Alpha vs Beta vs Sigma males - All bullshit?

[ZenAlex]

It's amusing just how many guys I see on the internet asking "Is this Alpha", "Am I Alpha if".

I cannot help but cringe whenever I hear men or anyone describing themselves as "alpha".

It just insinuates to me that they are too bothered about categorising themselves and then comparing themselves to others.

Why can't people just be happy as an individual rather than needing to put themselves in a particular category? I don't understand why they can't just live as an individual... nope, it has to be about finding out "which one of these am I?" and then posting their results on social media and expecting everyone else to give a shit? Just another psychological medallion to attach to your ego?!

Is it purely about just not being able to stop comparing themselves to others or needing to feel better than others?

I know in nature there is such a thing as a pack leader, silverback - Alpha Male. But all there is to being an Alpha Male is being a dominant male.

You could be dominant in one situation but be inferior in another, as per the diversity in society where it's not just all about whoever is the biggest gets to fuck all the bitches and get the first pick of the food. You could be Alpha in one situation, but be the Beta in another...

Yet people create their own descriptions about what makes you an alpha or beta male, and I've seen many different criteria to judge if someone is alpha or beta. As if you are Alpha or Beta wherever you go if you meet enough of the requirements.

To me when people refer to others as beta it's just them perceiving them as undesirable and/or inferior, and themselves as the superior as an "Alpha". 

Funny how so many of the people who describe themselves as Alpha give off massive insecurity vibes. It seems to me that insecurity is the main thing that leads people to concern themselves with being Alpha because to achieve Alpha status is the biggest ego booster and confirmation that you are better than everyone else.

Whether your Alpha or Beta who fucking cares? It's how satisfied you are with your life that matters. I don't really spend any time thinking about whether I am one or the other, but human psychology and behaviour interests me. 

I've also seen this new trend of "Sigma males" as well. Basically guys who want to be everything the Alpha male usually is except trying to give off a more "not giving a fuck" sort of vibe. Like a lone wolf Rambo sort of guy.

TL;DR - To me it all feels like too many people caring too much about how others perceive them.

 

[BlueOak]

Its an identity. How you perceive yourself. In this case to put someone ahead of others in a social context in their own mind.

[Carl-Richard]

The desire to typologize personality is not very scientific (which is the critique of things like MBTI). Personality traits tend to follow a normal distribution in the population (one bell-shaped curve in the middle of the distribution), which is why trait models (like Big 5) are more scientific, i.e. you can score low or high on a trait (e.g. dominance), but you're really never a "dominant type" (e.g. Alpha) or "submissive type" (e.g. Beta). If the traits instead followed a bimodal distribution (one peak on each extreme), then there is a better case for a typology (one such example would be biological sex).

[vizual]

@Carl-Richard The problem with big 5 though is that it’s quite rigid. While personality itself isn’t necessarily rigid, so there’s a discordance there. Because people can also consciously develop themselves. In terms the big5; a person with low conscientiousness can learn to become more conscientious if they desire to do so. Big5 does not explain any of these nuances at all, which makes it kind of useless because it’s just too superficial and lacks nuance.

In the theory of Mbti is hypothesized that people have an innate personality which has certain strengths and weaknesses. But that every type of personality can learn to do what the other can. For example; a person who is naturally extremely logic focused can learn to become empathetic toward others, and vice versa. The problem with this, in scientific terms, is that it makes it very hard to test for in a controlled environment. Meaning; a person with an introverted personality can become very extroverted in certain environment, while still being innately introverted.

[Preety_India]

Why is it so rigid? 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, vizual said:

The problem with big 5 though is that it’s quite rigid. While personality itself isn’t necessarily rigid, so there’s a discordance there.

I think "rigid" is a bit too loaded. It's just careful.

 

2 hours ago, vizual said:

In terms the big5; a person with low conscientiousness can learn to become more conscientious if they desire to do so. Big5 does not explain any of these nuances at all, which makes it kind of useless because it’s just too superficial and lacks nuance.

It doesn't seem like something that needs to be explained, but rather something that needs to be tested empirically, and it doesn't exactly help to point to MBTI in this regard considering how it's the least empirically sound model . Tbh, I think what MBTI is doing is explaining away their low construct validity 

[Reciprocality]

I don't even understand what the problem is, there is information and then we class it in various groups due to distinct characteristics.

So eh yes, there are alpha males and beta males and a million other classes if you discover the characteristics. This is self evident.

 

The question is not "if it is real" but what it means that it is real. The better scientist you are the more meaningful it becomes that alpha males and beta males exists. Can you find the gene? Can you align this map with another? If you can then its potential as a meaningful science grows exponentially.

[Roy]

It's mostly just silly internet lingo, don't invest too much stock into it. It doesn't really have to do that much with reality. If you go out and talk to people you'll find they are way more complicated than any label, identity, or map you could ascribe to them.

There is a disconnection that happens online vs real life where you notice things are far more subtle and dynamic. Be an individual and experience life and people in the raw. Connection to reality is found that way, not by maps.

[martins name]

There is obviously a distinction to make between gutsy/dominant males and cowardly/submisive males. Most people who criticize the alpha/beta distinction are betas who don't wanna own up to their weakness.
There is, however, as you point out, a conversation to be had about how we relate to this distinction. One problem in this area is how some people think this is the only personality axiom or that it's the one that matters the most. Other axioms include passion, love, self-acceptance, truthfulness, intelligence, groundedness, and awareness.
Another problem that you've correctly pointed out is how people are obsessed with identity and labels and that we shouldn't be so self-obsessed.

[SOUL]

Yea... trying to figure out whether they are alpha makes them what stage in spiral dynamics? BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

[Danioover9000]

@ZenAlex

On 21/03/2022 at 3:11 PM, ZenAlex said:

It's amusing just how many guys I see on the internet asking "Is this Alpha", "Am I Alpha if".

I cannot help but cringe whenever I hear men or anyone describing themselves as "alpha".

It just insinuates to me that they are too bothered about categorising themselves and then comparing themselves to others.

Why can't people just be happy as an individual rather than needing to put themselves in a particular category? I don't understand why they can't just live as an individual... nope, it has to be about finding out "which one of these am I?" and then posting their results on social media and expecting everyone else to give a shit? Just another psychological medallion to attach to your ego?!

Is it purely about just not being able to stop comparing themselves to others or needing to feel better than others?

I know in nature there is such a thing as a pack leader, silverback - Alpha Male. But all there is to being an Alpha Male is being a dominant male.

You could be dominant in one situation but be inferior in another, as per the diversity in society where it's not just all about whoever is the biggest gets to fuck all the bitches and get the first pick of the food. You could be Alpha in one situation, but be the Beta in another...

Yet people create their own descriptions about what makes you an alpha or beta male, and I've seen many different criteria to judge if someone is alpha or beta. As if you are Alpha or Beta wherever you go if you meet enough of the requirements.

To me when people refer to others as beta it's just them perceiving them as undesirable and/or inferior, and themselves as the superior as an "Alpha". 

Funny how so many of the people who describe themselves as Alpha give off massive insecurity vibes. It seems to me that insecurity is the main thing that leads people to concern themselves with being Alpha because to achieve Alpha status is the biggest ego booster and confirmation that you are better than everyone else.

Whether your Alpha or Beta who fucking cares? It's how satisfied you are with your life that matters. I don't really spend any time thinking about whether I am one or the other, but human psychology and behaviour interests me. 

I've also seen this new trend of "Sigma males" as well. Basically guys who want to be everything the Alpha male usually is except trying to give off a more "not giving a fuck" sort of vibe. Like a lone wolf Rambo sort of guy.

TL;DR - To me it all feels like too many people caring too much about how others perceive them.

 

   Don't forget the omega males and the delta males, also the romeo's.

[Danioover9000]

@SOUL

14 hours ago, SOUL said:

Yea... trying to figure out whether they are alpha makes them what stage in spiral dynamics? BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

   It's extremely important to figure out and understand not just an individual's ego development, cognitive and moral development, states, personality traits, and lines of development from different domains of life experiences, but also to understand a group or country's ego collective, and otger societal factors, that make it up. Otherwise we remain ignorant of that person or culture. How one understands these things is numerous enough to still work un creativity.

[SOUL]

5 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 It's extremely important to figure out and understand

...and it's so important to figure and understand if your beeeyyyyyytaahhhhh!

HAHA

[Ulax]

Ye dude, I reckon all these guys have mental health issues.

You become obsessed with status and hierarchies as a result of trauma, and a society that tells you that you can only get your needs met by being a player. Leo's vid on PUA is useful. All these guys are stuck in the idea that materialism will fulfil you.

They need depth psychotherapy or meds (if they have adhd)

Edited March 24, 2022 by Ulax

[Danioover9000]

@SOUL

6 hours ago, SOUL said:

...and it's so important to figure and understand if your beeeyyyyyytaahhhhh!

HAHA

   It is important. Half of the males in this world are clueless in whether they are alpha, beta, sigma, omega, romeos, gamma and deltas. That's a serious issue, just like how black/blue/red pill, MGTOW, and Incels are serious issues and considered ideologies, well they are misunderstood. Misunderstanding is what made those issues crop up.

[Danioover9000]

@Ulax

5 hours ago, Ulax said:

Ye dude, I reckon all these guys have mental health issues.

You become obsessed with status and hierarchies as a result of trauma, and a society that tells you that you can only get your needs met by being a player. Leo's vid on PUA is useful. All these guys are stuck in the idea that materialism will fulfil you.

They need depth psychotherapy or meds (if they have adhd)

   I think you meant the opposite, that society, mainly 1st world democracies, programmes young men that their needs are only met by becoming and being in tradition roles of men, or some roles related to either labour or knowledge work in an office environment. I don't think society encourages young men to become and be players and gigalos, in fact mostly the opposite.

[SOUL]

43 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@SOUL

   It is important. Half of the males in this world are clueless in whether they are alpha, beta, sigma, omega, romeos, gamma and deltas. That's a serious issue, just like how black/blue/red pill, MGTOW, and Incels are serious issues and considered ideologies, well they are misunderstood. Misunderstanding is what made those issues crop up.

Sounds like identity politics to me.... what's their pronouns?

[Danioover9000]

@SOUL

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Sounds like identity politics to me.... what's their pronouns?

   A lot more identity and emasculation, and a lot less politics.

[thisintegrated]

People would rather fall into a good identify than a bad one.

E.g. introversion can be interpreted as being "a loser" or "cool", and identifying as "sigma" just ensures you fall into the latter identity for yourself.  It's good and healthy to have positive identities to form for yourself.

 

That said, the beta/alpha/omega/gamma/sigma model is shit and no one should be using it.

Edited March 25, 2022 by thisintegrated

[SOUL]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@SOUL

   A lot more identity and emasculation, and a lot less politics.

It seems the issue stems from that they don't want to accept that there is a changing society. They want to stay attached to what they perceive in their imagination to be the 'roles' of a century ago but society doesn't ever stay the same, society is always changing.

If they had an open perspective they would see how they have been freed up from having to adhere to strict roles imposed on them by others under the guise of 'tradition'. Yet the changing society isn't requiring them to change if they don't want to. They can be whatever they want even a hybrid and there are plenty of potential partners who are seeking those supposed traditional roles or hybrids of them, Let's be honest, most people are hybrids.

They are just upset that everyone doesn't want to accept the traditional roles because they do. Of course, you will probably respond as if you think I don't understand them which is only you failing to understand that I do more than you can understand. I'm old enough to be raised seeing the shift happening real time and can appreciate that it's actually better for those who aren't attached to an imposed 'traditional' role, it's actually more free now.

The regressive mindset that has gripped many conservative causing them to thrash around in a frenzy of culture war histrionics has infected what was just normal disaffected young men struggling to find their way that has always happened. Yet now they have turned it into some ideological zealotry and waging a jihad against an imagined enemy... which is simply change. How can anyone hope to defeat change? it's impossible.

Oh... and everything is politics.