If you are the only Mind then why are you talking to others on this forum?

[zurew]

On 2022. 03. 15. at 0:39 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

I'm not sure I understand this part correctly.

Trying to put everything into a box or into a framework, even experience itself. Trying to makes sense of anything , just by doing the sensemaking itself is reductionistic. Thats why i think that becoming the experience itself  is the deepest you can go. Trying to makes sense of the existential nature of life, by using a set of metrics or by trying to make sense of it as an observer or as an outsider will always create a 'wall' between you and that particular thing which you want to make sense of.

The closest you can get to the nature of reality, is by becoming reality. Thats the only way you can know something existentially, every other way will just only see parts of reality.So if we use this logic, only by becoming infinite and then self-reflecting makes sense, if you try to find out what reality is as a finite self, you will only discover parts and not the whole, because as a finite self you have your own biases and limitations.

Just by becoming infinite you can realise what reality really is. Why is that? Because if you want to make sense of reality as a finite self, you will have some biases that will distort reality, and you will only see parts of it.By becoming infinite you don't have any bias, you can clearly see reality as it is.

Now i am going to ask you more questions to inquire further, you don't have to answer them if you don't want to.

Do you think, that every perspective has only a part of truth in it? Or do you think that Truth cannot be known?

If you go with the first one, the problem will be, that even this perspective, that 'every perspective has only a part of truth in it' will have only a part of truth in it if you want to make it to be true.

If you want to go with the second one, the question is, how do you know, that Truth cannot be known?

Or if you want to go with neither, then where do you want to go exactly, what is your stance?

What is exactly that make you think that you are more of a human rather than God? Whatever  method or exercise you are using to get to the conclusion that you are a human, you place that exercise/method above other ones, why is that?

It seems like, you are using a hierarchy here. You don't treat this problem as if every perspective would have the same level of truth in it. Thats good, nothing wrong with that, i am doing the same, i am just arriving at a different place. Whatever at the top of your Truth hierarchy, the real question is why do you place that particular thing there, what makes it more trustable compared to the other ones?

[Nivsch]

@Inliytened1 I think this is not enough. We cant hand wave the issue so fast. There is a deeper reason you want to still talk to others again and again and this is because you subconscious higher self doesnt fully agree with this realization, and tells you that solipsism is a half-baked realization and not the truth, and it will turn out to be not accurate at the next level of consciousness.

If you (not you personally but in general speaking) dont have nothing better to do than talking to "yourself" then you are bored so go on and expand your interest habbits.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[Gili Trawangan]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is a deeper reason you want to still talk to others again and again and this is because you subconscious higher self doesnt fully agree with this realization, and tells you that solipsism is a half-baked realization and not the truth

?

[Inliytened1]

15 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Inliytened1 I think this is not enough. We cant hand wave the issue so fast. There is a deeper reason you want to still talk to others again and again and this is because you subconscious higher self doesnt fully agree with this realization, and tells you that solipsism is a half-baked realization and not the truth, and it will turn out to be not accurate at the next level of consciousness.

If you dont have nothing better to do than talking to "yourself" then you are bored so go on and expand your interest habbits.

If that is what is true for you than that is what is true.  But I will push back and say that this is your ego pushing back against Truth.   If the ego knew the Truth directly it would be its doom.  That said, I digress because I have seen some of your posts in months past and I think it's better for you at this point if what I am saying isn't true.  It's better for your mental stability..  Good job in thinking for yourself.  

[kamwalker]

I mean I have yet to come across a person who operates in every day reality at infinite levels of consciousness. Not in person, not on YouTube, no where. The finite being still dominates because this is the only way to maintain the illusion. So that's why people still talk to one another regardless if they have the knowing of the illusion. 

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

Trying to put everything into a box or into a framework, even experience itself. Trying to makes sense of anything , just by doing the sensemaking itself is reductionistic. Thats why i think that becoming the experience itself  is the deepest you can go. Trying to makes sense of the existential nature of life, by using a set of metrics or by trying to make sense of it as an observer or as an outsider will always create a 'wall' between you and that particular thing which you want to make sense of.

The closest you can get to the nature of reality, is by becoming reality. Thats the only way you can know something existentially, every other way will just only see parts of reality.So if we use this logic, only by becoming infinite and then self-reflecting makes sense, if you try to find out what reality is as a finite self, you will only discover parts and not the whole, because as a finite self you have your own biases and limitations.

Just by becoming infinite you can realise what reality really is. Why is that? Because if you want to make sense of reality as a finite self, you will have some biases that will distort reality, and you will only see parts of it.By becoming infinite you don't have any bias, you can clearly see reality as it is.

You're assuming that the sober state is actually finite and that the psychedelic state is actually infinite. I will inform you that neither of these assumptions is true, so the rest of this reasoning is nonsense.

Quote

Now i am going to ask you more questions to inquire further, you don't have to answer them if you don't want to.

Do you think, that every perspective has only a part of truth in it? Or do you think that Truth cannot be known?

If you go with the first one, the problem will be, that even this perspective, that 'every perspective has only a part of truth in it' will have only a part of truth in it if you want to make it to be true.

If you want to go with the second one, the question is, how do you know, that Truth cannot be known?

Or if you want to go with neither, then where do you want to go exactly, what is your stance?

I can't answer to something vague like that. You need to provide a definition of truth first.

Quote

What is exactly that make you think that you are more of a human rather than God? Whatever method or exercise you are using to get to the conclusion that you are a human, you place that exercise/method above other ones, why is that?

I don't think that I am a human. I said it seems like I am living a human life from this human body, which doesn't necessarily contradict being God at the same time, or at least seeming so.

Although, God is an outlandish word, while human is more down-to-earth and you will understand it when you read it like everyone else, unlike the word God which probably means something to you that is different from me that is different from everyone else.

Quote

It seems like, you are using a hierarchy here. You don't treat this problem as if every perspective would have the same level of truth in it. Thats good, nothing wrong with that, i am doing the same, i am just arriving at a different place. Whatever at the top of your Truth hierarchy, the real question is why do you place that particular thing there, what makes it more trustable compared to the other ones?

How does it seem so?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You're assuming that the sober state is actually finite and that the psychedelic state is actually infinite. I will inform you that neither of these assumptions is true, so the rest of this reasoning is nonsense.

This message of yours is SO important so in your permission I will emphasize it here to make it push into the eyes of many more people and to contemplate it:

⚀⚃ You're assuming that the sober state is actually finite and that the psychedelic state is actually infinite. I will inform you that neither of these assumptions is true, so the rest of this reasoning is nonsense. ⚃⚀

Gesundheit2

The tendency to take psychedelics or any method result as more important than the sober state is a huge trap.

Sober state has also so much information from our subconscious more aware self we just overlook in a daily basis.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[TheSunKing]

This realization does not change my life whatsoever. Wouldn't God, upon waking up, make the dream a happy dream?

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

If that is what is true for you than that is what is true.  But I will push back and say that this is your ego pushing back against Truth.   If the ego knew the Truth directly it would be its doom.  That said, I digress because I have seen some of your posts in months past and I think it's better for you at this point if what I am saying isn't true.  It's better for your mental stability..  Good job in thinking for yourself.  

Hi just to say that the last sentence i wrote which sound provocative wasnt at all meant personly to you but only for general speaking, i edited it now. then sorry if it hurted.

Yes the ego is taking place I agree. But I think this is the case all the time with any spiritual "camp".

I hope this solipsism issue will settle here in this forum as time passes and the language will be adapted better and better to make the distincion between naive-solipsism ("you are literally alone and your mother doesnt have sensations as you has") and contrary to the (more) real thing as @nistake wrote couple of days in another conversation, which is not biased towards aloneness and make a room to say we are just all together and in the relative language nobody is alone (something like this at least in my interpretation of what I have read).

As long as we still emphasize the 'alone' side of the equation and neglect the 'together' side then we are still biased and this is the real ego game. With all the respect.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You're assuming that the sober state is actually finite and that the psychedelic state is actually infinite. I will inform you that neither of these assumptions is true, so the rest of this reasoning is nonsense.

How did u come to the conclusion that neither of those are true? So you are suggesting that the sober state is infinite and the psychedelic state is finite. Explain that, because that doesn't make much sense to me.

 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I can't answer to something vague like that. You need to provide a definition of truth first.

Truth: knowing what you actually are. We can start with that.

 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I don't think that I am a human. I said it seems like I am living a human life from this human body, which doesn't necessarily contradict being God at the same time, or at least seeming so.

Why do you place more value on your sober state compared to a psychedelic state? You are trying to call others out on placing more value on a psychedelic state but at the same time you are doing the same with sober state. That seemingness and doubt coming from a sober state. You are clearly playing the hierarchy game and the same time telling yourself ,that you are not.

All your logic and reason flies out the window, once you change radically your state. Again, you are trying to wrap this all up in logic, assuming you can. You haven't tried any serious psychedelic, and at the same time you are saying from your sober state, that this and that in your opinion can't be known. If you are serious enough you should try different approaches out.

The very 'i don't know if i can know what actually i am' notion  is coming from this sober state. Again you are placing more value on this one, compared to the other ones. All your tools that you are using are in wrapped in this state (your logic, using reason etc). But at the same time you are trying to tell yourself, that you don't put more value on this state than on the other ones.

Have you questioned ever, that 'reality is unknowable' or that 'I am unknowable' ? 

Asking again because you have dodged it twice now: How can you know, that 'I am unknowable' or that 'reality is unknowable'? On what basis you are saying that? Whatever base you are using for that, that is at the top of your truth hierarchy.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by zurew

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The tendency to take psychedelics or any method result as more important than the sober state is a huge trap.

So you are trying to suggest here, that all perspectives are having the same level of truth in them? All perspectives are equally True? Notice from what state you are saying that. You are using you sober state for that. So ultimately you are placing more value on your sober state.

WIth Using your sober state you are trying to makes sense of all the states and trying to judge them and figure them out.

 

[Nivsch]

17 minutes ago, zurew said:

So you are trying to suggest here, that all perspectives are having the same level of truth in them? All perspectives are equally True? Notice from what state you are saying that. You are using you sober state for that. So ultimately you are placing more value on your sober state.

WIth Using your sober state you are trying to makes sense of all the states and trying to judge them and figure them out.

 

No. 

What I am trying to say is that sober state is also very important and we can't just take a psychedelic and decide "This psychedelic reveals to us that X Y..." and make this more true than the sober state perspective.

Psychedelic X shows us a perspective X.

Psychedelic Y shows us a perspective Y.

Sober state shows us a perspective Z.

Meditation A shows us a perspective A.

And so on.

We can't just put one perspective above the others, because if we do that we make our biasies decide what is more important.

I dont know to say its perfectly euqal or not perfectly equal but we must take into account the variety of perspectives.

Let alone that a realization from one psychedelic will necessarily be distorted in SOME way by our desires when we build our truth model in our mind, after the raw experience, when during that phase, a retro logical mechanism is taking place and we can't just neutralize it.

Let alone (2) that our pre-assumptions and contemplations we do during the trip/method are necessarily influence in some way what we will get. We can't run from it and just neglect it away.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, TheSunKing said:

This realization does not change my life whatsoever. Wouldn't God, upon waking up, make the dream a happy dream?

Absolutely!!!! It makes it even BETTER once you get over the shock of the recontexualization of realizing you are God.  Because that's basically what realizing that others exist within your own Mind is.  (Again, the Godhead not the ego mind) It's the realization that you are God and this universe is all yours.  The bliss cannot be fathomed.

[zurew]

Just now, Nivsch said:

We can't just put one perspective above the others, because if we do that we make our biasies decide what is more important.

So we have to put this perspective above the other ones? You are trying to suggest here that every perspective has an element of truth in them. Thats why you don't dismiss any perspective, and then trying to make your model of reality and yourself from your sober state.

Making a model of reality won't work to get the full picture. You are trying play a puzzle game, as if reality was a puzzle. Trying to find its pieces and then trying to make a model using those pieces. Those pieces will be finite, so it will give you a finite model about reality and about yourself.

 

 

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, zurew said:

So we have to put this perspective above the other ones? You are trying to suggest here that every perspective has an element of truth in them. Thats why you don't dismiss any perspective, and then trying to make your model of reality and yourself from your sober state.

Making a model of reality won't work to get the full picture. You are trying play a puzzle game, as if reality was a puzzle. Trying to find its pieces and then trying to make a model using those pieces. Those pieces will be finite, so it will give you a finite model about reality and about yourself.

You can build a model every time a new from any perspective and then merge it all. Yes it will be exponentially more and more complicated until infinity.

Thats not a mistake.

To reduce infinity into "Your sensation is the only that exist and your mother doesnt have her own too" is so hasty, simplified, religiously-like rigid, and biased from here to australia and back.

The soup of emotions blended in these like statements shouts from the screen.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[zurew]

26 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You can build a model every time a new from any perspective and then merge it all. Yes it will be exponentially more and more complicated until infinity.

Thats not a mistake.

You are building your models from you sober state. Again you are putting more emphasis on this one compared on other ones.(so you are not doing what you claim to be doing - you are putting more emphasis on a certain perspective)

26 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You can build a model every time a new from any perspective and then merge it all. Yes it will be exponentially more and more complicated until infinity.

You can build you models as much as you want. You are trying to make sense of reality from a finite state. Using logic which is another finite tool you are using. Even if you could build an infinitely big model of reality you would  still need to make sense of it using your finite brain and logic. And then you can mistake your model of reality for reality. How well it will serve you?

26 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

To reduce infinity into "Your sensation is the only that exist and your mother doesnt have her own too" is so hasty, simplified, religiously-like rigid, and biased from here to australia and back.

Again, this kind of phrasing only make sense if you are trying to make sense of infinite state of consciousness with your finite brain.

Whats wrong with simplicity? What if your are trying to make things more complicated than the way they are? 

 

The ultimate trolling question i could ask you right now, that why you are placing more emphasis on your perspective compared to mine? Why do you want to downplay my perspective, if every perspective are the same and have the same importance?

Edited March 16, 2022 by zurew

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, zurew said:

You are building your models from you sober state

Right, but everyone does the same from his state whatever will be.

 

33 minutes ago, zurew said:

Even if you could build an infinitely big model of reality you would  still need to make sense of it using your finite brain and logic

Agree. but again, this is true also to everyone who build his model from another state.

 

34 minutes ago, zurew said:

Using logic

logic and emotions.

 

35 minutes ago, zurew said:

And then you can mistake your model of reality for reality

What EVERY state will make you do if you will rely only on it.

 

37 minutes ago, zurew said:

Whats wrong with simplicity?

Cannot be created without using emotions and logic.

 

38 minutes ago, zurew said:

why you are placing more emphasis on your perspective compared to mine?

I am not. We have to take your perspective into account just like mine.

[zurew]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What EVERY state will make you do if you will rely only on it.

Only if you assume that every state has the same level of significance. Not every perspective has the same relevance. For example lets just take psychology. Lets say you have a trauma and you want to solve it. You will go around your peers and ask everyone is they have the solution and you will give every take the same relevance or you will prioritize them and make a hierarchy from them? I assume you would make a hierarchy from them, and you would put a psychologist 's take on the top or at least near the top.

There are perspectives, that are more complete than others, and there are perspectives, that are including the other perspectives in them.What do you think , which perspective would include all the other perspectives? An infinite mind could do that.

Who or what could make sense of an infinite mind? The infinite mind itself.

Edited March 16, 2022 by zurew

[Nivsch]

I agree with you. Spiral dynamics for example shows us there is an hierarchy of perspectives.

But a perspective of a trip is still a perspective and you can't put it above another psychedel's trip perspective or above sober state perspective.

BUT a perspective which include the all three is a bit more elevated.

Your mind is always finite at every state.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Nivsch

[zurew]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

BUT a perspective which include the all three is a bit more elevated.

The queston is what qualities the 'highest' perspective would have. What is that can include every other possible perspectives? The infinite mind does.

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Your mind is always finite at every state.

I don't agree with this one. If your identity is infinite, it includes everything. How can you have an infinity identity with a finite mind?

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I agree with you. Spiral dynamics for example shows us there is an hierarchy of perspectives.

You seem  kind of like a stage yellow guy (forgive me for trying to put you in a box, its just an observation if we are trying to use the model, it is a sudden judgement i am placeing on you, so don't put that much emphasis on this take). Trying to put a lot of emphasis on other perspectives, i respect that, especially if we are talking about every-day problems. But when it comes to this reality problem, i don't think its the best approach to have.

Edited March 17, 2022 by zurew