Husseinisdoingfine

Vaush's Ukraine segment.

162 posts in this topic

@Fleetinglife I meant Russian Unity *. The source that I knew this info from is non-English and I confused the 2 parties. 

Quote

Probably for some as a punishment for collaboration with the Nazi invasion and occupying Nazi client state the Reichskommesariat of the Free State of Ukraine, as the siege of the port of Sevastopol was a crucial geostrategic threat for the Soviet Military and Navy, and it remained so after post-war international order and to secure the reach of the Soviet influence in its nearby republics. 

Probably thought that in the case of another threat of the Soviet Union they couldn't be trusted to remain present as a majority in such an important and crucial geostrategic location for the Soviet Union and its military reach and influence in the nearby republics and region because of the fervor in which they showed their past collaborative efforts with those who were direct enemies to the Soviet state during the time of extreme political crisis and upheaval for the very idea of a USSR.

Yeah pretty much. That's what happened to many ethnic populations in different regions. 

35 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

No doubt. I imagine what its level of development was beforehand.

I meant that Ukraine had a short lived independence post WW1, an independence where Crimea enjoyed autonomy and chose to be a part of Ukraine. That of course until the Polish and the Bolsheviks tore the country apart. I honestly don't know how much Crimea developed (excluding the military aspect) in the interwar years. 

38 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

No doubt the election result after the referendum was skewed to ensure a supermajority at any cost because they had to go through that quickly in order to seize the opportunity to secure the peninsula during the political crisis in Ukraine, but even that said I would estimate if a referendum would have been held in regular conditions I would say that large part and a majority of the people there, given the current poll trends in the last couple of years, would still have been voting yes, given the situation at the time in Ukraine, to be incorporated as part of Russia.

I generally do not believe polls on political subjects. Unless the respective agency enjoys economical independence, is not funded by external political entities and has apolitical members, I don't buy into polls. Lavanda was funded by the US, so for me it has lost its credibility. Not saying that all polls that come from such an entity are bs, but that you can't know for sure how much the results were manipulated.  Also I don't see the necessity of a military intervention, if Crimea could have been glued to Russia only through a referendum, if in reality the majority of the population wanted to join Russia. A neutral UN-backed referendum could have been held, and nobody could've legally contested Russian authority over Crimea afterwards. I don't remember any organic pro Russian annexation protests being held before 2014 in Crimea, but that could just be me. 

53 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

Well, he was of Ukrainian descent after all and wanted to signal an ideological break from the legacy of Stalin's policies in the USSR, so I don't personally know and can't be sure I haven't dwelt enough in the history of his life and biography, I just know a few events and details about him here and there.

I tend to lightly believe that it was a symbolic gesture not because of his personality, but because of security reasons and because people at the time didn't think that the USSR would fall. I'm not entirely sure why this was done, nor do most people. But I think this decision wasn't exclusively Khrushchev's to make, so there might be more variables that contributed to that. 

As a side to note to all of this Russia-Ukraine thingy... I find it sad not only that people will die and stuff.. but that the real enemies for us all are not addressed,  those being climate change and the deep of state of unconsciousness most of us spend our life in.  

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3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

I meant Russian Unity *. The source that I knew this info from is non-English and I confused the 2 parties. 

Aah! I don't know about them, thanks for sharing, I will check it out.

3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

Yeah pretty much. That's what happened to many ethnic populations in different regions. 

Yes, unfortunately during those tragic brutal reprisal eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth time born out of lack of mutual understanding and tolerance, but some other's elsewhere profited from that, like my great grandfathers on both sides of the family, who joined and enlisted in the communist partisan guerilla fighters during war-time, and later were compensated by the newly founded communist state by offering to colonize them in abandoned land or houses in the more ''prime real-estate'' northern provinces left behind by the native German settlers in exchange for their own land back home where they came from, not all of them took them up on the offer, but some did. Anyways you can see how a conflict of interest or bias then might exist then on my part when it comes to this issue xD:D, but irony aside I would personally like more if the Germans perhaps stayed because we would have a more culturally diverse, tolerant, curious and rich population pool here for even fostering and cultivating economic bonds with other Germans abroad for themselves and perhaps for their good and capable Serb neighbors as well to get into, even though it would sure take a lot of time to heal the post-war traumas and wounds inflicted by each population on each other and to come to a place of mutual understanding and tolerance.

3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

I meant that Ukraine had a short-lived independence post WW1, an independence where Crimea enjoyed autonomy and chose to be a part of Ukraine. That of course until the Polish and the Bolsheviks tore the country apart. I honestly don't know how much Crimea developed (excluding the military aspect) in the interwar years. 

Yeah, I read somewhere brief about that but not enough, I assume they probably felt and thought they were the same shared heirs of the same Cossacks and their regions and provinces.

3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

I generally do not believe polls on political subjects. Unless the respective agency enjoys economical independence, is not funded by external political entities and has apolitical members, I don't buy into polls. Lavanda was funded by the US, so for me it has lost its credibility. Not saying that all polls that come from such an entity are bs, but that you can't know for sure how much the results were manipulated.  Also I don't see the necessity of a military intervention, if Crimea could have been glued to Russia only through a referendum, if in reality the majority of the population wanted to join Russia. A neutral UN-backed referendum could have been held, and nobody could've legally contested Russian authority over Crimea afterwards. I don't remember any organic pro Russian annexation protests being held before 2014 in Crimea, but that could just be me. 

Thanks for sharing this perspective and background about them so I will have to check more into that! Yeah, I get your perspective and understand some of your points of the background and possibly better execution alternatives in the way the referendum, if decided legally to be called upon and already held, could have been handled more transparently and with more integrity and openness backing the contested results. I share some of your sentiment regarding skepticism and critical and neutral observer questions over it, but I still think the Ukrainian leadership needs to themselves step up and reach some sort of deal over it with the Russians and the Russian state and not play this PR game for the Western media and audience and domestically, that ironically Serbs and Serbian leadership also do for Kosovo, by declaratively parroting and sloganizing that Crimea is a sovereign part and integral part of the territorial integrity of Ukraine while ignoring or downplaying realities on the ground there.

3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

I tend to lightly believe that it was a symbolic gesture not because of his personality, but because of security reasons and because people at the time didn't think that the USSR would fall. I'm not entirely sure why this was done, nor do most people. But I think this decision wasn't exclusively Khrushchev's to make, so there might be more variables that contributed to that. 

Yes, most likely I already wrote in part about this sharing that perspective as well, and yes of course the Politburo is the one entity you need to appeal to in the central command of Moscow for making such and going through with such decisions of state importance.

3 hours ago, Ryan_047 said:

As a side to note to all of this Russia-Ukraine thingy... I find it sad not only that people will die and stuff.. but that the real enemies for us all are not addressed,  those being climate change and the deep of state of unconsciousness most of us spend our life in.

Yes, sadly the same, this kind of stuff when they suddenly break out as a major world crisis serves as distractions for people to dwell on and project on their own fears and dark uncertainties about their own personal future and prospects on out of a selfish survivalist fear that this crisis happening to some other stranger people, not your own people you know, are close to and have friendships or relationships with or collective, neighborhood or professional or work solidarity bonds with, elsewhere impact on their own prospects to thrive, survive and prosper in relative peace and stability in their areas, that will either impact and threaten their ability to maintain the habits and routines of their own daily life that they got used to and felt entitled to and the living standards of that they got used to or threaten their opportunities for them to achieve and realize their material or non-material desires, wishes and plans for the lives they already established there and or have plans to achieve or realize. In other words, to put it bluntly, they only mostly heavily fear it or dread it because it may directly or indirectly cause somebody else external to break their own little piggie banks that they have gotten used to saving in all their resources they gathered up for the future, oink, oink, squeak, squeak :D

Edited by Fleetinglife

''society is culpable in not providing free education for all and it must answer for the night which it produces. If the soul is left in darkness sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.” ― Victor Hugo, Les Misérables'

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On 2022-01-27 at 0:02 AM, Leo Gura said:

 

Of course none of this makes Russia some good guy. Putin is being authoritarian. But I don't see him as some kind of Hitler. He's too smart for that.

 

Methods that were used recently to put the opposition leader Navalnyj (to take just one example) in prison reminds of a Tyrant.

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On 1/26/2022 at 2:47 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's like if you lived in house #11 and I was bribing all your neighbors to join a club that was called, "Let's rape the guy in house #11.

That is too fuckin funny.


"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن ليو رسول الله

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أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن ليو رسول الله

*This account is no longer active as the user has decided to leave the forum*

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5 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

4:31: Non-starter argument as the main reason for the world's sudden suspicion and distrust in 2021 for Russia's sudden military build-up along its Western border, since the whole annual "troop buildup" happens because Russia conducts mil. drills in its Western Mil. District ever Dec./Jan.

5:35: ''Cool military club that I don't like" lol okay set up as precisely as deterrence, neutralizing and anti-USSR, later anti-Russian military alliance admitting whole countries and their territorial regions right next to Russia's border with no input from Russia or negotiation with Russia of what are some of the limits or conditions of what the anti-Russian military alliance might be able to do or setup on countries directly bordering and sharing a large geostrategically and the economically relevant border with Russia with the connection of it's most economically developed regions to Western countries.

I get the feeling when listening to ex-Vox journo Johnny Harris up until this point that he is not even trying to appeal to or make any factual, historical arguments up until now and appeal to rather an already pre-conceived notion of the demographic of the viewer watching this video of already holding caricature beliefs in their head and vague moralistic scorn and judgment of Russia being as about, on the whole, a rogue authoritarian terror state on the international stage, something to the equivalent of a stereotypical picture often being painted of North Korea, with an evil dictator with an evil personality running it at the helm, which is the main problem if you remove the evil leader and their evil personalities from the country it will then just naturally turn into a healthy and functioning representative democracy as the citizenry and civil society is free from their terror - in short, classic liberal prejudices about the country.

6:00: So where are now at this point in the discourse, where the Russian demand of not re-nuclearizing again an unstable, divided country like Ukraine after it handed out its nuclear capacity to the RF after 1994 after it split and got independent from the USSR or for that matter any country in close proximity with it bordering Russia the largest nuclear-armed power and state on the planet is seen as nuts by the enlightened western leaders and US liberal political commentators. Boy, I get the feeling the starting line of negotiation has been really pushed by these leaders, journalists, and commentators in the last few years.

6:28: ''I am not going to allow other countries to join your Alliance because it makes me feel uncomfortable'' - literally the exact same line repeat of pitfalls, bias, and myopia of Leo's club theory. I wonder if Johnny would feel the same as on the prospects of Venezuela joining CSTO or SCO in the US's tradition of an fp front yard.

7:00 onwards - He is starting to slowly talk more sensibly and being slowly more grounded in actual current field realities there is a position to start making his arguments when he is actually engaging and dwelling on the complex intertwinings of past history and cultural ties of the whole region.

9:30: Glad he is saying this more upfrontly with some of the underlying West's motivations and intentions, though he forgets to mention the boost for the profits and market competitiveness, access and maintenance of monopoly formations of the military industry in Western countries as well.

11:03: Sources NBC and AP news. 

11:54: Countries decision being down on joining NATO happens within the sovereign vacuum of their ''democracies'' and the decision of their democratically elected leaders representing the people's voice regarding that issue it has to take no further geopolitical and geostrategic further security considerations outside that vacuum of where the decision making is ultimately carried out and sanctified.

In short, to sum up, the point I am trying to make across to expose a problem which I see in the way this argument is being presented, 60+% Ukrainians that have insecurities, are having second thoughts and are being afraid and terrorized of Russia's military and other influence in the region (also probably being amplified by some pro-Western leadership and the media which's interest align with profiting off that view rather signal stark cultural differences and views in Ukraine and about Ukraine, since it's a close fifty to-fifty split, rather than a genuine supermajority fear and antagonism by the majority of the population towards Russia and Russians in general) in the region and in their country doesn't justify or should be used as cover for putting US Patriot missile systems under NATO patronage in Ukraine with an aim to target Russia's military reach, re-nuclearizing it's armament and flying F-35 Lightings sorties over Russia's border or have actual members of a fascist revisionist paramilitary battalion included as members and parts of the official Ukrainian Army in multiethnic country, where Russian's and Ukranians live side by side, such as Ukraine, when they join and if they want to be a part of the NATO military alliance - there needs to be some vetting and screening process and negotiations with Russia for the pre-requsite of wanting to join that US-led military alliance.

12:42: No mention of the prior history and geostrategic relevance of Crimea for the Russian military which we here discussed.

15:09: Commendable good faith approach to the analogy made in the article I have personally had a problem with and criticized here as being too ethnonationalistic from the perspective it was written from and in historicist arguments in which it used and hegemonically oriented towards Ukraine as a small brother, in which neither arguably is the contemporary US towards Canada or contemporary Germany towards Austra and in denial about the stark cultural differences despite that that have insisted between Russians and Ukrainians and the still unresolvement and pacifying of unstable energy which of their past bloody conflicts, abuses, repressions and antagonisms in the past, regardless of the argument that it profited and was helped and stoked by some outside forces and influences in some historic instances.

Plus that article, as far as I heard some unverified rumors, was in large part of basically composed and heavily relied on using and reading texts in Russian historical archives as main sources and constructing sentences around some of the assertions in them with him presenting a few of his own arguments and own idiosyncratic conclusions and assertions about them, In other, words he didn't come up with it as a historical essay completely from his own head, but heavily relied around on Russian archives in constructing it and on advice from some pro-establishment and Russian nationalist historian experts.

17:00: I don't personally like this ex-boyfriend and girlfriend analogy tbh. It objectifies too much Ukraine on a materialistic level as a commodity for other world powers to court over and tries to compete over and win their heart around - as the thought and assocaiton pattern unfortunately logically follows by suing this as an analogy of the situation, and she can only side or betrow herself to either one like she has to engage in must some sort of relationship with or even be married away to the best suitor that pops up for her, like it's a bidding contest around her and the highest bid must be accepted and not have the ability, available decision or opportunity to outright reject them all and have her own sovereignty, or autonomous, a self-choosing path of development and forward not having to get married or courted around by either of the pre-selected suitors and instead maybe find her own path, neither must engaging in some sort of a relationship with a forwarded suitor nor choosing to marry herself to either of each one.

Really, with an instance of showing these media images and reports from the perspective of US mainstream corporate media on the issue as some sort of atmospheric narrative backdrop to this whole story he is telling, this whole video is like par excellence example of an Americanized liberal bubble on this world issue and I see a lot of bias of many American based journos or commentators often speaking on emotionally tense and complex issues for the US military of how it sees this issue from its perspective from this said bubble.

In my personal opinion, I think, Leo has shown with his perspectives and comments regarding some of these issues unique immunity and awareness and wariness of the existence of this said, Americanization bubble, and how often it is unrecognized as trying to present itself as universal, rational, truth and scientific culture in itself while being oblivious to its own biases, pitfalls and lack of seeing other's opposed perspective's and fears clearly. In short, he never fell, unlike some others, deep into this Americanized bubble view of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

Russian Military Strategic Commands Map.png

Edited by Fleetinglife

''society is culpable in not providing free education for all and it must answer for the night which it produces. If the soul is left in darkness sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.” ― Victor Hugo, Les Misérables'

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This gives you the Russian perspective which Americans are missing:

Putin make some very reasonable points. The guy is not some madman. He's logical and pragmatic.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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On 1/28/2022 at 8:05 AM, Hsinav said:

Methods that were used recently to put the opposition leader Navalnyj (to take just one example) in prison reminds of a Tyrant.

Of course. But that does not justify NATO's Eastward expansion. That is an internal matter.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course. But that does not justify NATO's Eastward expansion. That is an internal matter.

So what is NATO including America supposed to do?

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10 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

So what is NATO including America supposed to do?

Give Russia some guarantees to stop expansion and placement of missiles near Russian boarder.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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69% of Ukrainian people want to join NATO. Why should Russia have a say in its right to self determination? There are no US missiles in a neighbouring border of Russia

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Russia was given promises that NATO would not expand.

Do you want to keep kicking a hornet's nest? Then at least don't act surprised when they get pissed off at you. Russia has tolerated many waves of NATO expansion already. How much more do you want them to tolerate? Russia has drawn a line at Ukraine.

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There are no US missiles in a neighbouring border of Russia

I don't think that's true.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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I think an important part of the point Vaush was trying to make is that Ukraine wants to be part of NATO. And that the demands from Russia are unacceptable. Especially those relating to Poland (a member of the European Union now).


"When you reach the top of the mountain, keep climbing."

Zen Proverb

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From Russia's POV it makes sense that they want to keep these countries in Eastern Europe as buffer states.

But it seems ironic to me that the reason Ukraine wants to join NATO is precisely because of Russia's response to this threat.


"When you reach the top of the mountain, keep climbing."

Zen Proverb

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@Leo Gura Why does America treat Russia unfairly? 

It also economically screwed up Argentina and other South American states. 

America is a wonderful country. But what? Why does make so many problems? Just stop the expansionist mentality and put all your missiles in America. Fix your medical, schooling and government system.

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2 hours ago, ItsNick said:

From Russia's POV it makes sense that they want to keep these countries in Eastern Europe as buffer states.

But it seems ironic to me that the reason Ukraine wants to join NATO is precisely because of Russia's response to this threat.

yup that's pretty funny

what about the EU, could the Ukraine join the EU or would then Russia also threaten invasion?

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5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

 

Very great video @Leo Gura, nice find. I never liked it when Western media types make out people such as; The Presidents of China, Russia, N.Korea, etc... to be some crazy unhinged Lunatics who only want war and conquest. Meanwhile the United States supports regimes such as the House of Saud.

I think the most shocking part of this video was the 4:36 minute mark, really reveals the chauvinistic attitude of American types.


أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن ليو رسول الله

*This account is no longer active as the user has decided to leave the forum*

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