What do you guys think about Todd V’s game / style?

[Migue Lonas]

Would like to discuss him, since personally he has taught me a lot but I wonder if there are better teachers out there for me and whether he’s keeping me stuck.

@Leo Gura and the big boys into game, what are your thoughts?

Not sure if I’m getting this list right but from my short observation, some members: @Federico del pueblo @aurum @Lyubov , maybe @flowboy ?

Some context: I think my biggest bottleneck is the lack of brutal strenght and the truly ”not give a fuck”, when it comes to the most hottest girls. It also conflicts a bit with the spiritual work we are doing but ultimately we are supposed to transcend and include, right?

But speaking of which, generally the more scumbag, narcissist, and manipulative you are, the easier it is with the hottest girls. On one hand I absolutely love the hottest girls, on the other hand, what is the line of scumbagry am I willing to cross?

I would like to reach the ultimate abundance where I truly deep down from my guts level don’t give a fuck if one hot girl drops out of my rotation because I know I can get one back anytime.

I have also started to give this a lot of thought since you guys have been talking about it a lot in the forum: location. I live in Helsinki, which is far from the top locations when it comes to going hard in game. Also, the other problem when it comes to Helsinki, is probably that Finnish girls are not generally really the hottest out there.

But let’s not ignore the original question. What are your thoughts on Todd V and are there any teachers that could perhaps teach me more about the brutal strenght? Or perhaps, is my problem really just location since I can’t get to the true abundance of not truly giving a fuck if I lose a really hot girl. It stings, which Leo would probably say is natural, due to the emotional connection built overtime. But I what if it stings even before the emotional connection built due to scarcity? Could it really be the location’s scarce over hot girls, that is holding me the most back?

Hope it wasn’t too much of a messy text. If you have any confusions, let me know and I’ll clear em.

[Federico del pueblo]

@Migue Lonas

This one is hard to answer because there are so many factors at play.

Let me start like this: Todd definitely has a very effective game style. His style is a perfect example of "high value game" and this definitely yields results. 

He is smart and eloquent and loves language and appreciates the subtleties of language (is this true for you too?).

So basically: If you are able to do game the way Todd does game then I'm certain that you will regularly get really hot girls.

But there are cons to Todd's teachings and style of game.

First of all Todd doesn't really teach inner a game a whole lot. He says he does and he kind of does sometimes, but it just doesn't go very deep, so if you have some significant insecurities or past traumas that still creep up then imo you need additional advice from somewhere/someone else.

I don't really know that one teacher that I could name you for that purpose, I just have my own techniques for "inner work" that I gathered over the years which I do on top of learning (technical) game (let me know if you want me to share them).

Only you can answer that location based question as I don't really know the situation in Helsinki, but ofc if you can't have acces to hot girls it will be hard to develop a sense of abundance, so maybe you want to get in touch with some of your local PUAs and inquire where they find their girls, maybe there are some elite night clubs and you can gain access to them by getting to know certain people etc.

But let's get back to Todd's game style.

What Todd doesn't address is the subject of vulnerability and insecurities etc. and it's kind of interesting because Todd himself is kind of exemplary in many ways, he is very skilled at many things, was one of the best soccer players in college, is an engineer and started learning game when he was 18 in college. The ONLY thing that he was actually lacking as a young dude was good game, but he probably got even that by the age of 21 or 22.

I'm saying all of this because it kinda suggests that Todd has been used to being a high value guy from an early age on (early 20s) and thus I can understand why it might not have been all too hard for him to adapt this "I'm the price/high value" style of game.

But other guys have hang ups and trauma and are really scared and feel really unworthy of and inadequate for the hot girls. But now imagine a guy like this tries to adapt this style of game that communicates "I'm sure I can have you, I'm just uncertain whether YOU are up to MY calibre". This can be very hard to pull off and can probably backfire psychologically a lot.

And now combine these facts with what I described above, i.e. that Todd rarely teaches any inner game except for "write down a list of your ten best qualities and the top 5 qualities you seek in a girl".

This might simply not work well for a lot of guys.

It would probably be easier to first adapt a style of game that's more congruent to where you're currently at, sort of admitting certain flaws and insecurities, not trying to constantly be more high value than the girl, but instead be a bit more "natural" and just fun, cool, friendly and so on.

I mean Todd says things like "because then I'd be afraid you'd be stalking me everyday" to which he receives a shit test like "why would I stalk you?" to which he - being like a 5 out of 10 looks wise - replies "I mean...have you looked at me??!!?!! ;)" and this with a girl who's a 9 or 10.

Now imagine a guy who has unresolved trauma or severe insecurities trying to pull that of. He might get depressed after doing this for two years.

So to sum up:

If you already feel like you're the attractive high value guy but need more technical understanding of how high value game works then I think Todd's teachings will serve you very well.

If you have more serious psychological issues but still want to get good at Todd's style of game, do some additional inner work to resolve your issues, like self doubts etc, and only try to change your behaviour step by step so it doesn't get overwhelming, only ever do 10% new things and be 90% your current self.

If you manage to master  a style of game like Todd teaches it and also have your shit together in life, you will be successful with hot girls for sure.

[Raze]

It expects you to have a lot of mental capacity to remember a ton of tips and rules which is especially difficult when talking to someone. You’ll get in your head and do worse. He also teaches more about adapting his style as opposed to finding your own, the problem with this is if it doesn’t come naturally to you, it’s very difficult, and you’ll attract girls based on that style you put on but in the long run you can’t maintain it. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Raze

[aurum]

@Migue Lonas

I did a bootcamp with Todd. He definitely can teach you a lot about cold approach.

@Federico del pueblo summed it up pretty well, his style is a little more “James Bond” than a guy like Rsd Tyler. Whereas a guy like Tyler likes to go crazy and self-depreciate a lot, Todd tends to keep things super chill, doesn’t talk much and focuses more on being “cool” than fun. He likes to use fancy vocabulary and eloquent sentences to reinforce that he is high value and intellectually superior to the girl.

Personally, I don’t resonate too much with his style of doing things. It works well as long as you hold the frame, but can easily come off as taking yourself too serious / arrogant. Someone like Tyler, who is just genuinely letting loose and having fun, can undermine his whole frame and make it look stupid. There was a free tour video where this actually happened, Tyler pretty much obliterated Todd.

Another potential critique of Todd’s teachings is that he doesn’t mention anything about social circle and tends to be dismissive when it comes to deeper inner game / spiritual work. So if you want to learn those things, don’t go to Todd. Go to Todd because you want an analytical breakdown of how cold approach works.

If you want “brute strength”, you’re probably better off learning from a guy like Rsd Derek. That guy is aggressive. But I don’t know if he even still teaches. 

In terms of your location dilemma, I’d definitely move to the area with most attractive girls you can find if you’re serious about committing to learning game. If you’re not serious about it, forget it. You’re better off reaping the benefits that come from a small city/town environment. Both have pros and cons, so I’d only go big city if you’re certain this is a top priority for you right now, or if you have some other reason you want to move there.

[Lyubov]

Todd is actually the only PUA that I ever bought something from. He released a video course called "The System" back in 2018 and it was the only time I ever bought anything like that. I watched it all so I feel like I have a pretty good idea about the guy in terms of his online content. I never really got so much into RSD content but he was the only one that I kinda resonated with 3/4 years ago cause he didn't seem so tryhard and was just kinda a chill guy. Today I'm actually mixed on him. While most PUAs I think are total and complete jokes, I hold him to some esteem and think he has some helpful content to offer but it's quite limited depending on the scope of your path and how developed you are in other areas. Getting good with women is a highly personal process that will have all sorts of unique challenges and require all sorts of different measures depending on the guy and where he's coming from. 

Todd has a very cognitive approach where he has really made some pretty vast, sometimes overthought models of cold approach. Maybe it's your thing but I've dabbled with it and it's not really helpful to me how cognitive his approach is. I wouldn't say I didn't learn anything from him though. He does have some useful stuff to share. I would say his infield breakdowns were his best content. He runs a sort of dry, verbally heavy, clever, low energy form of game. He places a lot of emphasis on cognitively decoding all sorts of dynamics going on behind his words and all sorts of theories built up around what he means when he says x or y or when this or that happens. If there is even the slightest language barrier or cultural communication difference between you and the woman, half his content went into all this detail for nothing, women whose first language isn't English won't be able to appreciate the verbals he teaches. Up until then I was sorta trying to be more high energy and force something but with him it was kinda more about taking it slow and not having to really act, just focusing on these various stages, what you say and queues to move things forward like he describes in his course. I gleaned a lot of insights about not having to try and get into some state when I was following his work and just sorta be chill and focus on the conversation. I left behind a lot of his models and just found myself sorta naturally embodying / doing some of what he was trying to teach when I was less trying to control my emotions in a set. 

He comes off sorta cold, guarded and un-holistic. He's super heavily geared towards teaching outer game. He only has one infield where I believe he purposefully made a fool of himself. I don't like that he doesn't seem so vulnerable to me. Maybe he's just a cold guy? I get the sense he heavily tailors his content to look like a total badass. I'm not doubting that he can't get laid for sure, just that he doesn't really go into all the emotions and how messy and laborious this process can get. He's very impersonal in a way. He's a results oriented "get the job done without much feelings, use your mind" kinda guy. He's in NYC and has kinda the wall street / cutthroat vibes going. He's a decent guy just very, very stage orange. You can learn some technical stuff from him for sure; if you were to slowly implement some of his stuff into your routine and social situations you may find it helps some but there's a sort of holistic inner growth aspect I like in my personal development that he is greatly lacking in his content. James Marshall on the other hand has always been my favorite PUA because he's the opposite of this, or rather he kinda has a nice mix of inner and outer and even more advanced content on relationships and sex and more meta discussions on attracting women. I've never bought a program from James though so I'm only talking about his free content.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Lyubov

[RedLine]

14 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Todd is actually the only PUA that I ever bought something from. He released a video course called "The System" back in 2018 and it was the only time I ever bought anything like that. I watched it all so I feel like I have a pretty good idea about the guy in terms of his online content. I never really got so much into RSD content but he was the only one that I kinda resonated with 3/4 years ago cause he didn't seem so tryhard and was just kinda a chill guy. Today I'm actually mixed on him. While most PUAs I think are total and complete jokes, I hold him to some esteem and think he has some helpful content to offer but it's quite limited depending on the scope of your path and how developed you are in other areas. Getting good with women is a highly personal process that will have all sorts of unique challenges and require all sorts of different measures depending on the guy and where he's coming from. 

Todd has a very cognitive approach where he has really made some pretty vast, sometimes overthought models of cold approach. Maybe it's your thing but I've dabbled with it and it's not really helpful to me how cognitive his approach is. I wouldn't say I didn't learn anything from him though. He does have some useful stuff to share. I would say his infield breakdowns were his best content. He runs a sort of dry, verbally heavy, clever, low energy form of game. He places a lot of emphasis on cognitively decoding all sorts of dynamics going on behind his words and all sorts of theories built up around what he means when he says x or y or when this or that happens. If there is even the slightest language barrier or cultural communication difference between you and the woman, half his content went into all this detail for nothing, women whose first language isn't English won't be able to appreciate the verbals he teaches. Up until then I was sorta trying to be more high energy and force something but with him it was kinda more about taking it slow and not having to really act, just focusing on these various stages, what you say and queues to move things forward like he describes in his course. I gleaned a lot of insights about not having to try and get into some state when I was following his work and just sorta be chill and focus on the conversation. I left behind a lot of his models and just found myself sorta naturally embodying / doing some of what he was trying to teach when I was less trying to control my emotions in a set. 

He comes off sorta cold, guarded and un-holistic. He's super heavily geared towards teaching outer game. He only has one infield where I believe he purposefully made a fool of himself. I don't like that he doesn't seem so vulnerable to me. Maybe he's just a cold guy? I get the sense he heavily tailors his content to look like a total badass. I'm not doubting that he can't get laid for sure, just that he doesn't really go into all the emotions and how messy and laborious this process can get. He's very impersonal in a way. He's a results oriented "get the job done without much feelings, use your mind" kinda guy. He's in NYC and has kinda the wall street / cutthroat vibes going. He's a decent guy just very, very stage orange. You can learn some technical stuff from him for sure; if you were to slowly implement some of his stuff into your routine and social situations you may find it helps some but there's a sort of holistic inner growth aspect I like in my personal development that he is greatly lacking in his content. James Marshall on the other hand has always been my favorite PUA because he's the opposite of this, or rather he kinda has a nice mix of inner and outer and even more advanced content on relationships and sex and more meta discussions on attracting women. I've never bought a program from James though so I'm only talking about his free content.

Man that comment is so good. I agree the pick up tools that Todd teach us are wonderful but he misses a lot of stuff about internal game, he is too rational. 

What do you think about Max?, he is the opposite of Todd, very natural game. These two are my favourite teachers and complement each other very well. 

Another one I like is Karisma King, he does not have a lot of infields though. He ranks James Marshall on an intermediate level haha

 

 

 

[Federico del pueblo]

22 hours ago, aurum said:

@Migue Lonas

There was a free tour video where this actually happened, Tyler pretty much obliterated Todd.

@aurum that's so interesting, I'd love to see that but I guess the video can't be found anywhere anymore, right?

Anyway, do you still remember some details of that, like how Tyler managed to do that?

[Lyubov]

6 hours ago, RedLine said:

Man that comment is so good. I agree the pick up tools that Todd teach us are wonderful but he misses a lot of stuff about internal game, he is too rational. 

What do you think about Max?, he is the opposite of Todd, very natural game. These two are my favourite teachers and complement each other very well. 

Another one I like is Karisma King, he does not have a lot of infields though. He ranks James Marshall on an intermediate level haha

 

 

 

I never really watched RSD Max. I wasn't a fan of his intonation / public speaking and of what little content I saw of his it always felt sorta like "visualize success" generic self help psychology repackaged for pick up. I can't go in depth on his content nor really make my mind up on hi, cause I've seen maybe one or two videos of his. Someone else here probably knows much more about him, if he still even teaches pick up. 

Ranking PUAs is silly. I've noticed a lot of these American PUAs, especially those running game in "elite" stage orange cities think because they have mapped out all this shit with fancy concepts and lingo that there is some level of mastery being displayed when they see their little model on display in some set of theirs, confirmation bias. The truth is they are just overlaying a lot of their bullshit onto it and are getting results because they are exposing themselves to massive experience and are half way competent enough not to be a total creep, get in their own way, believe in themselves, not be such a wimp, being fun and chill, going after what they want, etc. They have to sorta buy into their own BS to have the confidence to get with more women and sell their program.

If he's ranking them based on how they teach and what teaching style he prefers sure, but it's not really possible to really rank them on how good they are with women. You can really only do this roughly by if they are or are not getting voluntarily-regularly laid. What type of women they get with and how frequently is more subjective. I can tell you the type of women I've seen James approach and get numbers from in his infields are my type so maybe he's doing okay? I haven't really watched a whole lot of his stuff, I don't really follow any PUA closely at all, so I'm not gonna simp for him here or anything. Just what I've loosely observed in a handful of videos I've seen of his. He seems to be doing well and is banging Eastern European chicks so it's all cool with me. I'm more of a quality over quantity sorta guy. I do value variety but I don't like using condoms so it kinda limits me to fewer sexual partners because I will stick with one and move to the next with tests in between. So I don't really value as much of these more technical guys getting talking about getting with club chicks all the time for a ONS. The guys who seem to have a more holistic, quality approach to them I think make better content but different guys will prefer different styles.

[RedLine]

14 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I never really watched RSD Max. I wasn't a fan of his intonation / public speaking and of what little content I saw of his it always felt sorta like "visualize success" generic self help psychology repackaged for pick up. I can't go in depth on his content nor really make my mind up on hi, cause I've seen maybe one or two videos of his. Someone else here probably knows much more about him, if he still even teaches pick up. 

Ranking PUAs is silly. I've noticed a lot of these American PUAs, especially those running game in "elite" stage orange cities think because they have mapped out all this shit with fancy concepts and lingo that there is some level of mastery being displayed when they see their little model on display in some set of theirs, confirmation bias. The truth is they are just overlaying a lot of their bullshit onto it and are getting results because they are exposing themselves to massive experience and are half way competent enough not to be a total creep, get in their own way, believe in themselves, not be such a wimp, being fun and chill, going after what they want, etc. They have to sorta buy into their own BS to have the confidence to get with more women and sell their program.

If he's ranking them based on how they teach and what teaching style he prefers sure, but it's not really possible to really rank them on how good they are with women. You can really only do this roughly by if they are or are not getting voluntarily-regularly laid. What type of women they get with and how frequently is more subjective. I can tell you the type of women I've seen James approach and get numbers from in his infields are my type so maybe he's doing okay? I haven't really watched a whole lot of his stuff, I don't really follow any PUA closely at all, so I'm not gonna simp for him here or anything. Just what I've loosely observed in a handful of videos I've seen of his. He seems to be doing well and is banging Eastern European chicks so it's all cool with me. I'm more of a quality over quantity sorta guy. I do value variety but I don't like using condoms so it kinda limits me to fewer sexual partners because I will stick with one and move to the next with tests in between. So I don't really value as much of these more technical guys getting talking about getting with club chicks all the time for a ONS. The guys who seem to have a more holistic, quality approach to them I think make better content but different guys will prefer different styles.

 

That is nonsense. It is not self validation. There are certain patterns that produce attraction that can be observed, expalined and systematized. The flaw of James Marshall, as he says in the video, is that he always use the same system and is not flexible depending of the situtaion, too robotic. 

 

If you want to know about Max, check The Natural, all his explanations are on point and he has like 20 infield analyzed on detail.

 

I also like Julien but he does not have many infields, I have only seen the Starbucks one haha. He focus a lot in getting into the zone, that´s good.

 

 

 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Federico del pueblo said:

that's so interesting, I'd love to see that but I guess the video can't be found anywhere anymore, right?

 

It most definitely has been taken down from YT. I know there are some Mega.nz accounts somewhere on the internet with old RSD videos though, you might have luck digging through them.

 

2 hours ago, Federico del pueblo said:

Anyway, do you still remember some details of that, like how Tyler managed to do that?

He did it by letting loose and having more fun.

The specifics aren’t really that relevant. The things he said were pointless and silly. That’s why they worked. It’s not like someone could just repeat what he did and expect to get the same result.

Side point, it doesn’t mean that Tyler has better game than Todd. Game is super fickle as I’m sure you know. But it does point to an important lesson in social dynamics: people go to where the energy is the best.

Todd is great at coming off as high status. And objective measures of high status really appeal to people on paper and their ego.

But when push comes to shove, everyone just wants to feel better than they were before. They want that chronic anxiety and pain they carry to go away. And if you can be that perceived source of reprieve for them, they will love you for it.

Which doesn’t mean you can’t also obtain objective measures of high status. Ideally you have both. But your energy is really your X factor.

[Federico del pueblo]

23 minutes ago, aurum said:

He did it by letting loose and having more fun.

The specifics aren’t really that relevant. The things he said were pointless and silly. That’s why they worked. It’s not like someone could just repeat what he did and expect to get the same result.

Side point, it doesn’t mean that Tyler has better game than Todd. Game is super fickle as I’m sure you know. But it does point to an important lesson in social dynamics: people go to where the energy is the best.

Todd is great at coming off as high status. And objective measures of high status really appeal to people on paper and their ego.

But when push comes to shove, everyone just wants to feel better than they were before. They want that chronic anxiety and pain they carry to go away. And if you can be that perceived source of reprieve for them, they will love you for it.

Which doesn’t mean you can’t also obtain objective measures of high status. Ideally you have both. But your energy is really your X factor.

This is all so damn interesting man, I love thinking about and observing these social dynamics, so let me just add my 2 cents to it.

I agree that Todd is good at coming off as high status. But it seems like as a consequence of that he also wants to be taken seriously, he needs to be seen as that high value guy.

And Tyler has mastered this being in the flow, just having great energy kind of thing.

And it's interesting because I could see Tyler being somewhere with people who all have higher status than him, but him being completely unaffected by that. And interestingly this gives him some situational status (as I would call it). 

If other people's status doesn't affect you as in doesn't put you in your head or make you feel "low status" and you remain confident, positive, loose etc it can actually affect the people who have higher status on paper, like they start questioning themselves, maybe get a bit insecure.

It's so interesting how this all works.

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, RedLine said:

That is nonsense. It is not self validation. There are certain patterns that produce attraction that can be observed, expalined and systematized. The flaw of James Marshall, as he says in the video, is that he always use the same system and is not flexible depending of the situtaion, too robotic. 

A lot of them are just smelling their own. It's why there are a hundred different guys essentially teaching the same thing in different ways and all claiming to get the best results. I'm not doubting many of them are capable enough to get with a woman when they go to the club but there are far too many factors, variables and contexts to really even begin to rank these guys. It's far from scientific. The guy in the video is just ranking what he thinks would work best for him in field, not what PUAs the best at getting results. He has no clue what kinda results each guy is actually getting. I've only seen a lot of these guys through their infields and they layer on all their BS over what they think is going on. The thing is you hypothetically could switch whatever guy in/out instead of them, using their same game program, and things could drastically change. The woman could literally be sliding her panties off for the substitute because he appears to be "her type" or she's already screened him out cause she hates his mannerisms and his verbals come off too cocky for her. I can't really speak too much on Jame's approach since I've not really studied his content thoroughly. I've seen maybe 10-15 videos of his for free. The thing about Jame's infields from what I've seen is that he runs a very down to earth, low verbal style game that is largely about screening for girls that are interested in him off the bat and then slowly building from there through a sort of authenticity paradigm and moving inward energy outward. He games a lot of chicks who don't speak English as a first language as well so he isn't able to layer on a story about how his fancy verbals did all this shit to her psychology. His style to me didn't seem to robotic but again, I haven't really seen a lot of his so I couldn't say for certain.   

Edited January 22, 2022 by Lyubov

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Federico del pueblo said:

I agree that Todd is good at coming off as high status. But it seems like as a consequence of that he also wants to be taken seriously, he needs to be seen as that high value guy.

 

Exactly. As long as people fall into Todd’s frame of “take me seriously”, that can create a perception of Todd being high value. But it’s also in a sense a weakness, because if you need people to take you seriously, you’re insecure. And when someone exposes that, now you just look like a tool.

 

1 hour ago, Federico del pueblo said:

And it's interesting because I could see Tyler being somewhere with people who all have higher status than him, but him being completely unaffected by that. And interestingly this gives him some situational status (as I would call it). 

If other people's status doesn't affect you as in doesn't put you in your head or make you feel "low status" and you remain confident, positive, loose etc it can actually affect the people who have higher status on paper, like they start questioning themselves, maybe get a bit insecure.

Yeah Tyler has infield where he shows exactly this happening.

The more relaxed and fun you are, the more “high status” people will perceive you. Even though they might not use those words. They just know that you’re free and not stifled.   

Another angle to look at it is that our primitive reptilian brains don’t understand objective, intellectual measures of status. That’s more a function of the neocortex.

But our primitive brains do understand confident body language. They do understand an open, commanding voice. They do understand eye contact and pupil dilation. They do understand smiling, laughing and relaxed facial muscles. And all that can be self-generated with zero dollars in your bank account and no objective status. Although as I said before, it usually doesn’t hurt if you also have that going for you.

[Federico del pueblo]

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yeah Tyler has infield where he shows exactly this happening.

Cool, is this in his exclusive content like the hot seat at home or also in the original YouTube videos that now only exist in some mega.nz folder?

I have to say that I find it highly beneficial to see someone do things like this because you can sort of tune into the energy of that person and get a feel for how he's carrying himself.

I still remember how some years ago I would just watch some of Tyler's free tour off the cuff videos (or however you spell it, lol) then go out the next day and I was able to mimic that way of just letting loose and being carefree and it totally made me more attractive to other people (not just girls).

 

Quote

The more relaxed and fun you are, the more “high status” people will perceive you. Even though they might not use those words. They just know that you’re free and not stifled.   

Another angle to look at it is that our primitive reptilian brains don’t understand objective, intellectual measures of status. That’s more a function of the neocortex.

But our primitive brains do understand confident body language. They do understand an open, commanding voice. They do understand eye contact and pupil dilation. They do understand smiling, laughing and relaxed facial muscles. And all that can be self-generated with zero dollars in your bank account and no objective status.

Yeah, and I think this is precisely the reason why game works, which is what makes it so fascinating for me.

 

44 minutes ago, aurum said:

Although as I said before, it usually doesn’t hurt if you also have that going for you.

Sure it doesn't hurt. Though I think the reason for this is our social conditioning, because people value things like success, money etc. So if you have "real" displays of status or for example really good looks etc it becomes easier for you to rationalize why people should respect you or find you attractive and thus you start acting more entitled and confident, which can help you to attain even more status (isn't that the "winner effect"?).

Ok, enough game theory for today, good night ?

[Migue Lonas]

Hey guys, thanks ya'll for the replies. I have been busy so I haven't been able to respond and take part in the convo.

Btw, after writing this post, I realized that the answers will probably be quite long so this goes without saying but: take your time to respond, please don't feel pressured to respond quickly or to respond at all. This is quite obvious but I wanted to still say so it is clear between us. I might also take a while to respond as it happened. I like to respond when I really have time so that I can give a proper respond.

I'll reply one by one to keep this organized.

First, @Medhansh - as you see, others have pointed out issues with him even tho his teaching has shit ton of value.

Second, to your first respond @Federico del pueblo

I pretty much agree with everything you say and that's my experience with studying Todd too. I have studied him quite deeply as well. To the point, as like I said in the beginner, maybe he is holding me back. I have loved his style very much. It works well with my personality of the more cool, silent, relaxed type of guy, rather than fun clown like Owen. Not saying that Owen is bad like @aurum said, but just trying to make a point.

Altho, to that point Aurum, I think I agree with Leo on the fact that Owen doesn't necessarily have the top game. He is very good at teaching game but not necessary a top player himself. The way I see it and I have actually experimented with his style before I studied Todd's, is that Owen's style is a big hit or miss. If everything goes well, the environment is right and you properly get into state, you will be a God. If everything goes wrong, you can look like a clown or come off as too friendly because there isn't enough man to woman frame and / or qualifying the girl etc.

Todd's style is more consistent, as far as results are concerned. This is my experience. I used to study mostly Owen before I studied Todd, because of my spiritual background, so I resonated with Owen's inner game style more. I didn't ever study Julien deeply but I heard he was a God, I think this is what Leo also says. I think, perhaps, the best approach is perhaps to be able to do both Owen's and Todd's game and depending on the situation, environment, your mood etc, switch between the styles.

But man, after hearing the stuff people talk about Julien, I wish I had studied him more before all the stuff were taken down. It really sparks my curiosity but I would imagine his style was something like Owen's but much more polarizing, cocky, narcissist, manipulative, arrogant etc. Even tho this style is still based on the hit or miss premise, but perhaps that's the best game overall, of course depending on who the person using the style is. I could see why that can work extremely well for Julien, taking into consideration that he is tall and one of the better looking guys out of all the teachers. And he used to be extremely shy with deep insecurity issues, so this polarizing style seems to have been fitting for him to compromise and ''go to the other extreme'', as lots of new guys into game tend to do.

You also said, Federico:

''I just have my own techniques for "inner work" that I gathered over the years which I do on top of learning (technical) game (let me know if you want me to share them).''

Please do.

And responding to your summary:

I have to add that I'm fairly young (27) and have done deep spiritual and inner work for the past 10 years so I have most or a lot of my inner shit resolved. And like I said, I used to follow Owen's style much more when I had less of my inner shit resolved. Afterwards I've been getting shit ton of value from Todd's teaching. But I wonder what is holding me back from reaching TRUE, DEEP, Abundance. The kind of abundance that from my gut feelings I know, without even thinking, that I can attract a really hot girl into my life, anytime. Now, a hot girl and a quality girl can be a very different thing and that is a whole another conversation.

But I did some deep dive into this conversation:

(Okay, after writing the following, I realized this shit goes deep so take your time. And I would appreciate if everyone joining this conversation reads the following as well. Perhaps we'll get a really deep, and growing conversation).
 

And also this conversation that came from the opener of the above post where Leo was talking with @Emerald and @Etherial Cat about attraction: 
 

Now there's prolly some misunderstanding between the two parties. For example, I think Leo was talking about raw, brutal sexual attraction whereas the girls were talking about a good long-term partner.

But if that's not the case and the they are talking about the same thing and the parties are just straight up denying the each other's opinion, then: since, the girls are rather conscious and if Leo is right, which on further, deep contemplation with my own experience, I do think he is right, then in order to attract a very conscious partner,  you will still need to have that raw, brutal strenght, groundedness and the truly ''I don't give a fuck''-ness.

That's what I'm trying to build and it seems like even @Leo Gura (would like to have him join this conversation as well) is still building it at 36-37 years of age? So perhaps I'm over-hurrying. Or perhaps it truly just is an issue of logistics. I'm trying to see what is it that I'm missing and it can be really hard to see your own blindspots.

The reason I'm taking this so seriously is because I think (pretty sure, unless it is just a karma that once burned, I no longer care) that in the future, I will want a really attractive and also conscious partner (whatever this means since there are ton of degrees or levels to this). I don't think I'll be satisfied with just conscious partner who is not really really attractive. Also, I'm not sure if I will be satisfied with just one either. Perhaps, I will need a harem of bunch of really attractive, yet very conscious people. Because I find so many different types of girls attractive and perhaps I won't be satisfied with just one: theres the typical hot babe with hourglass body, then there's the classy long leg type of sexy and beauty, then there's cute shorter girls, and there's so many different type of faces, hairstyle, make up style etc, and finally there's the artistic and spiritual type of girls which I guess is more psychological attractiveness rather than body & face (and perhaps these two components can't be combined or can they? And even if they could, they can't change their body type at will). I also find intellectual and smart girls sexy in their own way. When I put it out like this, this shit can seem crazy even for really openminded and conscious people but is it tho? Or is it precisely because they are more ''conscious'' that they would condemn this shit because they have by-passed the work?

But of course, perhaps this is all just a lack of my spiritual and deep inner work, that I feel this way. Or perhaps this is just my karma that I need to burn through. I do have done a shit ton of inner work over the past 10 years but perhaps it isn't enough. Again, perhaps this is just my karma. Or perhaps this is neither and this is just how I want to build my (passionate) life to be and that's fine. Altho it can be perhaps quite / a bit unrealistic in our current time and age to find a bunch of really attractive girls, yet very conscious to want to be part of my harem. Perhaps it is not unrealistic at all. But either way I guess by improving myself as a man of strength & groundedness (increasing my sexual attraction and value) is the only way to find out.

But yeah, ''back'' to finishing my respond to your summary Federico, hopefully everything I said makes sense, there were many points made. But basically I want to improve and max out my sexual attraction and value. And as in the opener, how much does it require for me to be an asshole, scumbag, narcissist etc. And how much am I willing to cross the line? Hopefully this conversation gives ya'll value as well so that it is not only me who gets value.

--------------------------------------------

I'll respond to the rest in a new comment.

[Leo Gura]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:52 AM, Migue Lonas said:

I can’t get to the true abundance of not truly giving a fuck if I lose a really hot girl. It stings

If it didn't sting you would be a sociopath.

The idea of dropping girls and not caring about them is not healthy.

[Federico del pueblo]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If it didn't sting you would be a sociopath.

The idea of dropping girls and not caring about them is not healthy.

I'd argue that it depends on how it stings.

If it stings in a "damn, I lost that girl" way I think it's fine.

If it stings in a "I lost her... probably I'm just not good enough, I'm just not the kind of guy who can have girls like her" kind of way, then more work is necessary.

[Migue Lonas]

@Raze I was gonna reply to everyone but perhaps that's an inefficient way to go about this since others have said the same things as you and much more so perhaps it's best I just respond to the deeper answers. Feel free to further answer tho.

@aurum - To your first reply:

Great points. I pretty much have the same thoughts except the part when you said that there is a video where Owen obliterated Todd (agree but I don't think it's the full story). I touched on this in my first reply to Federico but to sum it up, perhaps it was just once in a while thing since I think Owen's style is more of a hit or miss, similar to Julien's but just Julien's style is even more of a hit or miss than Owen's. Whereas Todd is more consistent, no?

On the social circle part, the problem with that game style is like Leo said in his How To Get Laid Series, it is energy consuming to run a social circle. Also, it is not the best way to go about gaming, since if you move to or visit another city, you'll have nothing. Cold approach is the best way to go because it builds you the most as a man of strength and groundedness. You are not dependent on anything like social circle or fame. Please correct me if this thinking is flawed.

About Derek. That's exactly the problem, as I mentioned in the opened. Generally, the more narcissist, scumbagry, asshole you are, the easier it is to get with hot girls. The problem is, where is the line I am willing to cross, as a person who values spirituality and consciousness? Of course, as a conscious person, I am willing to kill people if the situation requires but this is not really necessary the situation to act so ''low''.

@Lyubov - To your first reply:
 

On 1/21/2022 at 0:07 AM, Lyubov said:

He places a lot of emphasis on cognitively decoding all sorts of dynamics going on behind his words and all sorts of theories built up around what he means when he says x or y or when this or that happens. If there is even the slightest language barrier or cultural communication difference between you and the woman, half his content went into all this detail for nothing, women whose first language isn't English won't be able to appreciate the verbals he teaches.

Yup.

We have the same story. I was more into Owen at first due to my spiritual background but later I found Todd more helpful in a practical way. Also the ''today I'm actually mixed on him'' is relateable. Please read my first reply, I pretty much touch on your points and go deeper on some points, especially the point that perhaps an ideal game is being able to switch between Owen style and Todd style, depending on circumstances or perhaps combine their styles into one style, if that is even possible and if it is possible then perhaps, depending on the situation, switch between the three styles. Altho there is Julien's style as well and I heard that it was God level. I just never got the chance to deeply study him.

Also I share much more context of my current situation in the first reply.

Yeah, perhaps it is the unholistic part of Todd that I feel off. I am aware of James Marshall but haven't studied him deeply. The small amount I have, I got kinda a more relaxed version of Owen vibe. Meaning, perhaps too much inner game?

You also say that Todd is very stage orange. But my question to that is, perhaps stage orange game is the most efficient? that's really the whole dilemma here. On one hand I want to be really efficient, on the other hand I wonder where is the line of values am I willing to cross.

@RedLine - To your first reply. That video is interesting. I'm not familiar with all of the teachers but perhaps Owen is too high.

I've studied Max a bit and I heard he was really good but got really turned off by his sales team and the way he does sales. So I dropped him. Perhaps as you said, his style mixed with Todd's or the ability to fluctuate between the two depending on the situation might be the best. Or perhaps mix between Julien and Todd?

On a side note: are you into One Piece due to the name? 
Let's not get into that here tho haha.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Migue Lonas

[Migue Lonas]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:00 AM, aurum said:

Exactly. As long as people fall into Todd’s frame of “take me seriously”, that can create a perception of Todd being high value. But it’s also in a sense a weakness, because if you need people to take you seriously, you’re insecure. And when someone exposes that, now you just look like a tool.

 

On 1/22/2022 at 3:00 AM, aurum said:

Yeah Tyler has infield where he shows exactly this happening.

The more relaxed and fun you are, the more “high status” people will perceive you. Even though they might not use those words. They just know that you’re free and not stifled.   

Another angle to look at it is that our primitive reptilian brains don’t understand objective, intellectual measures of status. That’s more a function of the neocortex.

But our primitive brains do understand confident body language. They do understand an open, commanding voice. They do understand eye contact and pupil dilation. They do understand smiling, laughing and relaxed facial muscles. And all that can be self-generated with zero dollars in your bank account and no objective status. Although as I said before, it usually doesn’t hurt if you also have that going for you.

Good points being made. At the same time, perhaps, having people take you seriously in some situations is completely natural and fine. And perhaps because you are really deep down insecure, that's why you deny it, and hide it exactly with this mentality of ''I'm just having fun and I don't care if no one takes me seriously''. What I'm saying is that: if this is done incorrectly, it could be due to self-deception and hiding from reality.

But yeah it is a weird but understandable paradox. On one hand you really do care about hot girls taking you seriously until you have so much of them that it doesn't matter anymore. But how to get there? By first learning to get the girls take you seriously. Or perhaps... lie to yourself that you don't care, so it would be the fake it till you make it approach. The problem with the latter approach is how sustainable it is? How much can you fake it before reality shits on you? And even if you manage to make it by faking it, will there be a lingering fear deep down that you made it only because you faked it? Granted, some people might have this delusional level of confidence and they don't even realize that they are faking it and just by pure luck, things work out, which feeds their delusions even more - narcissists, sociopaths, manipulative people etc or perhaps even just socially clueless people (not sophisticated = naturally doesn't give a fuck about social norms and the survival hierarchy).

But we are not interested in delusions here, right?

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If it didn't sting you would be a sociopath.

The idea of dropping girls and not caring about them is not healthy.

Yeah but what if it stings even when you haven't built a deeper connection with them, due to the loss of beauty and hotness? We are talking about the initial phase of dating or even earlier than that. My whole point with this thread is: where could I improve myself so that I can become more sexually attractive in order to not be in such a scarcity mindset when it comes to top hot girls. OR is the problem really just Location, since naturally you are in scarcity when there isn't many options for you to pick up.

I have to be careful with the location explanation because it could be just a rationalization to keep me from improving myself.

On the other hand, if I am to improve myself from here, then how? I have studied & practiced game and spirituality pretty much for the past 10 years directly or indirectly. What are some teachers I could learn from? Could it be perhaps, you and the people on this forum that I need to learn from? What about approaching more hot girls? Which leads to the problem of the location.

Or is it just because I've developed myself as a person, spirituality and consciousness wise, that my raw sexual power isn't as high anymore? I go much deeper on this in my first reply. You have said yourself that generally, the more scumbag, asshole, manipulative, narcissist or ''barbarian'' you are, the easier it is with hot girls. If this is the case, how ''low'' am I willing to step?

How have you dealt with this or how are you dealing with this? How would you deal with this?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Migue Lonas

[Federico del pueblo]

@Migue Lonas

I think I'm gonna split this up in several posts here, because there are various things I want to reply to and there's a lot to say. So here we go.

4 hours ago, Migue Lonas said:

You also said, Federico:

''I just have my own techniques for "inner work" that I gathered over the years which I do on top of learning (technical) game (let me know if you want me to share them).''

I'm an engineer, so I like to look at things in a technical/systematic way which you will probably notice in my explanation

So my inner work is basically divided in 2 parts:

1.) trigger reduction/trauma release = uninstalling negative programs

2.) creating positive beliefs and emotions  = installing positive programs

 

1.)

For 1.) I use the technique known as "emotional freedom techniques (EFT)", often just referred to as tapping, and it's tremendously effective for me to release any kind of limiting emotion or belief I could ever have.

I have to mention though that in the beginning the technique didn't work for me because I was getting something wrong even though I worked with a practicioner and this is noteworthy because sometimes I hear other people, who tried the technique, say "EFT  didn't work for me" and I'm almost certain that in most cases I'd be able to point out to them what they're doing wrong/not getting, so they actually could make it work.

What's so advantageous about this technique for me is that it allows me to work with "the negative" and I can tackle extremely specific issues and basically just unwire them from my brain so to speak.

It's also good because you don't always have to find something positive to replace the negative with how it's often done with other approaches, e.g. when people basically start to affirm the opposite of whatever their negative belief is. Thus it's kinda like your fear/insecuritiy or even trauma just becomes weaker and weaker and weaker the more you use the technique and the problem just vanishes so you don't respond to a trigger anymore.

Once I've managed to remove or at least considerably weaken a certain problem (belief/Emotion) I can then move on to part 2.) and create something positive if I wish to do so. This is often not necessary though, because once you don't get triggered by a stimuli anymore you're already good, you just feel neutral and thus fine.

 

But here's part 2.)

To install more positive programs I use a combination of meditation and visualization, which is pretty much the thing that Dr. Joe Dispenza teaches (book: You are the placebo).

Here's how it works:

First I have a guided part that is considered to be an "induction" with the purpose of slowing down your brain waves so you enter a state of alpha or even theta brain waves.

This grants you better acces to your subconscious mind, so you can reprogram it much more easily.

After this comes a silent part (just ongoing meditation music), for you to "go in the void", and just become pure nothingness or pure consciousness. In this part you deepen the meditative state too.

After that you have a "creation part" in which you basically create the experience of you being changed/transformed in the way you desire. So here you're basically visualizing, or mentally rehearsing your new self, which also includes speaking affirmations that represent your new self.

Additionally I've encountered an absolute hack to make this still much more powerful and awesome:

In my playlist with the meditation I'll add 1-3 amazing tracks with very inspiring music, pretty much like the music you'd have in a movie at the end when the hero killed the villain and saved the planet and everybody is happy and grateful. Tracks like "now we are free" from The Gladiator or "time" from Hans Zimmer. The artists "fearless motivation instrumentals" make the most amazing music for this purpose and you can find them anywhere (YouTube, Spotify etc.).

During this music I'll keep visualizing and affirming and I have often hit states of absolute bliss or ecstasy, like ridiculously powerful emotions. I'm not exaggerating here...these were the best experiences of my life and they happened purely in my mind.

So that was part 2.)

And just to go full circle here. As a amazing as 2.) is, when you have very strong triggers from trauma or whatever it is still more effective for me to first weaken the triggers with 1.) and then move on to 2.), because otherwise you might not rewrite or uninstall these negative programs, you rather install new ones that start to compete with the old ones and then it's still kind of like an inner battle.

Ok, after this long ass post I feel like it's enough for me for today and I'll address some other things tomorrow, regarding the hot girls and game style and stuff.

Cheers!