Few Heads Are Better Than One (i Seek Your Guidance)

[Clayman]

Hello there folks.

I am here to seek your guidance, maybe your opinions, experiences and knowledge can shed some light on this. 

From my observance I think that, someone very near to me is stuck in a quite bad version of the "blue stage" mindset.
And to give you a glimpse into his mind: He declares himself as a Nationalist and openly supports Hitler, denies the Holocaust, claims its all conspiracy. Academic science is brainwashing everyone. There is a plan for ethnic genocide in Europe, trough emigration....ect,ect.... All these beliefs, he considers to be facts. Its like he has built a fortress in his mind, expands it everyday, and shoots anyone that gets near it. In case he gets in an argument with someone he plays "the devils advocate" and is not willing to evaluate his so called "facts". He puts a lot of value on nation, ethnicity, race, culture. And has preservationist types of opinions on these matters. Self sacrificial also ... A great victim of conformation bias and causation fallacy loop.

I am not shocked by all of this. I have done a lot of personal development work in the last 2/3 years, so I understand this is a normal phase of the human psyche development. I have been there, just luckily in a more healthy and non-threatening version. And after all he is just a 19yr old confused teen. Don Beck explains that stages are overcame by "emergence", and for someone to evolve into the new stage (in this case orange), he has to be open-minded about new possibilities, have a healthy version of the current state... ect ect... a list of dozen conditions (By observing myself and my development i found them to be quite legit). All the things that he does not currently posses. I do not see how he can emerge. Work himself out, he seems stuck in his fortress.

So far I have shown him Leos "Get yo ass inspired" video, he watched it. But all he could see was information, true or false. Not the vision. I have also suggested and shown him the power of reading books. He bought into it a little bit. I gave him  "Think: Why You Should Question Everything: Guy P. Harrison" its an easy to read book, good to teach proper skepticism, a way to get into evaluating your thoughts. He didn't touch it, instead went researching for books that would just prove his Hitler, race, ethnic-ism ideas. I thought .... this might backfire badly.

So... here I am. 
Thank you for your time.
I deeply appreciate it.

[SFRL]

4 hours ago, Clayman said:

Hello there folks.

I am here to seek your guidance, maybe your opinions, experiences and knowledge can shed some light on this. 

From my observance I think that, someone very near to me is stuck in a quite bad version of the "blue stage" mindset.
And to give you a glimpse into his mind: He declares himself as a Nationalist and openly supports Hitler, denies the Holocaust, claims its all conspiracy. Academic science is brainwashing everyone. There is a plan for ethnic genocide in Europe, trough emigration....ect,ect.... All these beliefs, he considers to be facts. Its like he has built a fortress in his mind, expands it everyday, and shoots anyone that gets near it. In case he gets in an argument with someone he plays "the devils advocate" and is not willing to evaluate his so called "facts". He puts a lot of value on nation, ethnicity, race, culture. And has preservationist types of opinions on these matters. Self sacrificial also ... A great victim of conformation bias and causation fallacy loop.

I am not shocked by all of this. I have done a lot of personal development work in the last 2/3 years, so I understand this is a normal phase of the human psyche development. I have been there, just luckily in a more healthy and non-threatening version. And after all he is just a 19yr old confused teen. Don Beck explains that stages are overcame by "emergence", and for someone to evolve into the new stage (in this case orange), he has to be open-minded about new possibilities, have a healthy version of the current state... ect ect... a list of dozen conditions (By observing myself and my development i found them to be quite legit). All the things that he does not currently posses. I do not see how he can emerge. Work himself out, he seems stuck in his fortress.

So far I have shown him Leos "Get yo ass inspired" video, he watched it. But all he could see was information, true or false. Not the vision. I have also suggested and shown him the power of reading books. He bought into it a little bit. I gave him  "Think: Why You Should Question Everything: Guy P. Harrison" its an easy to read book, good to teach proper skepticism, a way to get into evaluating your thoughts. He didn't touch it, instead went researching for books that would just prove his Hitler, race, ethnic-ism ideas. I thought .... this might backfire badly.

So... here I am. 
Thank you for your time.
I deeply appreciate it.

You are trying to go the intellectual route but he is trying to be this hard guy so that's not going to resonate with him. 

Far right is anti-intellectual anyway. Hitler was anti-intellectuals. 

Take him to a boxing/kick-boxing/MMA gym. It's a very mixed group there. He can't preach his believes there. And after mixing it up with the other guys there he won't be able to hold on to those believes anymore. "Awarenesses alone is curative". 

*I see now that you are from Macedonia. I don't know what the (gym) culture is really like over there. But you can give it a try. 

If anything it may give him something else to focus on. 

*My advice is not for him to get beat up, but he will grow respect when going trough training with people from other ethnicities. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by STC

[Christian]

I think there is one fundamental principle at plat here and that is: You cannot change other people. If people want to change their internal belief systems, it is up to them and he probably will not do that based on the information you share with him. Especially if his self concept (ego) feels threatened and you construct this narriative of him being "the wrong one" and the one who needs to evolve or grow out of this blue stage that you describe. 

I would say that the best thing you can do is to show him unconditional love and accept him for who he is. Along side, inspire him with your actions so he generates his motivation to change. This is great because it means you can focus more on your self improvement in this context and if you do thar that, maybe he will get inspired to change, but avoid being attached to that outcome.  

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Clayman said:

Hello there folks.

I am here to seek your guidance, maybe your opinions, experiences and knowledge can shed some light on this. 

From my observance I think that, someone very near to me is stuck in a quite bad version of the "blue stage" mindset.
And to give you a glimpse into his mind: He declares himself as a Nationalist and openly supports Hitler, denies the Holocaust, claims its all conspiracy. Academic science is brainwashing everyone. There is a plan for ethnic genocide in Europe, trough emigration....ect,ect.... All these beliefs, he considers to be facts. Its like he has built a fortress in his mind, expands it everyday, and shoots anyone that gets near it. In case he gets in an argument with someone he plays "the devils advocate" and is not willing to evaluate his so called "facts". He puts a lot of value on nation, ethnicity, race, culture. And has preservationist types of opinions on these matters. Self sacrificial also ... A great victim of conformation bias and causation fallacy loop.

I am not shocked by all of this. I have done a lot of personal development work in the last 2/3 years, so I understand this is a normal phase of the human psyche development. I have been there, just luckily in a more healthy and non-threatening version. And after all he is just a 19yr old confused teen. Don Beck explains that stages are overcame by "emergence", and for someone to evolve into the new stage (in this case orange), he has to be open-minded about new possibilities, have a healthy version of the current state... ect ect... a list of dozen conditions (By observing myself and my development i found them to be quite legit). All the things that he does not currently posses. I do not see how he can emerge. Work himself out, he seems stuck in his fortress.

So far I have shown him Leos "Get yo ass inspired" video, he watched it. But all he could see was information, true or false. Not the vision. I have also suggested and shown him the power of reading books. He bought into it a little bit. I gave him  "Think: Why You Should Question Everything: Guy P. Harrison" its an easy to read book, good to teach proper skepticism, a way to get into evaluating your thoughts. He didn't touch it, instead went researching for books that would just prove his Hitler, race, ethnic-ism ideas. I thought .... this might backfire badly.

So... here I am. 
Thank you for your time.
I deeply appreciate it.

Unfortunately, people are going to be how they're going to be. So, in one sense you just have to let go. A family member of mine, who used to not be racist until two months ago, since the U.S. presidential election, is reading a lot of propaganda on the right like Infowars and Breitbart News and other far right sites. So, in the past two months (and never before) she's all about "Islam is a front for terrorism", Muslims are bad distorted people, Barrack Obama is a radical Muslim from Kenya named Barry Sorento, we need for our police officers to be able to interrogate people who are Muslim on the basis of them being Muslim, black people have privilege over white people, we need to build a wall, illegal immigrants are criminals, etc. It's been a real shock for me, and when I point out fallacies in her thinking, she criticizes me for being politically uninformed and closed minded. It's really scary because it makes me wonder how many others have been hemmed into this type of thinking, who weren't that way before. Brainwashing is scary. 

But if you want to try to push your dad in a better direction, you have to meet him where he is and accept him how he is. Don't disapprove of him in a blunt way, as this will make him cling tighter to his beliefs. So, you have to find sources that are slight improvements on his way of thinking. He's not going to be able to jump paradigms that quickly, barring some huge awakening. Leo's videos and others in the rational/scientific and the post rational/spiritual paradigms aren't going to resonate with him. They're a complete mismatch to him right now. But you know the general direction that the Graves model moves in, so you'll want to maybe find more positive Absolutist-minded people for him to listen to. This may soften him up a bit more, or it may not. If this softens him a bit, you can start finding people who are mostly Absolutist but maybe have a dash of scientific/rationalism to their ideology. But Absolutists are very difficult to get them to grow, because they tend to like the status quo and their beliefs in right and wrong. Absolutist ideas and beliefs hide a lot of pain, so they need to keep believing them so they can keep targeting the hatred outward and away from themselves.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Emerald Wilkins

[Clayman]

@STC Yeh, I realized this could not be done by talking, intellectually, logically, using awareness or anything alike. His structure is just too undeveloped. 
He started "artistic" type of school half a year ago, its probably the most ethnically mixed  school in this country. That's how this urge of mine came at the first place. I didn't want him walking around and talking crap, getting beat up, or even worse, stabbed. He seems do to fine for now.... My other thought was - If he is exposed to ethnically diverse environment, and in this case quite artistic and not so "problematic" , he will have no option but to communicate, and slowly let his beliefs go unconsciously. "Martial arts places might be a good Idea too" though here almost all of the clubs are not so ethnically mixed. There are some 5/10% minorities at most. I used to train Jeet Kune Do and MMA, we were taught to see everyone as our equals and respect them. The thing might work on the long run. 

@Christian Yes my friend, I am nor trying to change his beliefs, nor I openly challenge them. I guess that's basically because I am not seeing them as wrong, they are just as they are and that is ok. I am very careful how I present these "things". As you said the last thing I want is to give him the impression that I am attacking him. Barely just trying to push him forward. Some people stay this way for decades, some even die with this mindset. I don't think it is a good idea to just let it be as it is and see what happens. That's where this urge comes from. And yes I am quite an influence for him(in some areas), he is seeking me constantly for advice and reviews. Had some good influence on nutrition, fitness, music, pick up an instrument so far.

@Emerald Wilkins  I first thought that he has a great "orange" spark, he seems to think that he is highly rational, scientific, a great individual. Yet, its funny how It all was done on a very absolutistic level. I failed to see it at first, that is why I tried to get him into personal development. Looks like it is a good sign that our views cross on all the points. Get him involved with other healthy blue people, hm, never thought of that, seems quite obvious. That's how Don Beck method. On one hand it can be fruitful, on the other, absolutists tend to crusade each-other out ...which includes building fortresses, it can reinforce. Still ...it tastes promising.
 

Thank you for your time wonderful people. \m/

Edited January 10, 2017 by Clayman