Carl-Richard

Vaush debates an actual Yellow person?!

108 posts in this topic

So, what I have learned myself from watching all these discussion is that being really mindful of my goal within a conversation is essential. I have noticed that a lot of stage green people seem to be seeking consensus. They have difficulty accepting conflict, disagreement, which I sometimes have issues with too so it is important to watch out for.

To approach is a conversation from the perspective of just clarifying why one beliefs what one does, without having the need to convince the other, or change his mind, is really useful. Often we only ask why someone beliefs what they do so we can debunk them better, or so we can politely tell them why they are wrong. Instead, we can focus on simply reacting to it by stating our opinion on it.

So, in that sense the conversation is very focused on oneself. I get a sense that for green this can be infuriating especially with topics they feel strongly about. For green, it's "This is JUST your opinion", for yellow it's "Aha, this is my opinion, interesting."

Yellow is focused on authentic self-understanding. Not to belief something because one ought to belief it, but really figuring out what one actually does belief and why.

Green will say "I should not belief this", and when it does belief something it will post-hoc rationalize why it believes what it does. Yellow is more focused on what is actually believed and the authentic reasons why ones believes it.

When Yellow says "I don't like this, because that's just how I feel about it", Green will say "But that's invalid, you can't just not like this because you feel like it, you are being evil!", which implies that green will lie to itself to uphold a certain self-image. "I am not this, I am not that!", independent of whether or not they are this and that.

 

That is the essence of bias and self-deception, and the reason why green cannot fix certain issues. It requires to be authentic to oneself, about oneself, to actually be even able to identify that which one is repressing for the sake of self-image.

So yellow is authentic not because they just want to be authentic, they are authentic because they can see this dynamic clearly within themselves.

 

In the past year or two I have actually been experiencing something similar. Where I will act unconsciously, being kind of conscious of it, instead of repressing myself, so I can see what I am truly like. Previously I was all about "But a conscious person doesn't do that, a stage yellow person doesn't do that!", and now I am more like "Well, I don't care what a stage yellow person would or wouldn't do, I am what I am, everything else is a lie.". So I can sometimes see how I am causing harm, and I will still do it because otherwise I would have to lie to myself, very similar to what Mr Girl is often referring to when he says he won't call a trans person a certain pronoun.

The recognition of ones own bias. To not be controlled and blinded by it, but to see it clearly for what it is. And to see it, sometimes we must live it out, so we can truly see what we are like.

An example in myself is that I know I might kill someone if they tortured an animal. Previously I would say to myself "Well but I should be the more conscious person and not kill them because that's unconscious and unloving", now I am more like "Ye I might kill that person because I know myself well enough that I would, and I will not pretend that I wouldn't, because THAT would actually be more unconscious than the alternative". To be conscious means to recognize that if I saw someone torture an animal, I would want to rip them apart and to torture them too. That's what I am, and if I want to change that, it won't be enough to just say "I am too unconscious to do that!". I could do that, I could stop myself for this reason, but that is not truly solving the deeper issue here.

Mr Girls point is that peopel are stopping themselves from being mean to trans people for fear, not because that's who they are. And we all need to watch out for what we truly are, to come to terms with it. Because only then can we begin to change.

 

 

Stage Yellow is shedding your Self Image, and allow your authentic self to shine through. To be yourself, with all your ugliness, for everyone to see. Because that's what you are, and that's what everyone is. You are the only one who is willing to show it, which of course will get you in trouble in a society in which everyone wears the mask and forgot what their faces even look like. Everyone pretends they are not selfish, yet everyone is selfish. You are selfish, I am selfish.

The danger here is of course that yellow might be too easy to accept it's own selfishness, and to not change it.

 

Another example is, I might argue that I care about animals because they are suffering more and whatever. And sure, that is true, they suffer more and there are much more of them who suffer. But that's not the actual reason why I care about this issue more than human issues. I care about it because that's how I feel about animals. I look at them and I feel pure innocence, and whether or not they are innocent is irrelevant. That's how I feel, and that's all the reason I need. Everything else is a lie.

This is a new type of freedom. Because usually, you restrict yourself from being authentic because you want to uphold a self image, to yourself and others. You don't want others to know how selfish you are, you don't even want to know yourself how selfish you are! But you are you little seflish bastard. And that's just the truth. You can pretend to yourself and others that you aren't, but that will not change the truth.

 

This is also why yellow is not interested in convincing others. Because that is just another lie. I want people to actually care about animals. Not because I convinced them that they should, but because they can see the same innocence in them that I can. And that I cannot do with arguments, I cannot do it by debunking them. The only thing I can do is show them my authentic self, and maybe, but most likely not, they will be touched by my authentic self in an authentic way that authentically changes them.

Edited by Scholar

Glory to Israel

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22 hours ago, Scholar said:

Mr Girls point is that peopel are stopping themselves from being mean to trans people for fear, not because that's who they are. And we all need to watch out for what we truly are, to come to terms with it. Because only then can we begin to change.

Stage Yellow is shedding your Self Image, and allow your authentic self to shine through. To be yourself, with all your ugliness, for everyone to see. Because that's what you are, and that's what everyone is. You are the only one who is willing to show it, which of course will get you in trouble in a society in which everyone wears the mask and forgot what their faces even look like. Everyone pretends they are not selfish, yet everyone is selfish. You are selfish, I am selfish.

The danger here is of course that yellow might be too easy to accept it's own selfishness, and to not change it.

The danger is lessened when, like you said, one is authentic about wanting change. We're not stagnant. We want to expand. It's only human. Self-acceptance and self-honesty mostly works to eliminate noise. Most of Tier 1 discourse is just noise: virtue signalling, optics, misinformation, bad faith, smear tactics, power games. Acceptance, honesty, understanding and empathy is the path towards mutual growth. Green is half-way there, but gets stuck on "why should we empathize with the least empathetic of us?", not understanding how this is the most crucial hurdle. It's like a parent who refuses to empathize with their child for simply being a child. It shows a lack of understanding and denies the child's right to growth, and in a way, it makes them into a child as well.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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   This a good analysis by Destiny about the mrgirl and vaush debate. Some of his points remind me of this place:

 

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i haven't watched any video in this topic but replies are amazing on this! 

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I will tie this in with societal dynamics, and why yellow recognizes the true importance of freedom of expression.

We all carry selfishness and evil in us, we all have unjustifiable biases, we all have hatred, fear and bigotry within us. The issue when you limit the free expression of individuals is that you give individuals only few options to handle these aspects within themselves.

A progressive person who is hateful, and is told that hatred is unjustifable, has basically three options to deal with it:

The progressive can repress their hatred, internalize it and ignore that it exists.

The progressive can pretend that they are not hateful, that what they are doing is just a natural extention of ethics: "I don't hate nazi's, I just punch them because that's what we need to do!"

The progressive can justify his hatred. "Yes I hate nazi's, and here is why you should hate them too, and if you don't hate them like I do, you are evil!"

 

The fundamental issue here is that the progressive wants to tell themselves they are fundamentally different from the people they criticize. They could not possibly be racist. So when they do feel hatred towards White People, they will tell themselves that actually, that hatred is no hatred at all, or that that hatred is actually good. Because the progressive cannot allow himself to be flawed, he cannot admit to himself that he is just a racist. So of course he has to explain to you why it's okay, why it's good to be racist towards white people. Why it's a virtue, not a flaw, because there is no way he is flawed. If he was flawed, he would be a bigot. And because he knows how much he hates bigots, he could not possibly admit to himself that he himself is one too.

Because we are so sensitive to evil, every evil in every person must be justified, and turned into good. That actually, hatred towards men is good. That actually hatred towards immigrants is good. That it's not even hatred, that it's just virtue. Because if it wasn't good, then I should be the one who should be cancelled, because I think bigots should be canceld. I should be ostracized, because I think people like that should be ostracized.

 

This is a regression to stage blue. We are not allowed, we should be ashamed. And our evil, our selfishness, could not possibly be anything put the Will of the Ideology, the Will of God.

 

A lot of people who once were stage blue and progress up the spiral, they know how much they can be flawed. They know how evil they can be. But today, if you grow up without stage blue, you never went through that. You don't even know you can be racist. You don't know that when you hate white people, that's racism, and that you are a racist like any other racist. And because you cannot admit this to even yourself, you cannot ever resolve it.

 

The fundamental issue is not that people are racist towards White People. That's not really an issue. The issue is that people are lying to themselves, and they lie so much that to get out of the lie, to put off the mask, means they have to face the very hatred they have towards the world. They have to look in the mirror and see the racist, the trump supported, the bigot, the cancelworthy, punchable nazi. That's what they are, they just express their hatred in different ways.

This means if we do not allow society to self-express, to be authentic, then we cannot ever address any authentic hatred. And because society will be under such survival pressure, because everyone who is flawed is basically an outcast, individuals will have to repress and recontextualized their hatred. Everyone still feels the hatred, they have it growing inside of them. And because society as such demonizes that hatred, all it takes for someone to convince that person to come to the dark side is to tell them. "Here, join us. Here you are allowed to hate, here you can hate as much as you want. Here, hatred is Good. Join us to fight the Nazi's, join us to fight the Marxists, join us and let your hatred flow through you. You can hate White People, you can hate Black people. Whatever you will hate, here I have a group of people who will let you express yourself, finally, for the first time, you can be yourself."

 

This is the consequence of repression. You cannot hide from the little Hitler inside you, he will hate, unless you face him and admit to yourself that you are him. If nobody is allowed to be flawed, there is no other choice but to turn the flaws into virtues. If we punish the selfish, because we all are selfish, we will start to call the selfish the Good. And that's when true evil can take place.

 

We have to remember that we are all humans. And humans are terribly flawed and selfish. You and me, we are flawed and selfish. And we need to accept that, because the alternative means that we will be stuck with our flaws and selfishness. The difference between me and Hitler is marginal, and circumstantial.

Edited by Scholar

Glory to Israel

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16 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This a good analysis by Destiny about the mrgirl and vaush debate. Some of his points remind me of this place

It begins at 33:39


Life Purpose journey

Presence. Goodness. Grace. Love.

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13 hours ago, Scholar said:

We have to remember that we are all humans. And humans are terribly flawed and selfish. You and me, we are flawed and selfish. And we need to accept that, because the alternative means that we will be stuck with our flaws and selfishness. The difference between me and Hitler is marginal, and circumstantial.

Yes, accept that. And then transcend it.

Accepting our biases for safety and control and then move on.

We are not flawed, in the same way a child is not flawed for wanting a night light because it is afraid of the darkness.

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