Joe Rogan IG Post, a Mind Infected by Ideology

[Rilles]

@Epikur @Raptorsin7 What do you consider self-censoring? Black on black violence is very high, I havent heard any serious Leftie disagreeing with that. But it doesnt solve the problem to keep harping on that, the real question is what are the solutions.

Heres Vaush self-censoring.    /s

[Raptorsin7]

12 minutes ago, Rilles said:

@Epikur @Raptorsin7 What do you consider self-censoring? Black on black violence is very high, I havent heard any serious Leftie disagreeing with that. But it doesnt solve the problem to keep harping on that, the real question is what are the solutions.

Heres Vaush self-censoring.    /s

The issue is a matter of degree and focus. Common sense would dictate that collective outrage should be targeted towards an issue like black on black violence. Imagine if there were marches and protests about the government not addressing this, against community members who propagate and spread the beliefs and ideology 

But instead you have organizations like BLM that garner all the attention and focus. Have you heard the stats about how poilce killings of black Americans is comparable to white killings statistically? Police killings are way on the bottom of the list of problems facing black america. There are better more holistic and inclusive places to place your moral outrage and energy. 

Here's my question for you. You know how when you watch a die hard trump supporter, you can automatically tell that his view is partial, skewed, bias etc. The die hard trump supporter does not have a clear mental filter on how to address political issues. Is it possible that political speakers like Vaush, Sam Seder etc are similarly partial, skewed, and bias in their perspective. The difference is you are aligned ideologically with Vaush etc so you don't see his approach has the same ideological blindspot as rightwingers.

I'm not saying die hard trump fans vaush and die hard trump fans are identical or both of equal intelligence, insight etc, but overall point is that there is truth to both sides of the political dimension, and these political youtubers etc do not have a complete and honest analysis of politics. The way this forum views trump supporters, you can have another group who views leftists with the same sense of moral superiority 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Well i've been a student. And the quality of the school didn't matter much because I was self motivated to learn. I learned most of what I knew from the textbooks, the teachers weren't all that important in hindsight.

I would assume you did that as a privileged person from a stable neighborhood/family.

 

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Do you believe students from poor neighborhoods like black/brown communities in the US, would perform well in school if increased funding dramatically? How much would you expect to spend?

We'll have to fix the neighborhoods and wait and see. Again, start on-the-ground.

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

I would assume you did that as a privileged person from a stable neighborhood/family.

 

Yes. But the point was that just increasing funding to schools will not necessarily lead to better results, because the individual is the most important factor in the equation.

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

We'll have to fix the neighborhoods and wait and see. Again, start on-the-ground.

That is part of the equation yes.

But you have to start with the people. A neighborhood is a collection of individuals. It starts and ends with dealing with individuals, and their own thoughts, beliefs, feelings etc

[Epikur]

46 minutes ago, Rilles said:

@Epikur @Raptorsin7 What do you consider self-censoring? Black on black violence is very high, I havent heard any serious Leftie disagreeing with that. But it doesnt solve the problem to keep harping on that, the real question is what are the solutions.

Heres Vaush self-censoring.    /s

Vaush is an exception here.

Youtube it with other leftists you will not get much results.

The reason Vaush deals with it because it became so popular in the underground mainstream that he had to address it. 
The way he addressed it was hey it is all socoio-economical and racism of gaps. Case closed.

Additionally Vaush is an optics guy. He is a moral relativist. So hard to take him serious. Check Destiny vs. Vaush.

It is like Tucker Carlson saying stuff against billionaires and big tech companies and siding with blue collar workers. You can not take it too serious.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Epikur

[Rilles]

45 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

The issue is a matter of degree and focus. Common sense would dictate that collective outrage should be targeted towards an issue like black on black violence. Imagine if there were marches and protests about the government not addressing this, against community members who propagate and spread the beliefs and ideology 

But instead you have organizations like BLM that garner all the attention and focus. Have you heard the stats about how poilce killings of black Americans is comparable to white killings statistically? Police killings are way on the bottom of the list of problems facing black america. There are better more holistic and inclusive places to place your moral outrage and energy. 

Here's my question for you. You know how when you watch a die hard trump supporter, you can automatically tell that his view is partial, skewed, bias etc. The die hard trump supporter does not have a clear mental filter on how to address political issues. Is it possible that political speakers like Vaush, Sam Seder etc are similarly partial, skewed, and bias in their perspective. The difference is you are aligned ideologically with Vaush etc so you don't see his approach has the same ideological blindspot as rightwingers.

I'm not saying die hard trump fans vaush and die hard trump fans are identical or both of equal intelligence, insight etc, but overall point is that there is truth to both sides of the political dimension, and these political youtubers etc do not have a complete and honest analysis of politics. The way this forum views trump supporters, you can have another group who views leftists with the same sense of moral superiority 

And then what? You expect a gang member to just lay down his arms? "Youre right guys, I didnt realize I was violent, how stupid of me, I will go find a job now." Give me a break. Violence is a response to a terrible survival situation and terrible socialization. 
 

Of course they have bias. But I would rather have people like Sam Seder being in charge of creating a better society than a right wing pundit. Bias is not automatically bad, if your bias is skewed towards helping a community instead of demonizing them it can actually be quite helpful. 

 

[DocWatts]

25 minutes ago, Rilles said:

And then what? You expect a gang member to just lay down his arms? "Youre right guys, I didnt realize I was violent, how stupid of me, I will go find a job now." Give me a break. Violence is a response to a terrible survival situation and terrible socialization. 

Well put. It's easy to demonize from a position of privilege.

If you happen to have grown up in a stable neighborhood with access to good schools and economic opportunities, its easy to take those things for granted.

It's also easy to not understand how growing up in a terrible survival situation damages people in lasting ways.

Maybe, just maybe, growing up in a stressful and dangerous environment where young men are treated like failures and criminals from an early age leads to toxic, dysfunctional behavior.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

the individual is the most important factor in the equation.

start with the people.

a collection of individuals.

It starts and ends with dealing with individuals

Place a group of individuals in a pool of lava and you'll see how the equation truly works.

I recommend getting familiar with the theory behind what we're talking about. Urie Bronfenbrenner's Ecological systems theory is a good start:

https://iteducationlearning.com/bronfenbrenner-theory/

Your analysis is biased towards the center.

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

I recommend getting familiar with the theory behind what we're talking about. Urie Bronfenbrenner's Ecological systems theory is a good start:

I am not saying that the society doesn't play a role and influences in the individual. 

I am saying there is a leftist blindspot against personal responsibility and the role of the individual in shaping the outcomes you observe. I am arguing for a more inclusive and holistic perspective that is not limited in its parts by a simple left and right dichotomy.

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Your analysis is biased towards the center.

I am biased toward the truth 

 

[Rilles]

7 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I am saying there is a leftist blindspot against personal responsibility and the role of the individual in shaping the outcomes you observe

He just posted a holistic model with the indidivual in the middle and yet youre still misinterpreting the position.

Im/were not Society vs Individual, were society + individual. Can you see the difference between those two? But how do you empower the individual without giving him a decent foundation? Would you tell concentration camps victims to just walk out of there and take responsibility too? Of course not. You have to look at every part and how it interplays. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Rilles

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I am saying there is a leftist blindspot against personal responsibility and the role of the individual in shaping the outcomes you observe.

You're going way beyond that. You're making claims like "the individual is the MOST important factor." Leftists are not making such claims, and they're not denying the importance of personal responsibility either. Ask a community psychologist (they're all leftists btw) what is more important for the health of society: collective or individual action? He/she would answer that it's a malformed question. They're interdependent. Like Rillies said, this is exactly what the model describes. To paraphrase Fritjof Capra: "there are no things, only relationships."

[Epikur]

52 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I am not saying that the society doesn't play a role and influences in the individual. 

I am saying there is a leftist blindspot against personal responsibility and the role of the individual in shaping the outcomes you observe. I am arguing for a more inclusive and holistic perspective that is not limited in its parts by a simple left and right dichotomy.

I am biased toward the truth 

 

Here Vaush my favorite grifter on personal responsibility
 

Does The Left Ignore Personal Responsibility? Centrist Comes on to Debate

[Raptorsin7]

58 minutes ago, Rilles said:

He just posted a holistic model with the indidivual in the middle and yet youre still misinterpreting the position.

Im/were not Society vs Individual, were society + individual. Can you see the difference between those two? But how do you empower the individual without giving him a decent foundation? Would you tell concentration camps victims to just walk out of there and take responsibility too? Of course not. You have to look at every part and how it interplays. 

I am not disagreeing with this.

My point is that we are not at a position where disenfranchised groups are in the midst of a holocaust. I agree that we need a comprehensive solution. My point is that the modern left does not have one.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Raptorsin7]

59 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're going way beyond that. You're making claims like "the individual is the MOST important factor." Leftists are not making such claims, and they're not denying the importance of personal responsibility either. Ask a community psychologist (they're all leftists btw) what is more important for the health of society: collective or individual action? He/she would answer that it's a malformed question. They're interdependent. Like Rillies said, this is exactly what the model describes. To paraphrase Fritjof Capra: "there are no things, only relationships."

I would say for the current state of black america for example, that the focus needs to be changed from blaming white supremacy, the system etc. To a focus on personal responsibility and empowerment. How can you change the culture that reinforces single motherhood and criminal behavior? I want these questions to at least be addressed and dealt with in a meaningful way by people on the left like Vaush,

I would agree they are interdependent. But only one side of the equation is discussed in online leftist political thought.

When you point out something like black on black violence, or the dramatic single motherhood rates, there is a label placed on you and the discussion gets shut down before it begins.

Can you show me where a leftist thinker seriously addresses the issue of black woman having multiple children by multiple men, and then rejecting male influence because the government can provide sufficient resources to raise the children. Which leads to men raised by only woman, which then contributes heavily to the dysfunctional culture of black america

Edited November 30, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Preety_India]

2 hours ago, Rilles said:

And then what? You expect a gang member to just lay down his arms? "Youre right guys, I didnt realize I was violent, how stupid of me, I will go find a job now." Give me a break. Violence is a response to a terrible survival situation and terrible socialization. 
 

Of course they have bias. But I would rather have people like Sam Seder being in charge of creating a better society than a right wing pundit. Bias is not automatically bad, if your bias is skewed towards helping a community instead of demonizing them it can actually be quite helpful. 

 

I so agree with this. Such wise words. Yes we need this mentality that you have. This Empathetic approach. Kudos. 

 

[Preety_India]

Personal responsibility is only fully viable when the Society is able to encourage and support. 

 

 

[Danioover9000]

   So, back to the main point of the thread: Was Joe Rogan shit posting or was he being serious when he modified the political compass image? Also, how does one shit post really well?

[Fleetinglife]

18 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So, back to the main point of the thread: Was Joe Rogan shit posting, or was he being serious when he modified the political compass image? Also, how does one shit post really well?

''Ted Cruz seems to think that the job of a United States senator is to shitpost on Twitter and own the libs. But playing at culture war can get people killed.

Cruz either does not know or does not care, that this is exactly what Putin is trying to achieve.''

Out of context making fun of and criticizing that concept with another unrelated one in another specific situation and context of the sometimes problematic motivations behind that type of behavior 

Source: https://www.thebulwark.com/meet-the-texas-secessionist-movement-brought-to-you-by-russia/

Edited November 30, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I would say for the current state of black america for example, that the focus needs to be changed from blaming white supremacy, the system etc. To a focus on personal responsibility and empowerment. How can you change the culture that reinforces single motherhood and criminal behavior? I want these questions to at least be addressed and dealt with in a meaningful way by people on the left like Vaush.

The reason personal responsibility is mentioned less is because it's obvious grade school level stuff that nobody denies the importance of, meanwhile the entire right-wing ideology is about actively denying the importance of structural change, so of course that is where you'll see the pushback.

If you were to actually educate yourself on the meaning of empowerment as a social intervention, you'll see that it has both systemic and individualistic aspects to it. It's also the case that structures provide a base for individuals to exercise their power in the first place. You can't build stable family dynamics on a pool of lava. You need to start on a firm ground. This is just a rehash of the bootstrap meme.

[Carl-Richard]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So, back to the main point of the thread: Was Joe Rogan shit posting or was he being serious when he modified the political compass image? Also, how does one shit post really well?

Stop ?