Raphael

I Have More and More Difficulties Assessing Myself With Models

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I noticed that I have increasing difficulties assessing myself with models. The models that I'm the most familiar with are Spiral Dynamics, The 9 Stages of Ego Development, and the MBTI. It was easier for me to use models to see where I was in life 2 - 3 years ago but now something feels a bit off.

I noticed thoughts, questions, and emotions arising:

  • I feel more and more difficulties assessing myself as being at a certain Spiral Dynamics stage or a certain Ego Development Stage. I can relate with many of these stages except the most advanced ones (Turquoise, The Unitive) but I feel less than before that I have a certain center of gravity. I feel a bit everywhere.
  • What does a model really mean in the end? Isn't it just a set of information that backed by a web of information feels like it means something? If in a language, words define other words, which then define other words, which then define other words... then a model doesn't mean anything. Assuming that all knowledge is imperfect, the question "Why should I trust a model?" is arising, however, at the same time, I'm conscious that models are useful and are helping me grow because in the relative context I'm a human being who use tools just like other human beings.
  • I feel more and more that the map is not the territory. I feel that I am in the middle of the paradox that the map is not the territory but is useful anyway. Things feel a bit chaotic and uncertain even though I can use imperfect models to orient myself.
  • No matter how much I assess myself, it will always be incorrect, infinitely distant from who I am, and not represent me.
  • Any developmental model is basically a tool to guide ourselves on the path. However, the path from a certain perspective is just a concept. From the absolute perspective there is no path, the path is an illusion. What exists is experience, the now, or whatever we want to call that. I'm conscious that both sides of this paradox need to be integrated.
  • The path is very uncertain. I can use models to orient myself and convince myself that I'm going somewhere, but I can get killed and everything will be over.
  • My intuition is telling me to drop all models and just look at areas that I want to improve and focus on things that I want to do. My intuition is also telling me to follow my intuition more, but at the same time my intuition knows that models help to develop and sharpen intuition. So I'm going to continue using models but with awareness of their limitations.
  • Rejecting models can come from below and come from above. From below the ego is trying to convince itself that it is better and doesn't need models. From above, it is a recognition that models are useful but limited and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
  • I feel that my ego is trying to trick me. He wants to show himself as being above models by dismissing how useful models can be.

Who relates to this?

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It's normal. You've simply grown past the usability of these models, because now you know yourself more intimately and accurately than the information they provide. You are realizing your infinite nature, and your full potential is beginning to come to light.

Trust yourself, Raphael. You're doing great.

Edited by Gesundheit2

Have faith.

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Of course all those models are far too limited to capture the uniqueness and fullness of what you are.

Those models are just helpful for showing you which areas of yourself you could be working on and what you have overlooked developing.

Hold the models loosely. Don't be afraid to let them go when necessary. You can always pick them back up tomorrow, or next month, or next year. You can go through a phase where you do lots of work using the models. And then switch to a phase when you drop all models. And switch back to models again to see if you've missed anything important.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Relative reality is speech. Speak because you're spoken to, not because you understand (my new favorite quote :P).


To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

It's normal. You've simply grown past the usability of these models, because now you know yourself more intimately and accurately than the information they provide. You are realizing your infinite nature, and your full potential is beginning to come to light.

Trust yourself, Raphael. You're doing great.

No. It's an ego trick.

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@Raphael I do 100% I try to enjoy my "cosmic address" as well as possible. The mind clings to know and wants to hold things as beign certain no matter how useful the model is. The map is unfortunately not the territory. Although it helps to navigate the territory. 

I notice also that just sheer emotionality is lacking when it comes to depth when applying thinking about any model.  Also, it's not easy to break out of this practical mind as well as spininng concept over concept. The full nihilist "atheist" perspective is to see the beauty in the futility of it and to feel this is very hard to do. 

I notice this everytime I post here and this is one reason I want to post more beautiful stuff, and emobdy more emotionality it's about Love and Truth. The truth might not be as sweet as love, as well as there are some issues with meaning creation. Let alone trauma, relationships, unable to see the unity in differences. Conditoning the body, toxic chemicals w/e. 

You can read maps leading to non-duality and they are great for guidance and having reference material. It does sometimes feel like life is an simulation in order for us to gather experience. I mean How are we even alive ? This is now some sci-fi stuff. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

There is so much complicated stuff out there just enjoying the map noticing helps alot. I also cling to certainity of knowing, yet I feel this is mostly like an emotional game. 

There is way way more models and maps besides just spiral dynamics and the 9 stages of ego development. The entire pathologies of Tier 3 are listed in ROT. I can't tell how useful this is, as well as applicable. 

I had the issues forgetting about the practicals about when I looked into every theory that exists, even if I do not understand it. There is alot of value and I notice this more to understand and implement things systemically and solve the root cause in ones personal life, especially emotionally. 

There are also some issues gauging stages when it comes to development. As the emotional line is amiss completely with most people. As this is one core pillar to be integrated.


 

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50 minutes ago, Raphael said:

No. It's an ego trick.

Love yourself.


Have faith.

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8 hours ago, Raphael said:

No. It's an ego trick.

Omg I love this so much Haha:D realize that the ego trick could be that you say it is an ego trip.

10 hours ago, Raphael said:

I noticed that I have increasing difficulties assessing myself with models. The models that I'm the most familiar with are Spiral Dynamics, The 9 Stages of Ego Development, and the MBTI. It was easier for me to use models to see where I was in life 2 - 3 years ago but now something feels a bit off.

I noticed thoughts, questions, and emotions arising:

  • I feel more and more difficulties assessing myself as being at a certain Spiral Dynamics stage or a certain Ego Development Stage. I can relate with many of these stages except the most advanced ones (Turquoise, The Unitive) but I feel less than before that I have a certain center of gravity. I feel a bit everywhere.
  • What does a model really mean in the end? Isn't it just a set of information that backed by a web of information feels like it means something? If in a language, words define other words, which then define other words, which then define other words... then a model doesn't mean anything. Assuming that all knowledge is imperfect, the question "Why should I trust a model?" is arising, however, at the same time, I'm conscious that models are useful and are helping me grow because in the relative context I'm a human being who use tools just like other human beings.
  • I feel more and more that the map is not the territory. I feel that I am in the middle of the paradox that the map is not the territory but is useful anyway. Things feel a bit chaotic and uncertain even though I can use imperfect models to orient myself.
  • No matter how much I assess myself, it will always be incorrect, infinitely distant from who I am, and not represent me.
  • Any developmental model is basically a tool to guide ourselves on the path. However, the path from a certain perspective is just a concept. From the absolute perspective there is no path, the path is an illusion. What exists is experience, the now, or whatever we want to call that. I'm conscious that both sides of this paradox need to be integrated.
  • The path is very uncertain. I can use models to orient myself and convince myself that I'm going somewhere, but I can get killed and everything will be over.
  • My intuition is telling me to drop all models and just look at areas that I want to improve and focus on things that I want to do. My intuition is also telling me to follow my intuition more, but at the same time my intuition knows that models help to develop and sharpen intuition. So I'm going to continue using models but with awareness of their limitations.
  • Rejecting models can come from below and come from above. From below the ego is trying to convince itself that it is better and doesn't need models. From above, it is a recognition that models are useful but limited and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
  • I feel that my ego is trying to trick me. He wants to show himself as being above models by dismissing how useful models can be.

Who relates to this?

I relate a lot. I realize that I for example am super stage yellow in my center of gravity yet super stage orange at the same time.

It's almost like I am super unconcious yet super concious at the same time. I am in other words the most unconcious concious idiot XDXD

I understand your confusion and frustration of not being able to peg yourself somewhere. You want to understand where you are at so that you can controll the world better, and therefor counterintuitively make a modell out of it not being a modell. It's very tricky.

Just keep doing the work. You are so on the right track, you're doing great!

 

 


"Sometimes when it's dark - we have to be the light in our own tunnel"

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Are you feeling spread out and confused in the ego models in ways such as: still working on survival day-to-day things, but also searching for spiritually and meaning? 

A writing exercise you could do is: Which areas and points of the model currently represent you? Which do you want to be? Which areas sometimes represent you? And which don't? Then after writing those down...does it really matter pin pointing where you are on the model after that? If what you wrote down represents you at the time, then you've got some answers right there catered towards yourself. If you don't know where you're at, could the conflict be not the models, but that you feel unclear about describing and knowing where you are at and who you are, personality/ego wise?

18 hours ago, Raphael said:

No matter how much I assess myself, it will always be incorrect, infinitely distant from who I am, and not represent me.

Just an idea but maybe you could set aside some time in making your own stream-of-conscious individualized model of where you think your at right now, and see what comes up. :) I've tried it before at it gave me quick surprising results. 

 

---

I think those models are good at noticing trends of patterns in development. But they confuse me as well at times, especially when my personality and life circumstances is changing or turbulent and uncertain, I usually resonate with 2 or 3 at once with a little bit of others all at once. If the models are bothering you and making you feel conflicted/paradoxical/unwhole than I think that following your intuition is a good idea, to just focus on what you can improve on, what can most benefit your life, and what you want to follow or are inspired by.

I try not to take models too seriously or literally, and make it into more of a curiosity thing to learn about when I'm in the mood for it. If I'm searching for life answers the models can be very helpful in learning about about myself at first, but after learning the basics of a model it doest help me to run through my mind and figure out where I place within those models, or to perfect my understanding in those models, unless I want to learn more for the sake of learning and curiosity. After looking through the list of examples and trends of each model I try to get the overall 'feel' for each one, instead of analyzing it too much. I try to follow whatever I like acting as or want to act as, and reading about the models can help me either thing 'Hey I resonate with that.' or, 'I want to be more like that.' Instead of worrying about labeling myself as any single thing. 

But I do get that it can be quite frustrating when trying to figure out and orient yourself in understanding the world, your ego, not understanding how your mind is correlating with the ego, to not have clarity, and models can't quite give you that.

 For me personally I've found that it helps the most to follow my intuition and desires first, and mind second, in hopes that understanding will more naturally fall through, because my mind tends to want to complicate things in areas that don't need to be complicated, and intuition acts more as a cut-to-the-chase simplifier and editor. 

Edited by Myioko

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18 hours ago, Raphael said:

I noticed that I have increasing difficulties assessing myself with models. The models that I'm the most familiar with are Spiral Dynamics, The 9 Stages of Ego Development, and the MBTI. It was easier for me to use models to see where I was in life 2 - 3 years ago but now something feels a bit off.

I noticed thoughts, questions, and emotions arising:

  • I feel more and more difficulties assessing myself as being at a certain Spiral Dynamics stage or a certain Ego Development Stage. I can relate with many of these stages except the most advanced ones (Turquoise, The Unitive) but I feel less than before that I have a certain center of gravity. I feel a bit everywhere.
    • That's natural imo, We are never just one thing. We're at different places at once. But if you want (again you don't have to if this feels too much but if you genuinely want to) to sort this out so it feels more organized, I'd say to to break down where you are in each area of your life. Like the way you feel about career might be orange / green but the way you analyze things and your approach to education might be yellow. 
  • What does a model really mean in the end? Isn't it just a set of information that backed by a web of information feels like it means something? If in a language, words define other words, which then define other words, which then define other words... then a model doesn't mean anything. Assuming that all knowledge is imperfect, the question "Why should I trust a model?" is arising, however, at the same time, I'm conscious that models are useful and are helping me grow because in the relative context I'm a human being who use tools just like other human beings.
    • You shouldn't trust a model completely because no model is a theory of everything. They are just measuring tools to measure a specific facet of life no matter how broad or useful their implementation maybe. Big picture models can only account for so many small details, especially small details pertaining to the individual. 
  • I feel more and more that the map is not the territory. I feel that I am in the middle of the paradox that the map is not the territory but is useful anyway. Things feel a bit chaotic and uncertain even though I can use imperfect models to orient myself.
    • Imperfect models can help you orient yourself and give you a sense of where you see yourself going but they aren't going to map out everything in your way as, like you said, it isn't the territory.
  • No matter how much I assess myself, it will always be incorrect, infinitely distant from who I am, and not represent me.
    • I wouldn't say incorrect, just incomplete.  2+2 still equals 4 but that's not all there is to life. 
  • Any developmental model is basically a tool to guide ourselves on the path. However, the path from a certain perspective is just a concept. From the absolute perspective there is no path, the path is an illusion. What exists is experience, the now, or whatever we want to call that. I'm conscious that both sides of this paradox need to be integrated.
    • I think this is a good train of thought to have but then again it's because I find myself coming to similar conclusions. I personally use these developmental models to track my progress and give a sense of structure to my journey but I try not to be too rigid about it and still pay attention what's happening to me here and now. 
  • The path is very uncertain. I can use models to orient myself and convince myself that I'm going somewhere, but I can get killed and everything will be over.
  • My intuition is telling me to drop all models and just look at areas that I want to improve and focus on things that I want to do. My intuition is also telling me to follow my intuition more, but at the same time my intuition knows that models help to develop and sharpen intuition. So I'm going to continue using models but with awareness of their limitations.
    • If your intuition is telling you to drop all models and look at areas to improve yourself, do that. There isn't much of a point to using a model if you aren't getting much out of it. As for using models to sharpen intuition, I would say that try not to think about the models or spiral stages and focus on the areas to improve yourself but then look at them every 6 months or so to check if you're on the right track. 
  • Rejecting models can come from below and come from above. From below the ego is trying to convince itself that it is better and doesn't need models. From above, it is a recognition that models are useful but limited and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
    • I think this is a very valid point to make. And in my opinion, based on the things you have been saying on this post, I think you're rejecting from above. 
  • I feel that my ego is trying to trick me. He wants to show himself as being above models by dismissing how useful models can be.
    • That doubt is always there but if you find yourself fixating on this neurotically, maybe your ego is trying to convince you that your ego is trying to let go of models as a part of it's deception when the real deception is that the ego is telling you this so that you'll hold on longer and tighter. 

 


I'm just here man.....

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17 hours ago, Raphael said:

No. It's an ego trick.

Or maybe your ego wants you to think it's an ego trick9_9


I'm just here man.....

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yeah i can relate. for me models just feel too inaccurate to fully depict who i am, where im at, and what i need or desire 

a lot of models are just straight irrelevant to me. sometimes theyre incomplete to my needs. sometimes theyre inaccurate. sometimes theyre not that useful as i previously thought

sometimes theyre useful 

for me i had to question why i was even using the models in the first place and if they were the right ones for me. 

Edited by Jacob Morres

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Though it is another pickup thread hehe

Yeah, man, I feel like I am transcending the notion of models too lately. They can be useful for sure, but pure raw insights are superior to any knowledge you can get. Being > Knowledge. In a sense, reading way too many books and way too many models is a huge waste of time if you're not using other modes of cognition and learning. You are basically making your metaphysics rely on some symbolic work people made in the past and it has a lot of limitations

What's cool is that once you learn how to get your own insights, you no longer need that many models and you can so much easily create your own and tinker with existing ones/your own. Most people who learn models won't be able to play with them very much, they will treat them as rigid rules, but you will be able to

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13 hours ago, Myioko said:

Are you feeling spread out and confused in the ego models in ways such as: still working on survival day-to-day things, but also searching for spiritually and meaning?

Yes. I know the overall direction that I want to take, I have a vision but at the same time I'm still dealing with basic things. A part of me feels very developed while a few other essential parts feel underdeveloped. This is confusing for me to put myself somewhere.

13 hours ago, Myioko said:

A writing exercise you could do is: Which areas and points of the model currently represent you? Which do you want to be? Which areas sometimes represent you? And which don't? Then after writing those down...does it really matter pin pointing where you are on the model after that? If what you wrote down represents you at the time, then you've got some answers right there catered towards yourself. If you don't know where you're at, could the conflict be not the models, but that you feel unclear about describing and knowing where you are at and who you are, personality/ego wise?

Just an idea but maybe you could set aside some time in making your own stream-of-conscious individualized model of where you think your at right now, and see what comes up. :) I've tried it before at it gave me quick surprising results.

These are really nice thoughts, thank you.

13 hours ago, Myioko said:

They confuse me as well at times, especially when my personality and life circumstances is changing or turbulent and uncertain, I usually resonate with 2 or 3 at once with a little bit of others all at once.

Yeah, I'm currently experiencing something like this.

Edited by Raphael

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@soos_mite_ah

Quote

If you want (again you don't have to if this feels too much but if you genuinely want to) to sort this out so it feels more organized, I'd say to to break down where you are in each area of your life.

I actually have some shame and shadows here related to my approach to personal development that lacks some structure and organization. I consider that this is why this reaction against models and self-assesment is an ego reaction from me.

Quote

Maybe your ego is trying to convince you that your ego is trying to let go of models as a part of it's deception when the real deception is that the ego is telling you this so that you'll hold on longer and tighter.

Maybe.

Edited by Raphael

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10 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

Yeah, man, I feel like I am transcending the notion of models too lately. They can be useful for sure, but pure raw insights are superior to any knowledge you can get. Being > Knowledge. In a sense, reading way too many books and way too many models is a huge waste of time if you're not using other modes of cognition and learning. You are basically making your metaphysics rely on some symbolic work people made in the past and it has a lot of limitations

What's cool is that once you learn how to get your own insights, you no longer need that many models and you can so much easily create your own and tinker with existing ones/your own. Most people who learn models won't be able to play with them very much, they will treat them as rigid rules, but you will be able to

Yeah, I felt that a lot in the past and I actually discovered many things intuitively even though I consumed a lot of knowledge too.

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