Leilani

Calling out Leo

91 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

But remember, no one ever said that Absolute Truth will be easy or comfortable. It might completely destroy your life. And you should know that I don't really care if it does. Because what I care about is Truth, even if kills every human on this planet. Truth is a dangerous thing. Think twice whether you actually want it. No one here is forcing you to pursue Absolute Truth. Do it only if you absolutely can't stand to live without it.

See this is why you are dangerous. You literally don't care. You also sound like Richard Rose here. Just because you experienced something does not mean you know more than everyone else. YOU have no idea what other people have or have not experienced. You don't care that you could actually be missing key components to all of this? You don't care that you could actually be wrong and destroying peoples lives in the name of truth for something you could be very wrong about? Do you know how many people swear up and down that what they have experienced is true? I was in group homes with people like that. Try telling my schizophrenic friend that her twin sister who kept getting raped didn't exist or the dragons she was having sleepovers with were not real. She would look at you like you were crazy. How will people know if they did take DMT and experienced what you did if it was actual truth or if it was influenced by what you said and told them would happen. And saying things like it upsets you because on some level you know its true is dangerously close to brain washing. 

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12 minutes ago, Leilani said:

@Leo Gura

Stop trying to become God; God is becoming you. Here. -Mellen Thomas Benedict NDE experiencer I really think you don't understand that many people have gone as far as you but you are actually missing the whole point of being here. 

Our bodies hold so much wisdom. 

I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions about Leo and people's experience with psychedelics, then you cite some new age guy as a source of wisdom and truth? I don't know why you find his NDE testimony more credible than a testimony by Leo. Are you calling out Leo for not agreeing with this Thomas Benedict fellow? 

I'd much rather just do DMT and ask myself these questions. And I greatly appreciate Leo's wisdom to recognize that is how it has to be for each individual. 

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@SgtPepper My point is that there are a lot of people who have experienced what Leo has I mean a lot. A vast majority of them had NDES where they went to the void. Mellen Thomas benedict is just one example but the difference with the NDE is they seem to come back with a more full experience. With a better understanding of why we are here and that life is actually where its at. Where you understand the beauty of our emotions and relationships with each other. He seems to think he has gone farther than anyone else ever when I have seen many reports of people who have gone to the "Void" and experienced that its more than that. Babies are first created in the womb but when you are a child would you discount your own existence because technically it all first began in the womb? Would you try and desperately get back to your mother's womb and say everything else is just delusion? When you eat food do you sit there and tell yourself its not real its just made of this and that at the most basic level so that somehow makes the experience of eating it less than? What is the point of truth without the beauty of the experience? How will you know its truth if you heard Leos teachings before experiencing it? I really have experienced what he is talking about. It was terrifying and I remember having to hold myself together after because I kept feeling like I was going to dissolve but after the experience I fell in love and experienced deep connections with people that made the "truth" of that not matter at all. 

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It sounds like you are discussing nihilism, like just a sense of meaninglessness that can accompany with some awakenings? It's impossible for us to know what is in each other's experience, but I have experienced that sense of nihilism and I did overcome it. It doesn't change that everything is made of the 'Void' or the one substance that is God or as Leo would put it - imagination, but it ultimately ended up improving my life because it turned everything into divinity.

So I'll still slurp soup knowing that it is soup while at the same time it is made of consciousness. 

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1 minute ago, SgtPepper said:

It sounds like you are discussing nihilism, like just a sense of meaninglessness that can accompany with some awakenings? It's impossible for us to know what is in each other's experience, but I have experienced that sense of nihilism and I did overcome it. It doesn't change that everything is made of the 'Void' or the one substance that is God or as Leo would put it - imagination, but it ultimately ended up improving my life because it turned everything into divinity.

So I'll still slurp soup knowing that it is soup while at the same time it is made of consciousness. 

@SgtPepper This is perfect! Yes everything is divine every person, everythithing. Leos realization are relatively new to him and I really don't feel like he is fully integrated and it can be dangerous to teach from that place. He also seems to lack humility and is stuck on this "truth"  I more mean truth can only take you so far. Many people understand that everything is made up of God but how loving are your relationships? How much fun do you have in your day to day? How deep are you connections? there are some things that can't be understood or quantified and that is where the real beauty is. 

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While I won't deny that I've gotten a ton of value from what Leo has created with actualized.org, I also can't deny that his lack of humility on existential questions is something that he deserves to be criticized for.

This goes beyond disagreements on epistemology and metaphysics (which in and of itself isnt undesirable), but treating his own answers to these questions as necessarily True for everyone else as well.


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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I'm new to this forum and new to spirituality. I was a fundamentalist Christian, then an atheist, now I'd describe myself as spiritual but not religious or maybe spiritual curious.

I'm no one's expert, only a handful of mushroom trips under my belt and there probably won't be more because I'm old and have high BP. But for what it's worth here's my take: look at this like a buffet. 

I don't buy everything Leo says, but too much of it rings true to dismiss him. I take a little bit from him, a little bit from Carl Jung, Alan Watts, the Tao Te Ching, Buddhism, Joseph Campbell, various psychonauts and new agers. I think there's horseshit everywhere, but you can't call it all horseshit. A lot of it lines up.

Find what seems true for you and be willing to change your mind. Some of the new things I see as true now, I dismissed before. All these trip and NDE reports are subjective. You can't go into anyone else's mind. You can't study this stuff in a lab. Maybe some of it means nothing, but consciousness exists. We all live inside it. I appreciate Leo giving us his takes. I'll decide for myself. 

As for young people and psychs... I think we should all be careful with them. Some people are playing with dynamite. Leo has included warnings in some of his videos. Maybe there should be more.

Nihilism and solipsism scare me too, but what can you do? I had thoughts about them as early as 9 years old. Mark Twain wrote about solipsism. It's going to come up. 

 

Edited by Late Boomer

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@Leo Gura

Also I just have to say one last thing. No it does not infuriate me because on some level "I know its the truth."  how brain washy by the way?! It infuriates me because I wasted so much damn time on finding this "truth" and obsessing about it that it caused so much damage to my relationships and life. It infuriates me because I bet in 5 years you will see all of this so differently "like I did" and wish you hadn't wasted so much of your energy on this and you will have to sit with the guilt of the pain you caused others. It infuriates me because you deluded yourself with DMT after studying these concepts for years  and didnt stop to think that maybe those teachings influenced you in any way. You then lay claim to absolute truth. You lay claim to the mind of God and think no one else gets it. Does that not sound like ego to you? When I was 18 after taking a couple of hits of acid I was on the phone calling my friends crying because I didn't think they were real in fact "I knew it" You really don't know what I have or haven't experienced and your arrogance is nauseating. You are teaching these things to mentally unstable people. people who have probably suffered a lot (because that seems to be most peoples route to wanting to understand truth) You don't care about the impact this could have on others? Do you guys who are following some random youtuber who boofed dmt hear this? He doesn't care what his teachings do to you or the world. Please proceed with caution. He is dangerous. Leo please it takes someone who has had an NDE on average 7 years to integrate their massive experience you need to take some time like years to process this before deciding whether or not you should be teaching anyone. 

Edited by Leilani

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You people need to understand that its %100 actually possible to integrate and live a Meaningful,  Christian, Orange stage Go-Getter Life regardless of the fact that this Reality its imagination and you are alone in the whole universe.

 

 

 

Edited by Alex_R

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@Leilani When I first learned about spirituality and later non-duality, I did a lot of stupid stuff that I regret later on, like not joining my best friend to play music for a year because I interpreted the idea of improving my guitar skills as an "ego game". I also messed up my high school grades by "living in the now" (smoking weed full-time and repressing every thought resembling a conscience). I even bet if I never discovered those ideas, I would still find a way to screw myself up somehow, because I had some unresolved emotional issues that I had to work through (repressed id/Red).

My point is that there will always exist ways to fuck yourself up as an unstable person, and it's not as easy as saying "outlaw this and this and this, and everyone will be safe". Although it's true that the more radical the teachings become, the greater the danger for misinterpretation and the ego co-opting it as a survival mechanism, that is a possibility with literally anything. I mean, I basically interpreted "live in the now" as "fuck up your future" ? (like, hello??). Remember that we're anyway living in a highly dysfunctional world. You can child lock it all you want, but dysfunction will still be a fact.


To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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12 hours ago, Harlen Kelly said:

How did you make that measurement to determine how much deeper the realization you are describing is? 

Be specific.

Total Omniscience

11 hours ago, Loba said:

Interesting, you feel that your experiences have been stronger (not sur what word to use here) than those who have had NDE's?

Of course

What I am talking about makes an NDE look like a joke.

Death will never occur. It is imaginary. An NDE is an imaginary event, part of the dream designed to keep you asleep.

Quote

Because I have had one, and so sometimes I cling to what it has shown me over what is taught here.
I am still open minded to having different types of experiences, though, but I have never had the full "I am 'The' Bubble" one and a few others people talk about here, but at the same time I don't see a lot of talk of the types of experiences I have had here - in other places yes, though.

I guess what I am trying to say is, should I let go of those experiences?

You can become infinitely conscious, totally omniscient. You can know how you create the entire Universe. At this level of consciousness nothing will exist but yourself.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Yes, a brilliant showdown, let me pop a can of coke cola and devour this marvelous drama !!

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@Leilani  I am sorry you seemed to have experienced some bad trips and post-mystical experiences. If you wanna talk, I am here. Just stay committed to whatever you are seeking and take time to focus on yourself.

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10 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

It sounds like you are discussing nihilism, like just a sense of meaninglessness that can accompany with some awakenings? 

Sounds like you might refer to the dark night of the soul, I've had quite a few of these bleak excursions and how everyone was just mechanical lifeless entities reacting to a world of chaotic innocence,

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11 hours ago, Leilani said:

@SgtPepperMany people understand that everything is made up of God but how loving are your relationships? How much fun do you have in your day to day? How deep are you connections? there are some things that can't be understood or quantified and that is where the real beauty is. 

Hi, I can 100% understand this, I saw this as my own karmic propensity like a sticky mass manifesting me into the world, if I didn't have a messy family or friend relationships to revel in I'd likely dissipitate into the infinite and I'd have no purpose here, after all to be humans involves the poetic need for meaninful relationships, whether messy and in need of unconditional presense or even just messy and that's the way things are for the person until further evolution/creation when they meet others ,,,

Idk my mother being one of them, I didn't want her to think I were dead because I realized eveyone left behind still believes in death if I were to move on into infinity, but I get irritated with relationships and often hate people or I feel shame and guilt and wish I dissipitated into infinity like Sadghuru's wife, or at least that's what I suspect to be the case, unless as you pointed out about leo saying that this is all my imagination, but how to I see this without drugs involved ,,, Maybe some sort of practise, unless I am supposed in this world and not escaping it towards god awakeneing as you are clearly pointing out ...

I have also seen some radical infinity type of stuff on drugs like Leo's perhaps, except I didn't go exploring it because I'm a human for a reason, not God, so it doesn't reeeeeeally have much value to me awakening fully as God and perhaps even leaving the body and manifestations if it were possible when diving to deep into the 'truth'

Edited by Yeah Yeah

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@Ry4n When I say we did not come here to become God what I mean is we did not come here in my humble opinion to discount the human experience. "Leo I'm sorry, but it's statements like this that show you've still got some work to do pulling your head out of your ass. Not having any stink of arrogance or holiness is the last word of Zen; the complete integration of Absolute and Relative, where real spiritual maturity lies. I'm checking your ego from a place of love here. Actually live it, not just preach it. I know you are capable of that. Namaste."

Also this is exactly what I am talking about. Integration. A lot of people actually have understood and experienced what he is talking about but it takes years to fully integrate it all. He reminds me of how I was when I first had my experiences. Teal swan is someone who I feel like is a good example of how to live an integrated life.

 

@Leo Gura Have you actually read near death experiences? I am going to paste a few examples here because many and I mean many of them talk about you are seem to be pointing at in your teachings. I get annoyed with you at times because you seem to think no one gets it. Also NDER'S come back with the knowing that there is not death at all. Here are a few examples please tell me what you think:

Cami R described it like on the NDERF site:

'I crossed into a state that was deep, fundamental, irreducible. An ocean of exquisite sensitivity, of omnisentience (sensing everywhere at once), turned me inside out to reveal itself at the core. Losing every sense of distinction, I floated as part of this gloriously intelligent web of light. Even the

awesome flavors and energies from previous states of consciousness looked trivial compared to this luminous irreducible force, this field of existence. It seemed to be an order of magnitude different from the earlier experiences. This was the force of consciousness itself. There was no 'I' left whatsoever, not even the broad perspective from the life review. My boundaries as a human and as a spirit were completely erased. Witnessing from a localized single point, my perspective was simultaneously spread through the multidimensional, nonlocalized perspective of the entire web. There was no end and no beginning, like the lake underneath the forms that dance through our lives. This was beyond bliss, beyond truth, beyond peace and ecstasy and all the searing emotions of the previous stages. It was stillness in the middle, consciousness without form

John Scott NDE:

It’s almost if not impossible to describe the source light because it is everything and nothing simultaneously, that’s what I saw; a conundrum full of dualistic opposites within one united energy field on every level of cognition.

Hafur NDE:

***We live in a 'Plural Unity' or 'Oneness'. In other words, our reality is 'Unity in Plurality and Plurality in Unity’.

***I was everything and everything was me, without essential differences other than in temporal appearances.

***There is no external god, but that god is in everything and everything in god, just as life itself.

***There is no God outside ourselves but is, rather, in everything and everything is a part of God, as is life itself.

***God is everything and nothing at the same time.

***Everyone and everything, or temporal phenomenon within this dimension, is where it should be because it emanates from the blueprint of a shared dream (if we can call it that) that is repeated indefinitely until we understand what is essential or real.

***Everything is part of an essential game of life itself, and that to the degree that we live by true love, unconditional and universal, the closer we are to an understanding what life truly is, which is true happiness and perfect wisdom.

***Everything is experience and that this life and the next are essentially the same because everything is god. Nothing is outside of god just as nothing is outside of life itself.

***Death is a metamorphosis of time. One more illusion from our mental concepts. Essentially, time does not exist, nor does space. They are illusions of our creative mind that plays a game of self-deception in the creation of events.

***'I' includes 'We' and are like a mirror where we perceive the reflection of our reality in its many facets and illusions.

***The 'creator' is eternally creating, and one of the creations is the practice of conscious love. 'One learns to paint by painting'. That's why this 'temporal human illusory creation' exists as though it were a matrix within another matrix and this, within another - multi-dimensionally until we wake up.

***I experienced something that can't be transmitted with words but that can be expressed as 'The Essence of Life is its Total Nothingness’ (please understand 'Nothingness' as something that has no intrinsic substance, but is rather constructed by a multitude of phenomena, which in turn are formed by other untold multitude of phenomena to the point of infinity). I understood that intangible, indescribable life is all that exists. There is no death (it's only a description to show the polarities in the world of phenomena).

***Consciously living by love is the essence of life itself and is made manifest or materializes in this plane of existence as a cohesive force to recreate itself in multiple forms as a game in which nothingness recreates itself in temporary, illusory events.

***The known universe is a fraction of infinite reality that by love has become finite pieces in our temporal 'hands'.

***I learned thousands of other things without end, and it is difficult to express in words because words are insufficient, they can't describe what I experienced in this other state of consciousness that was much clearer than this one.

When I returned to this life, I felt I had fallen into a very heavy space, and that my body was as lead and my mind was the same and very slow.

I saw my loved ones, family and friends as if they were nothing to me. They were only reflections in the great theater of life, and each one voluntarily agreed to play a part in order to learn more and better how to love. I spoke with them to tell them of my experience, and they looked at me as though I were crazy. I realized they didn't understand what I was saying to them.

Little by little, my experience grew faint, but there appeared many new special experiences of telepathy, intuition developed between others such as voluntary out of body experiences and involuntary bi-location. I especially cannot control the latter, and I would like to know using conventional language how this phenomenon happens.

I only know that everything is eternal, pure consciousness and that we are in a mental dream that is permanently being constructed as a dynamic of consciousness that knows itself and recreates itself through each one of us. That we are the 'point of emptiness' where the void or nothingness of the universe becomes aware of itself. It is really hard to explain this. I know that everything I saw originates from thoughts, or the Universal Mind. It is projected in images and events that interact with lucid consciousness as an experience, and that this whole experience is a part the infinitude of that which is real on every plain or level of existence that we want to invent or divide into pieces so that our temporal mind can decipher it despite its limitations. I believe I understood that what we call God is the silence of indescribable life that is in everything, and everything is in it. As an analogy, we could use the image of steam, converted into water, then into ice. Once it is in that state, ice forgets that it is steam with its capacity for expansion. This is what happens to us in this plane of consciousness. I believe I understood that what we call God is the silence of indescribable life that is in everything and in which everything exists or is within it. A marvelous, loving and conscious eternity.

Note: I feel that all the images that were created in my mind during this experience, before entering into the light, are symbolic thought forms of something perhaps more profound that could serve in support of a translation of that which is essential experience. It is impossible to explain with our limited human language, yet I am now trying to decipher it little by little.

I noticed a change in the speed my mind worked and developed my intuition or universal perception of life. It is difficult to translate with my physical brain, that which is essential or infinite with conventional language.

Perhaps through the art of telepathic communication, soul to soul, it can be done. I will continue trying to do this, and will try see if someone who has experienced this same phenomenon, or who has had a similar experience, has another part of the verbal puzzle. Among all of us, we can put together a clearer picture that can benefit those who do not read.

I ask your indulgence for my limitations and hope that I haven't confused anyone. I will conclude by saying:

'From but one piece of clay, many forms can be made
At what time during the experience were you at your highest level of consciousness and alertness? When I entered into the light. I entered into the 'void' and into 'everything' at the same time. I became fused with the light and reality became aware of itself. I realized everything was God and is permanently creating. Nothingness creating nothingness. Truthfully, I do not know how to express or transmit this with words. They limit me.

 

Mellen Thomas Benedict NDE:

At this point of my near-death experience, I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void.

I was in pre-creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word / the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply, I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

The ancients knew of this. They said God had periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and recreated other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang. I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and recreating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.

It took me years after I returned from my near-death experience to assimilate any words at all for the Void experience. I can tell you this now: the Void is less than nothing, yet more than everything that is! The Void is absolute zero; chaos forming all possibilities. It is Absolute Consciousness; much more than even Universal Intelligence. The Void is the vacuum or nothingness between all physical manifestations. The SPACE between atoms and their components. Modern science has begun to study this space between everything. They call it Zero point. Whenever they try to measure it, their instruments go off the scale, or to infinity, so to speak. They have no way, as of yet, to measure infinity accurately. There is more of the zero space in your own body and the Universe than anything else!

What mystics call the Void is not a void. It is so full of energy, a different kind of energy that has created everything that we are. Everything since the Big Bang is vibration, from the first Word, which is the first vibration. The biblical “I am” really has a question mark after it. “I am — What am I?” So creation is God exploring God’s Self through every way imaginable, in an ongoing, infinite exploration through every one of us. I began to see during my near-death experience that everything that is, is the Self, literally, your Self, my Self. Everything is the great Self. That is why God knows even when a leaf falls. That is possible because wherever you are is the center of the universe. Wherever any atom is, that is the center of the universe. There is God in that, and God in the Void.

 

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@Leo Gura one more NDE: 

Does this not sound anything like what you describe experiencing? 

1. Surfing incident

2. Caught in a trough under water in huge surf.

3. Panic knowing I am going to drown.

4. Realized I had to give up, could not hold breath any longer.

5. Sudden calmness and resignation; loss track of body.

6. Clear and graphic life review as if certain events were cataloged.

7. Visualized a large green blue circle with a feeling of depth but did not look like tunnel.

8. Suddenly found myself in a large hall with a stone bath being washed by humanoid aliens; very peaceful (this was certainly a subjective illusion).

9. Sudden transformation into a realm of timeless Absolute Beauty, Absolute Love and Absolute Infinity. The radiance was literally unbearable.

10. Absolute forgiveness, non-judgment, non-duality, timeless, no blame or retribution, no sin karma and no reincarnation. No God as there was no subject or object of attention I AM That.

11. Beyond science, religion, spirituality, new age phantasmagoria. This is the most real insight of my whole life and clearly remains with me after thirty years.

In my hippy years experimented with drugs e.g. acid however nothing, but nothing, compares with this insight. Also came across a similar state during meditation. Somewhere in this process, I became conscious of the fact that I must return to the world and play out my allotted role. This really pissed me off. As I crawled up the beach, I really didn't want to be here and in many ways have just been waiting for this lot to finish.

12. Theoretical implications: a) Absolute Infinity is a fact; George Cantors set theory provides sound theoretical evidence of the mathematical context of infinity. (We do not create infinity it is literally thrust upon us and is therefore absolutely necessary.) Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation of particle wave duality; Max Tegmark's theoretical application to infinite universes. See also John Barrow 'Pi in the Sky' and Rudy Rucker's 'Infinity and Mind'. Evolution is asymmetrical, that is the billion to one symmetry violation at the origins (matter/antimatter) of the universe supervenes through complexification and self-organization onto Darwinian selection as a bias for pleasure over pain.

Evolution is not value neutral. Given infinite universes non-denumerable infinity tells us that every moment must exist infinitely for all possible sum over histories (Richard Feynman) for all possible universes. (Will be pushing for space here.) Given infinite universes and infinite sentient civilizations infinite civilizations will survive for vast time scales eventually resolving into Absolute Infinity and Absolute Love. This state of beingness is a permanent aspect of every part of existence.

Science has become shackled to skepticism and the narrow constraints of a very primitive epoch in the scheme of biological and silicon based evolution. Ray Kurweil demonstrates the capacity of potentiation in his demonstration of cosmological, computational and exponential technological growth. We will eventually drop the distinction between artificial and carbon based intelligence for new cohesive constructs far beyond our current capacity to visualize. As cells in our bodies are not conscious of our bodies, our self-conscious minds are not cognizant of the Absolute because we are bound by cognitive duality. Consciousness is dualistic and narrative based whereas awareness is timeless and immediate. Yet for anything to exist, whether subjective or objective, they must inevitably be absolute necessary aspects of a perfect existence. One also has to take into account the profound paradox of time (quantum block time) relativistic twin paradox, matter antimatter time vector reversal etc. we really don't know much.

The axis of existence proceeds from the Pervasive Ground (unified field) through Manifest Material Reality and onto Infinite Potentiality. Existence is an Infinite Web of context and though the local universe has some 10 to the 26 bits of information they overlap and furthermore are connected non-locally. Existence is not constructed of finite locatable things it is a nonlinear process of textural flow and integration. Lot more I could add however gives the gist of what I am on about. Hid in a corner all these years however when saw this site decided to have a stab at explaining my NDE. I have written extensively but not published. Who, after all is interested in radical and revisionary ideas. After all they forced Thomas Kuhn into a corner. Our current epoch is incommensurable with a civilization two hundred two thousand, two million or a billion years older. Plenty more where this came from. It's time to wake up and go beyond the magic and mythology of religion and the primitive egocentrism of science.

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@Yeah Yeah I don't know if other people had this experience as a child but I remember being very young and wondering why I was me and not others. Why I had a seperate body. I feel you on the relationships I am very lucky because I have had relationships where I could actually feel myself merging with them. The love is insane and almost transcendental. I have always been able to get really close with people to where it seemed as if we were actually one.  Its beautiful and painful but freaking amazing.

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