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GreenWoods

Cessation doesn't exist

85 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

But see, you're wrong here.  This is exactly what happens during a cessation; all consciousness "blinks out" and returns.  A frame is missing.  This can be directly verified over and over and over until you are convinced.  The "ultimate" is beyond even consciousness.  

How do you know that when consciousness blinks out, it actually is out for some moments? Rather than just teleporting a few moments into the future? Because that's what's happening IMO. Consciousness doesn't actually blink out. Similar to sleep, you wake up the second you fall asleep, without a gap inbetween.

The only way to prove that the gap of cessation exists, would be to experience it, but then it isn't non-existence/unconsciousness anymore.

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

.  To say "God imagines" is to implicitly impute a SELF to God; what you are really doing is a very subtle projection of YOUR ego.  This is fundamentally my problem with Leo's psychedelic insights--they do not acknowledge that this is happening, and thus miss the KEY: there is no ground, and there is no self, not even for "God".  The ultimate is a mystery.  But when you truly have no self, you don't care, because you're IT.

Yes, God doesn't really have a self. It's just that God is God.

Which is similar to what you are saying: "you're IT".

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

.  The self-sense hides in reifications of body-sense, consciousness, in "field of awareness", in models of reality, in being the perceiver of sensations, in the perception of time and space and distance, and even in the perception of a present moment.  ALL of these are empty.  

Yes. And emptiness IS, Emptiness exists.

If it didn't, you wouldn't know about it, about the proposed beyond consciousness. 

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@Flyboy I think, if I had the exact same 'experience' you are talking about, I would still call it Consciousness/Existence, while you wouldn't. 

 

Btw what is your recommendation for how to have a cessation? 

Stop all clinging? I can't imagine that works. Maybe for extremely talented people. 

Doing Jhanas?

Edited by GreenWoods

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12 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

@Flyboy I think, if I had the exact same 'experience' you are talking about, I would still call it Consciousness/Existence, while you wouldn't. 

 

Btw what is your recommendation for how to have a cessation? 

Stop all clinging? I can't imagine that works. Maybe for extremely talented people. 

Doing Jhanas?

Yeah, you need to master of the jhanas, I think cessation is considered the last jhana.

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I suspect that cessation is the same thing that happens after we die: no consciusness, nothing; "infinite dark"

Edited by RedLine

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@GreenWoods

I haven't reached my first cessation yet in my own journey.  It's tough to talk about this stuff without a common vocabulary, so I'll default to Theravada Buddhism (though I do not subscribe to any one path or method).  But in those terms, a cessation occurs at the end of one full "cycle" of insight.  A cycle of insight is about observing impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and no-self in all of your 6 sense gates with great diligence.  As this process progresses, you'll likely progress through a typical sequence of intense mystical stuff, a dark night of the soul, and then into a balanced state of equanimity. 

At the very end of equanimity, when things have refined enough, there will come a point when you experience a moment of perfect perception with zero resistance/clinging.  This moment will then lead to the collapse and rebooting of reality--a cessation.  This is the official end of a "cycle".  After the first cessation, you should be able to access the entire cycle in a very short period of time and have another cessation; these mini-cycles are essentially refinements of the insight you gained on the macro-cycle, and will stop when you enter into another macro-cycle.  

So short answer, high concentration is NOT needed for your first cessation, just maturity of sensory insight.  For later macro-cycles, high concentration will become necessary to see enough subtlety to progress (particularly the 3rd and 4th path), and also helps integrate insight and minimize dark nights.  All of this is more about dedication than talent, so don't use that as an excuse.  For context though, I think most people need to be on retreat to go deep enough to reach their first cessation, and even then, you really need to hit the ground running with competence and diligence.  @Consilience can probably give you better information on this, as he is much farther along than I am.  Also, read MCTB :)

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1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

 Btw what is your recommendation for how to have a cessation? 

Stop all clinging? I can't imagine that works. Maybe for extremely talented people. 

Doing Jhanas?

Meditation. It is the result of bringing all mental activity to rest over and over. No more activity, no more illusory finite mind, only screen. Doesn’t occur the first day or year of course, but truly, it couldn’t be more simple. This was years prior to psychedelics as well, and before any conversation or idea of awakening or enlightenment, just for the point of reference. Gotta drop all projections like talented people. That’s really ego justification of not meditating. All that amounts to is more thought activity to bring to rest. Also, just for point of reference for you, I’ve had this evaluated more than once with an electrode skull cap and watched it on a screen. People find it very difficult to believe / understand. Try to consider, every possible ‘way’, every possible explanation, ALL of that has absolutely nothing to do with cessation. It’s ALL just appearance without exception, and it all amounts only to more “thought activity”. 


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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10 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

@BipolarGrowth What is your definition of cessation?

And what are you refering to with "deeper things than cessation"?

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/the-cessation-of-perception-and-feeling-nirodha-samapatti/
 

There are several different things I’ve had awakenings into which subjectively feel to be far more greater shifts than cessation. Subjective value scales are all we really judge cessation by anyway. That goes for any awakening. None of them have been discussed anywhere I’ve seen. I don’t really feel like posting a hasty representation of any of these awakenings because it wouldn’t do justice to the experience and divinity within. I have writings for one which are mostly complete which I could try to finish if you want. 


I’ve had ~500 transformative spiritual experiences in the past 10 months. Here’s where I’m at now.
https://youtu.be/Xr2chjakYMU

“Bring your Authentic Light into the world so that others may feel confident enough to do the same.” -Māhā Ānanda aka Brandon Rohe

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6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

How do you know that when consciousness blinks out, it actually is out for some moments? Rather than just teleporting a few moments into the future? Because that's what's happening IMO. Consciousness doesn't actually blink out. Similar to sleep, you wake up the second you fall asleep, without a gap inbetween.

The only way to prove that the gap of cessation exists, would be to experience it, but then it isn't non-existence/unconsciousness anymore.

Yes, God doesn't really have a self. It's just that God is God.

Which is similar to what you are saying: "you're IT".

Yes. And emptiness IS, Emptiness exists.

If it didn't, you wouldn't know about it, about the proposed beyond consciousness. 

Can you know the difference between an electronic device that is asleep and one that has no power? That’s how I see the difference. There is an experience of cessation because your in consciousness identity has experience wrapping around it which inform you what it was like, and the Buddha said it was the highest temporary state according to many interpretations. It is also the clearest insight into what is beyond temporary states that you can experience in the eyes of many. I still say that what I’m having is unlike any other person’s life. No one else is honestly first-person to me. I have absolutely no ground to go on that there’s anything but my present moment experience. And that’s a scary thing because my present moment experience might as well be thought of as better than any God mode Buddha you can imagine. If that’s what’s running shit, I’m scared. It’s ruthlessly beautiful. 
 

Who knows if you live or stop existing forever. What’s the difference between nibbana for 1 second and being “in” it forever? I realized there was no time there immediately when I came back. It’s pretty raw to “experience” true gaps like you’re being sucked into alternate dimensions on fucking Star Trek a few times while you’re driving. It’s an epistemic nightmare. 
 

No one should be acting too much like we actually understand this shit. If it’s not the deepest thing out there, then why did so many skilled Buddhists who could experience samadhi in meditation quite quickly think this was the highest there was? 


I’ve had ~500 transformative spiritual experiences in the past 10 months. Here’s where I’m at now.
https://youtu.be/Xr2chjakYMU

“Bring your Authentic Light into the world so that others may feel confident enough to do the same.” -Māhā Ānanda aka Brandon Rohe

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11 hours ago, Flyboy said:

@Consilience can probably give you better information on this, as he is much farther along than I am.  Also, read MCTB :)

Appreciate the call out but you’re rocking this thread man. 

Maybe the only thing Id add is the value of cessation is worthless at the point of cessation, so hopefully people are not romanticizing it because that would ultimately get in the way haha. Ive only reached 8th jhana so no full blown cessation but from what the 8th is like, good fucking god it’s like coming into direct contact with paradox. Extremely, extremely, extremely subtle. I don’t think people on this forum appreciate the subtly, precision, and clarity required by the mind to reach deep states of insight or concentration, nor do they understand why such qualities of mind are so (ironically) worthwhile to cultivate. Real mindfulness is more powerful than psychedelics, in my view. Then again eventually it all goes full circle and we can see the perfection of this moment as it is, with as little or as great a level of mindfulness… :)

Edited by Consilience

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7 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Appreciate the call out but you’re rocking this thread man. 

Maybe the only thing Id add is the value of cessation is worthless at the point of cessation, so hopefully people are not romanticizing it because that would ultimately get in the way haha. Ive only reached 8th jhana so no full blown cessation but from what the 8th is like, good fucking god it’s like coming into direct contact with paradox. Extremely, extremely, extremely subtle. I don’t think people on this forum appreciate the subtly, precision, and clarity required by the mind to reach deep states of insight or concentration, nor do they understand why such qualities of mind are so (ironically) worthwhile to cultivate. Real mindfulness is more powerful than psychedelics, in my view. Then again eventually it all goes full circle and we can see the perfection of this moment as it is, with as little or as great a level of mindfulness… :)

Agreed. I have a good friend who's experienced countless cessations (he's put in well over 10,000 hours of meditation). In his words, "There is no choice or grand achievement in cessation. There is only 'what is.' If cessation comes, it comes. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Cessation is merely showing the causal chains of clinging and becoming."

In other words, there is nobody at the driver's seat who is "making" a cessation happen. Cessation occurs when the conditions are right, just as everything else does. It's like a front-row seat to observing the entire process of dependent origination that the Buddha emphasized so much. 

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23 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Where does Consciousness arise from, according to him?

It's completely dependent on the senses, a mental construct, a composite of physical and mental phenomena


"Buddhism is for losers and those who will die one day."

                                                                                            -- Kenneth Folk

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On 10/13/2021 at 9:15 PM, Flyboy said:

So short answer, high concentration is NOT needed for your first cessation, just maturity of sensory insight.  :)

@Flyboy Interesting, didn't expect that. 

 

On 10/13/2021 at 9:41 PM, Nahm said:

. Also, just for point of reference for you, I’ve had this evaluated more than once with an electrode skull cap and watched it on a screen. 

@Nahm No mind or cessation?

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@BipolarGrowth

23 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

. I don’t really feel like posting a hasty representation of any of these awakenings because it wouldn’t do justice to the experience and divinity within. I have writings for one which are mostly complete which I could try to finish if you want. 

No hurry, if you ever post them, and remember, you can post a link to them here in this thread:)

22 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

. There is an experience of cessation because your in consciousness identity has experience wrapping around it which inform you what it was like.

...

. It’s pretty raw to “experience” true gaps

So it is kind of an experience? With consciousness? 

If not then how do you guys know there is something? It would be literally like teleporting into the future, with nothing in between.

The only thing you can do is to afterwards imagine the gap was real.

22 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

No one should be acting too much like we actually understand this shit. If it’s not the deepest thing out there, then why did so many skilled Buddhists who could experience samadhi in meditation quite quickly think this was the highest there was? 

Maybe those Buddhists haven't had a deep God awakening. 

 

In the text you linked, the guy writes:

"I have not yet spoken with anyone who had attained it who didn’t consider it the absolute King Daddy of meditation attainments other than arahantship, as the depth of its afterglow never fails to impress and amaze"

That doesn't sound impressive at all. God Consciousness is sooooooo beyond any meditation attainment or afterflow.

God Consciousness beats everything imo. And if there is doubt about that, then it isn't FULL God Consciousness imo.

 

 

@BipolarGrowth Do you consider cessation more significant and ultimate than God Consciousness?

Edited by GreenWoods

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10 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

It's completely dependent on the senses, a mental construct, a composite of physical and mental phenomena

So what is there when there are no senses, no consciousness?

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On 13/10/2021 at 7:34 PM, BipolarGrowth said:

It doesn’t exist in any typical way you think of things. That’s why it’s important. Existence and consciousness are what you’re used to having, but it isn’t everything. Now there are deeper things than cessation, but I wouldn’t count on anyone who doesn’t speak highly of cessation to get me to those places. 

@BipolarGrowth What are examples of things that are deeper than cessation?

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14 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@BipolarGrowth What are examples of things that are deeper than cessation?

The highest examples I’ve seen had to do with peak Divinity as Self in 1st person and the angelic origins/interactions within all things. This has taken me a few weeks to come back from. Awakenings this deep can be really dangerous for mental health. It’s just a peak experience you might say, but cessation is as far as how we judge it against other experiences in memory too. It’s all up to our arbitrary interpretations. It just felt subjectively much deeper to me than cessation, and my cessation experiences were much deeper than most people describe theirs to be. 


I’ve had ~500 transformative spiritual experiences in the past 10 months. Here’s where I’m at now.
https://youtu.be/Xr2chjakYMU

“Bring your Authentic Light into the world so that others may feel confident enough to do the same.” -Māhā Ānanda aka Brandon Rohe

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35 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

The highest examples I’ve seen had to do with peak Divinity as Self in 1st person 

That sounds a lot more similar to God Consciousness than to cessation. 

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