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GreenWoods

Cessation doesn't exist

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It doesn’t exist in any typical way you think of things. That’s why it’s important. Existence and consciousness are what you’re used to having, but it isn’t everything. Now there are deeper things than cessation, but I wouldn’t count on anyone who doesn’t speak highly of cessation to get me to those places. 


Spiritual Practice Vlog #2 — Breath Meditation ~45 min. (Anapanasati) & Fire Kasina ~50 min.
https://youtu.be/gNUwx8dLI_k If you’re a bipolar spiritual seeker at your wit’s end, feel free to send me a PM. 

If you want to insult me, don’t call me a monkey. That’s a rather demanding compliment. 

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47 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

states

Cessation of nonsense is real! 

xD

No mind can’t be thought! State chasing is really just rumination. “It” only “happens” in the finite mind. 

When it’s believed there are states and not cessation…
fI0kT.gif

(Buddha Hand)


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"Buddhism is for losers and those who will die one day."

                                                                                            -- Kenneth Folk

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@GreenWoods

I gotta ask man, are you for real on where you’re coming from on this thread or is this more of a thought experiment type thread, feeling or thinking something through type of thing? I don’t mean that in any personal or accusatory way. 


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NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

It doesn’t exist in any typical way you think of things. That’s why it’s important. Existence and consciousness are what you’re used to having, but it isn’t everything. Now there are deeper things than cessation, but I wouldn’t count on anyone who doesn’t speak highly of cessation to get me to those places. 

@BipolarGrowth What is your definition of cessation?

And what are you refering to with "deeper things than cessation"?

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1 hour ago, Nahm said:

No mind can’t be thought! State chasing is really just rumination. “It” only “happens” in the finite mind. 

Reality is Consciousness. Everything is a state of Consciousness, God's state of Consciousness.

Thoughts appear, imagined by God. 

I'm not sure whether I understand what you want to say.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@GreenWoods

I gotta ask man, are you for real on where you’re coming from on this thread or is this more of a thought experiment type thread, feeling or thinking something through type of thing? I don’t mean that in any personal or accusatory way. 

For real.

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@GreenWoods

And when you are saying there is no cessation, you mean in the classic sense of from suffering? As in, there just is suffering and there is no truth to the cessation of it?


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@GreenWoods You're really good at parroting Leo's party line.

I think you should question:

 - Does imagination really "exist"?  Is this not another concept WITHIN finite mind that you are reifying and using to justify a belief?  This is structurally no different than any religious dogma.

 - You are reifying the idea of "states of consciousness", as if that model is synonymous with something "real."  It is not.  In fact, this entire way of thinking about consciousness is a distortion created by the blindspot of only using psychedelics to construct a picture of reality.

 - Similarily, you are also reifying consciousness itself.  Are you careful with your idea and definition of consciousness?  If you define it as the intrinsic "knowing" of each sensation in the NOW, you will find that consciousness itself is dependent on phenomena (including all psychedelic trips).  This dependency ultimately reveals that even consciousness is empty and without inherent existence (at least in our direct experience).  This is one of the functions of cessation--to reveal the emptiness and co-dependence of consciousness itself.  If you are just reifying consciousness as some imaginary "spirit substance", well, again you're just in religious belief territory and not in line with direct experience.

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7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@GreenWoods

And when you are saying there is no cessation, you mean in the classic sense of from suffering? As in, there just is suffering and there is no truth to the cessation of it?

@Nahm What is your definition of cessation? there are so many definitions.

Of course there can be cessation of suffering.

I thought cessation is non-existence/unconsciousness. 

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12 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@GreenWoods You're really good at parroting Leo's party line.

I think you should question:

 - Does imagination really "exist"?  Is this not another concept WITHIN finite mind that you are reifying and using to justify a belief?  This is structurally no different than any religious dogma.

 - You are reifying the idea of "states of consciousness", as if that model is synonymous with something "real."  It is not.  In fact, this entire way of thinking about consciousness is a distortion created by the blindspot of only using psychedelics to construct a picture of reality.

 - Similarily, you are also reifying consciousness itself.  Are you careful with your idea and definition of consciousness?  If you define it as the intrinsic "knowing" of each sensation in the NOW, you will find that consciousness itself is dependent on phenomena (including all psychedelic trips).  This dependency ultimately reveals that even consciousness is empty and without inherent existence (at least in our direct experience).  This is one of the functions of cessation--to reveal the emptiness and co-dependence of consciousness itself.  If you are just reifying consciousness as some imaginary "spirit substance", well, again you're just in religious belief territory and not in line with direct experience.

I mean, if we are being "real" here, Leo's take on consciousness is already very much religious in nature (even if it presents itself as a meta-religious understanding). God is still reified to be the ultimate ground of reality and "true self," albeit in a more impersonal dressing. There is subtle dogma hidden within the "dogma-less" approach. 

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8 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

 - Does imagination really "exist"?  Is this not another concept WITHIN finite mind that you are reifying and using to justify a belief?  This is structurally no different than any religious dogma.

@Flyboy With imagination I mean whatever is happening. Like a chair, or sounds or thoughts. And yes they exist.

That's the opposite of belief.

12 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

 - You are reifying the idea of "states of consciousness", as if that model is synonymous with something "real."  It is not.  In fact, this entire way of thinking about consciousness is a distortion created by the blindspot of only using psychedelics to construct a picture of reality.

Consciousness is Reality/Existence. God is Consciousness. Everything is God, but God can be conscious of Itself to different degrees. That's what I mean with states of consciousness.

I've taken psychedelics 2 times, 2 years ago. Everything I write comes from sober awakenings.

18 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

 - Similarily, you are also reifying consciousness itself.  Are you careful with your idea and definition of consciousness?  If you define it as the intrinsic "knowing" of each sensation in the NOW, you will find that consciousness itself is dependent on phenomena (including all psychedelic trips).  This dependency ultimately reveals that even consciousness is empty and without inherent existence (at least in our direct experience).  This is one of the functions of cessation--to reveal the emptiness and co-dependence of consciousness itself.  If you are just reifying consciousness as some imaginary "spirit substance", well, again you're just in religious belief territory and not in line with direct experience.

Consciousness is the NOW, Consciousness is existence. Consciousness is not an imaginary spirit substance, Consciousness is that which is.

20 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

).  This dependency ultimately reveals that even consciousness is empty and without inherent existence (at least in our direct experience).  

What do you mean with that?

Sure, in its purest form Consciousness is empty, without any sensations and perceptions. But it still exists. 

Actually, all perceptions are emptiness. 

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9 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

@Nahm What is your definition of cessation? there are so many definitions.

Good question. Four noble truths. The end of desire, ambition, greed, monkey mind ways, etc. 

9 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Of course there can be cessation of suffering.

?

9 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

I thought cessation is non-existence/unconsciousness. 

Well by definition there isn’t a non-existence.


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1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Good question. Four noble truths. The end of desire, ambition, greed, monkey mind ways, etc. 

Sure that kind of cessation is very possible.

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Well by definition there isn’t a non-existence.

Yes kinda obvious right. And yet some people talk about beyond existence and beyond consciousness. 

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@GreenWoods Please explain to me how consciousness "exists" if there is nothing to be conscious OF (not even time, space, or emptiness)?  I'm pointing to a very advanced truth about consciousness--it isn't separate from the things it knows.  It literally "is" the things it knows, and without those things, it does NOT exist.  This is precisely what happens during cessation, and why cessation is a powerful tool for insight.

Without this insight, you will continue to reify the field of consciousness itself (as if it were a cup that holds reality) and hold it as a ground to stand on, but this is an incomplete / halfway understanding.

The other key point here is that cessation arises as clinging decreases to absolute zero.  The desire to exist is the most fundamental level of clinging, and if you can surrender enough to this primordial "helplessness", you see that existence itself fades to nonexistence.

Edited by Flyboy

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9 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@GreenWoods Please explain to me how consciousness "exists" if there is nothing to be conscious OF (not even time, space, or emptiness)?  I'm pointing to a very advanced truth about consciousness--it isn't separate from the things it knows.  It literally "is" the things it knows, and without those things, it does NOT exist.  This is precisely what happens during cessation, and why cessation is a powerful tool for insight.

Consciousness can shapeshift into anything, that way it becomes a chair or a bird.

And Consciousness can also be conscious of Itself. 

A scenario where there is litterally nothing to be conscious of, not even Nothingness, is not possible. Because Reality is Consciousness, and that scenario would be unconsciousness.

Half a year ago I wasn't sure about that, I thought theoretically something like unconsciousness could exist. I just don't know. 

But when you have a deep enough awakening it becomes obvious. Though I don't know how to explain. 

9 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

The other key point here is that cessation arises as clinging decreases to absolute zero.  The desire to exist is the most fundamental level of clinging, and if you can surrender enough to this primordial "helplessness", you see that existence itself fades to nonexistence.

Maybe we have different definitions of existence. When there is cero sense of self, that's still existence (the way I see it), Consciousness still exists. 

 

The sense I get is that some people kinda view things from the human or ego perspective. When it is realized that there is no self, then that is complete game over, liberation, the end. 

But other people view it from God's perspective. The sense of a seperate self is just an imagination, among million other imaginations. Whether there is an ego, human and mind or not doesn't much matter. The relevant thing is God.

It's like some people give too much importance to this seperate self stuff, as if that's what everything is about, and if it is gone, game over, the end. but that was just a tiny imagination within God's mind. And the real deal is God.

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43 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Yes kinda obvious right. And yet some people talk about beyond existence and beyond consciousness. 

Weeelllll, kinda yes and no. xD


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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26 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

A scenario where there is litterally nothing to be conscious of, not even Nothingness, is not possible. Because Reality is Consciousness, and that scenario would be unconsciousness.

Half a year ago I wasn't sure about that, I thought theoretically something like unconsciousness could exist. I just don't know. 

But see, you're wrong here.  This is exactly what happens during a cessation; all consciousness "blinks out" and returns.  A frame is missing.  This can be directly verified over and over and over until you are convinced.  The "ultimate" is beyond even consciousness.  You cannot stand on a ground like consciousness or God.  To say "God imagines" is to implicitly impute a SELF to God; what you are really doing is a very subtle projection of YOUR ego.  This is fundamentally my problem with Leo's psychedelic insights--they do not acknowledge that this is happening, and thus miss the KEY: there is no ground, and there is no self, not even for "God".  The ultimate is a mystery.  But when you truly have no self, you don't care, because you're IT.

The levels of self I'm talking about are much more subtle and foundational than the macro egoic levels you (and Leo) are talking about.  The self-sense hides in reifications of body-sense, consciousness, in "field of awareness", in models of reality, in being the perceiver of sensations, in the perception of time and space and distance, and even in the perception of a present moment.  ALL of these are empty.  This is wild and crazy stuff.  Be careful about using logic to argue about this, because at this level logic fails.  The heart of this is Not Knowing, total surrender, total helplessness.

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4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

But see, you're wrong here.  This is exactly what happens during a cessation; all consciousness "blinks out" and returns.  A frame is missing.  This can be directly verified over and over and over until you are convinced.  The "ultimate" is beyond even consciousness.  You cannot stand on a ground like consciousness or God.  To say "God imagines" is to implicitly impute a SELF to God; what you are really doing is a very subtle projection of YOUR ego.  This is fundamentally my problem with Leo's psychedelic insights--they do not acknowledge that this is happening, and thus miss the KEY: there is no ground, and there is no self, not even for "God".  The ultimate is a mystery.  But when you truly have no self, you don't care, because you're IT.

The levels of self I'm talking about are much more subtle and foundational than the macro egoic levels you (and Leo) are talking about.  The self-sense hides in reifications of body-sense, consciousness, in "field of awareness", in models of reality, in being the perceiver of sensations, in the perception of time and space and distance, and even in the perception of a present moment.  ALL of these are empty.  This is wild and crazy stuff.  Be careful about using logic to argue about this, because at this level logic fails.  The heart of this is Not Knowing, total surrender, total helplessness.

Love this post. 

This is directly what Dzogchen and Zen are pointing at. 

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