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GreenWoods

Cessation doesn't exist

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Cessation is your imagination. Non-existence and unconsciousness doesn't exist.

You have no proof of cessation, you never experienced cessation.

If you think you had a cessation and that it was like skipping a few moments, like teleporting a few moments into the future, then that was literally what happened. The inbetween doesn't exist. If you think there was something, then it is something/existence/consciousness. 

You can't experience non-existence, and if you could, it would be existence.

 

It is certainly possible to have what seems like a cessation, and after the cessation your state of consciousness might be different. But that doesn't say anthying. Even if you have a radically different brain chemistry and are fully enlightened after a cessation, doesn't mean that cessation exists. 

In the same way as you gaining weight from eating food doesn't mean that the food caused that. No causation. God just imagined you gaining weight, it had nothing to do with the food.

God is really good in creating illusions. God even manages to sell you the idea that unconsciousness/cessation/nonexistence exists, by imagining benefits from skipping moments (cessation), so the mind thinks, that there must have been something during that cessation, because what else would be responsible for the benefits that occur after cessation, lol.

Edited by GreenWoods

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Cessation is not an ultimate experience, but rather direct evidence of the nature of our experience.  Here's how it works:

The degree to which you cling / grasp / have aversion to reality is actually proportional to the level of fabrication you are creating from the perception of your senses.  Clinging, fabrication, "self", and suffering all dependently arise together.  How do we know this?  Well, it can be seen directly.  As meditative clarity and concentration reach sufficient levels, eventually a point is reached where a complete surrender to reality happens.  As clinging drops to zero, reality fades.  This is what a cessation "is".  It does not make you enlightened, nor is it "God".  Rather, it is a very clear way to see the direct correlation between clinging and the very existence of perception.  So, since objects of perception and consciousness are also dependent (there can be no knowing with a known), even consciousness is empty.  There is no ground, not even God.  Which makes sense if you let your attachment to it go... an infinite "being" isn't a being at all--it just is.  Saying "God is imagining everything" is actually very dualistic, imputing a Self to God.  At the highest levels you won't find such a thing.

The difference between cessation and enlightenment is often misunderstood, especially by Leo.  Cessation is a tool which helps deepen insight, in the same way that a derivative helps you solve a math equation.  Full enlightenment is when the path of insight reaches rock bottom, when the knot of perception is finally unraveled, and reality is actually perceived unfiltered, the way it is.

Edited by Flyboy

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Just now, Flyboy said:

Well, first, I'd like to congratulate you on your ability to parrot Leo's mind virus.  Well done, Slim Shady.

Haha thanks xD

But what I talk about has nothing to do with Leo. Leo has 0 authority for me. 

If every spiritual person on earth (including Leo) and in history said something different about awakening than me, it would make 0 difference for me. 

Direct Consciousness is all that counts.

But it is true that Leo's teachings were very important pointers. Without them, I might not have found out all that stuff.

8 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

.  As clinging drops to zero, reality fades.  This is what a cessation "is".  It does not make you enlightened, nor is it "God".  Rather, it is a very clear way to see the direct correlation between clinging and the very existence of perception.  So, since objects of perception and consciousness are also dependent (there can be no knowing with a known), even consciousness is empty. 

So is there still consciousness during a cessation or not?

You can certainly experience Nothingness without any perceptions like your room, body sensations or thoughts. But there is still consciousness.

12 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

.  There is no ground, not even God.  Which makes sense if you let your attachment to it go...

This moment right now is all that exists. All of God shapeshifted into this bubble right now. So completely that in a sense there is nothing left of God, God died by becoming this moment.

In that sense there actually is no ground. Because the Ground, or God, fully becomes the bubble, and nothing of that Ground is left. Every bubble is different so there is no commonality, no Ground.

But at the same time, all of that is still God, the Ground. Not-God is still God, because God is everything.

So it's a paradox. 

20 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

.  Saying "God is imagining everything" is actually very dualistic,

Yes. It is dualistic. Actually God=Imagination.

But saying that God imagines stuff can also be a useful pointer, even though it's not the most accurate. 

22 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

, imputing a Self to God. 

God is God.

22 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

.  Full enlightenment is when the path of insight reaches rock bottom, when the knot of perception is finally unraveled, and reality is actually perceived unfiltered, the way it is.

There is no rock bottom.

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1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

Cessation is not an ultimate experience, but rather direct evidence of the nature of our experience.  Here's how it works:

The degree to which you cling / grasp / have aversion to reality is actually proportional to the level of fabrication you are creating from the perception of your senses.  Clinging, fabrication, "self", and suffering all dependently arise together.  How do we know this?  Well, it can be seen directly.  As meditative clarity and concentration reach sufficient levels, eventually a point is reached where a complete surrender to reality happens.  As clinging drops to zero, reality fades.  This is what a cessation "is".  It does not make you enlightened, nor is it "God".  Rather, it is a very clear way to see the direct correlation between clinging and the very existence of perception.  So, since objects of perception and consciousness are also dependent (there can be no knowing with a known), even consciousness is empty.  There is no ground, not even God.  Which makes sense if you let your attachment to it go... an infinite "being" isn't a being at all--it just is.  Saying "God is imagining everything" is actually very dualistic, imputing a Self to God.  At the highest levels you won't find such a thing.

The difference between cessation and enlightenment is often misunderstood, especially by Leo.  Cessation is a tool which helps deepen insight, in the same way that a derivative helps you solve a math equation.  Full enlightenment is when the path of insight reaches rock bottom, when the knot of perception is finally unraveled, and reality is actually perceived unfiltered, the way it is.

This is a great explanation! 

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Posted (edited)

Every now and then I see people writing about non-existence.

But I haven't seen a solid argument for it yet.

But I'm very curious, what are the arguments for non-existence or cessation or unconsciousness?

Edited by GreenWoods

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2 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Every now and then I see people writing about non-existence.

But I haven't seen a solid argument for it yet.

But I'm very curious, what are the arguments for non-existence or cessation or unconsciousness?

Some people would say that they didn't exist from the Big Bang until they were born. Here on this forum we know that's not the case but from the materialistic perspective that seems like a solid argument. 

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The conceptual mind cannot comprehend cessation. Just because you haven't had this experience doesn't mean it isn't possible to experience. And ya, on paper you make sense. But this shit doesn't make sense to the conceptual mind. Open to the possibility and you might experience it one day. Mental masturbation will get us nowhere.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, noticeom said:

The conceptual mind cannot comprehend cessation. Just because you haven't had this experience doesn't mean it isn't possible to experience. And ya, on paper you make sense. But this shit doesn't make sense to the conceptual mind. Open to the possibility and you might experience it one day. Mental masturbation will get us nowhere.

Sometimes after live SAT transmissions it feels like I've been neither conscious nor unconscious. And it's different than that semi consciousness between wakefulness and sleep.

Is that similar to cessation? Or the right direction?

I'm not even entirely sure what cessation is intellectually as I couldn't find a good explanation online.

And some people describe cessation as there still being consciousness, just without objects and no self. Such an experience is definitely possible. 

For example Culadasa wrote:

"The only information that tuned in sub-minds receive during this event is the fact of a total absence" basically awareness of absence, right?

"if the intention was to be metacognitively aware of the state and activities of the mind, we would remember having been fully conscious, but not conscious of anything. We would recall having a pure consciousness experience (PCE), or an experience of consciousness without an object (CWO)."

And some reddid posts:

"My first cessation felt a bit like reality had skipped a beat and yet -- as I interpreted the experience after the fact -- it still felt like I was there for the "skip" part. So, everything went away, but I remained"

"Like falling in a hole. There is still a sense of awareness; just no object for awareness to cling to."

"Pure luminosity and tranquility. No thoughts, No sense of self, No sense of time. The only memory I have is of pure luminous internal light and tranquil peace"

"Then there was a blank space."  basically awareness of a blank space, right?

 

 

 

About my experience which feels like I've been neither conscious nor unconscious, I think either

  • there was still a bit consciousness there. That's how it could be experienced. 
  • or I 'lost consciousness' which basically means I teleported some minutes into the future and then had a fake memory.

Either way, it wasn't non-existence. 

Edited by GreenWoods

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5 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Every now and then I see people writing about non-existence.

But I haven't seen a solid argument for it yet.

Life does not and cannot ever know death.

You cannot 'experience' cessation, because it is the exact and complete opposite of experience.

You cannot be conscious of the unconscious.

That's very silly.

So in that sense, you are very right. There is no cessation. There is no unconsciousness.

And that is, 'paradoxically', how it is.

It exist in the realm of not - if you will.

 

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1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

Life does not and cannot ever know death.

You cannot 'experience' cessation, because it is the exact and complete opposite of experience.

You cannot be conscious of the unconscious.

From my direct experience, Reality = Consciousness.

So it's not just that unconsciousness can't be experienced, but that it doesn't exist at all. It only exists as an idea.

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

It exist in the realm of not - if you will.

What is the realm of notxD

Can't we just say it doesn't exist at all?xD

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@GreenWoods Consciousness is duality.

You cannot know or understand the not.

You cannot know the unknown.

But you can be. And you can be not.

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On 9/28/2021 at 0:27 PM, GreenWoods said:

The inbetween doesn't exist.

Mu-

 For here there is nothing to talk about.

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On 10/4/2021 at 2:08 PM, GreenWoods said:

Is that similar to cessation? Or the right direction?

So "cessation" is much deeper and more powerful than this. Look into the Divine Ground of Being. It's very rare to find teachings on this. I would go on retreat with Adyashanti and he's only talked about it once. He mentioned it creates a psychological death and you can't come out of it the same person. So it's no small thing to experience. I believe I experienced this once during sleep paralysis. I genuinely thought I was going to die, and I could't do anything about it. Was forced to fully let go and accept it and it felt like I fell into a hole of nothing. like this quote you shared.

On 10/4/2021 at 2:08 PM, GreenWoods said:

"Like falling in a hole. There is still a sense of awareness; just no object for awareness to cling to."

Although my personal experience with it was very unconscious, so it wasn't an awakening or anything. Just a rush. But in order to go there you have to fully let go of everything and embrace death.

Adyashanti said this is the source of consciousness. Ramana Maharshi says it's the Self. So I'm thinking, this void is what's doing the watching, consciousness is the watchingness, and form of any kind is what is being watched. Which I believe is what was being expressed as the Holy Trinity in the bible. And of course form and consciousness are one, so i'm sure it's all connected in the end.

I was reading through a reddit about salvia trip reports and came across this beautiful description:

"Salvia blew me out of this world to a place where there was no me, not even a sensation of I, but a blurred eternal void that came with it a sense of claustrophobia and stuckness. No compassion or warm fuzzies there, just a blank eternal void. "I", or the "unself who was seeing" had existed there always, there was no beginning or end to this place of selflessness."

Anyway, I'm working on diving into this void through meditation. I've had a few awakenings in the past, and there is still that instinct that there is something deeper that I'm missing. So I'm just following that impulse. 

I also have a really helpful guided meditation from Adyashanti where he helps you get in touch with this specific domain of nothing. I don't know if you can DM here, but if you can message me and I can send it to you.

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On 9/28/2021 at 0:59 PM, Flyboy said:

As clinging drops to zero, reality fades

Simple as that.

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On 9/28/2021 at 0:27 PM, GreenWoods said:

Cessation is your imagination.

Truth!

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imagine that you exist, and at a given moment, you cease to exist. cessation cannot be infinite, since if it were, you would never have existed. so the moment in which you existed, or exist, is infinite, since it is delimited by non-existence ... that does not exist.

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@GreenWoods Probably just a definition thing:

There's "nothingness", which means the perception of reality not having a substance and there bot being a self.

There's cessation, that's defined by non-experience, a jump in time. You (or) The universe just restarts itself, and there's no time.

By your definition deep sleep or anesthesia don't exist either because it would just be a jump in time.

Well the jump in time exists, and cessation is that.

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@GreenWoods Probably just a definition thing:

There's "nothingness", which means the perception of reality not having a substance and there bot being a self.

There's cessation, that's defined by non-experience, a jump in time. You (or) The universe just restarts itself, and there's no time.

By your definition deep sleep or anesthesia don't exist either because it would just be a jump in time.

Well the jump in time exists, and cessation is that.

And the apparent significance of the cessation, as Flyboy pointed out, is what appears to happen in the last moment before the cessation, wherein clinging/intention loosens and cessation happens (doesn't happen ;)) immediately as it reaches zero, and no one experiences the cessation, as the intention/need is identical with the experience -- in other words, the need to know/experience something is essentially identical with knowing/experience.

Edited by The0Self

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@noticeom What you are describing sounds like Nothingness without any sensations.

And yes that's more radical than what I described earlier. I think I've been there a few times during sleep too, but only for a few seconds. 

I can't wait to hang out in that state for hours. With sleep yoga I will get there.

3 hours ago, noticeom said:

Anyway, I'm working on diving into this void through meditation.

Do you think it is realistic to get there with normal meditation?

What is your meditation? Adyashanti's guided meditation?

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