zazen

Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

209 posts in this topic

@Emerald Though distorted, I can still somewhat sympathize with them. I was extremely asocial and insecure until my late teens / early twenties. Though I never really held these red pill ideas we keep seeing on the forum. There was still a distortion.

Thankfully that changed by experiencing healthy plutonic relationships with women and I realized all my false ideas on women were self induced due to lack of experience.

Also making sure not to fall into the trap of the "friend zone" do many men harbor hatred for since my only intention was to be friends and no more. Having genuine friends of the opposite sex is invaluable, specially when the self structure is still solidifying.

Edited by Nos7algiK

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6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Preety_India

Yes but most women at my age (22 and younger) are immature, i cannot expect a super wise woman at that age, i have to cater to my demographic. If i was dealing with 30 year old females i would have a much easier time because they are more mature and wise.

 

This has hardly anything to do with age. More to do with emotional maturity from person to person. Find women in your age group who are more emotionally matured if emotionally maturity is what you are looking for.

As regards to women in their 30s,even they can be emotionally immature if that's how they choose to be. 

A choice in a man is not dependent on age but what a woman wants. Even a 40 year old woman might want a macho masculine guy. 

And a 20 year old woman can prefer a guy who is emotionally resonant. 

Look for the right woman who aligns with your emotionality 

If you are looking in the wrong places and expecting women to behave nice in those wrong places, you won't get the outcome you are looking for. 

You're creating a classic paradox and expecting a miracle out of it 

 

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Regarding relationships it is not really that difficult tbh, you can be nice to them and love them once they fall in love with you. The assertivness and ruthlessness is just on the beginning, after you get close you can be nice and shit. Although being too clingy is a huge issue is see guys make and ends up with them getting dumped in a 3 year relationship where they did so much for the girl. Quite sad but understandable.

Again you're looking for women who will dump you 

You're pegging yourself low. 

If I looked for men who would eventually dump me, I am the only one to be blamed 

 

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

For us guys getting the sex is the most difficult thing of the process which is why most guys are so obsessed with it, the intimacy and relationship stuff comes more naturally and is not that important to us.

You're wrong here 

This is because you aren't developed enough. If you develop your inner core, you will begin to crave intimacy and connection just as women do 

To think that a man doesn't crave emotional connection is dumb toxic masculinity. 

Most men simply follow the stereotype created by Toxic Masculinity and never question it. 

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

You mostly see guys complaining about not getting laid, not complaining about their partner not being intimate with them. It is not a coincidence.

Well obviously It's not. When were men told that they can express their emotions freely and openly? Answer is never. It's like a dog endlessly chasing its tail. 

If you were taught to be intimate you would have no problem in feeling and experiencing intimacy with a woman, in turn you would also look for more fulfilling relationships. 

You create a toxic loop and get stuck in it. 

 


I'm a leftist liberal SJW. INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Listen, I am quite familiar with what men face in dating because it isn’t a secret. It’s VERY well complained about… especially on here.

And the number one thing that will help is for a man to dispossess himself of these distorted ideas about women.

It will make the process of meeting women so much less scary once he actually sees the reality and not this alien projection.

Yeah

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5 minutes ago, Nos7algiK said:

@Emerald Though distorted, I can still somewhat sympathize with them. I was extremely asocial and insecure until my late teens / early twenties.

Thankfully that changed by experiencing healthy plutonic relationships with women and I realized all my false ideas on women were self induced due to lack of experience.

Also making sure not to fall into the trap of the "friend zone" do many men harbor hatred for since my only intention was to be friends and no more. Having genuine friends of the opposite sex is invaluable, specially when the self structure is still solidifying.

I can see how someone can end up in that perspective. And I can have some degree of sympathy.

That said, as a woman, it is very frustrating and sometimes traumatic to be on the receiving end of all of it. There’s just literally millions of guys who are all subscribing to these false ideas about womanhood and ending up bitter and misogynistic as a result.

So I’m not very gentle about confronting these guys with their illusions. 

They need to snap the fuck out of it before they end up creating some dystopian handmaiden’s tale of a situation to solve the problems with women that only exist in their own heads.


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2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So I’m not very gentle about confronting these guys with their illusions. 

There is the stigma though. The very hand that is attempting to help them is the very hand they will always see as distorted.

I agree with what you are doing and I respect it as well. But, there are some pretty thick blinders on men who think this way because even when the very thing that they wish to understand better and be with expresses who they are and their needs. That's the moment they decide to reject the advice and pretend like women don't know what they are talking about when they are literally talking about themselves and their personal experiences. 

It's both ludicrous and profound at the same time. A bit scary as well to see where thinking like that could lead someone eventually. Not saying people such as that will eventually hurt someone, but it will defiantly lead to a damn miserable life as a prisoner of their own warped mind.

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32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Because that’s online dating and isn’t reflective of real-world dynamics.

Women are very intuitive and online dating is basically just visual. So, women aren’t getting the full depth and breadth of experience that they need to know if a guy is attractive to them or not.

I second this 

Online dating can be pretty annoying and by design it's extremely superficial. It isn't meant to give you lasting results or any connection that is sustainable. It isn't women. Men have their own thing going on in the dating apps Our superficiality comes from a sense of selectivity on the apps while the superficiality of men often comes with terrible conversations and just wanting to get laid. This doesn't always reflect what real world dynamics are like because the environment irl is different. Like Emerald said, women are less likely to be superficial irl because you get more depth and more information on a person and what they are like. 

Also, with online dating, you're encountering total strangers with little background context or shared experiences/ settings. That can make conversations harder and make ghosting more likely since there isn't that accountability or means of connecting there. 


I'm just here man.....

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@Preety_India Actually personally i care about intimacy and love a lot more than sex. Cuddling and shit to me is crutial and the emotional connection etc. Sex is also important ofc but it is not the end all be all. I was writting about how most guys see it, not how i personally see it. Love and connection are what i seek the most, not basic sex. But i do not expect most guys to think like me.

However to get love and connection you need the girl attracted to you, a thing most guys (including myself) struggle with. Which is why they focus on it a lot. As a female you do that just by existing (your looks) and therefore you focus on stuff like love and intimacy. Us guys do not have such luxury. Maybe top 10 percent super handsome ones can get girls attracted to them just by their looks but most guys cannot. They need to do it with their personality which is why PUA shit exists in the first place.

Edited by Karmadhi

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1 minute ago, Nos7algiK said:

There is the stigma though. The very hand that is attempting to help them is the very hand they will always see as distorted.

I agree with what you are doing and I respect it as well. But, there are some pretty thick blinders on men who think this way because even when the very thing that they wish to understand better and be with expresses who they are and their needs. That's the moment they decide to reject the advice and pretend like women don't know what they are talking about when they are literally talking about themselves and their personal experiences. 

It's both ludicrous and profound at the same time. A bit scary as well to see where thinking like that could lead someone eventually. Not saying people such as that will eventually hurt someone, but it will defiantly lead to a damn miserable life as a prisoner of their own warped mind.

Yeah, that is big problem.


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24 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I second this 

Online dating can be pretty annoying and by design it's extremely superficial. It isn't meant to give you lasting results or any connection that is sustainable. It isn't women. Men have their own thing going on in the dating apps Our superficiality comes from a sense of selectivity on the apps while the superficiality of men often comes with terrible conversations and just wanting to get laid. This doesn't always reflect what real world dynamics are like because the environment irl is different. Like Emerald said, women are less likely to be superficial irl because you get more depth and more information on a person and what they are like. 

Also, with online dating, you're encountering total strangers with little background context or shared experiences/ settings. That can make conversations harder and make ghosting more likely since there isn't that accountability or means of connecting there. 

Yeah… I’m glad to have never had to use one. It feels blah and like it would suck really bad. There’s really nothing quite like in-person, contextual connection.


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14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Preety_India Actually personally i care about intimacy and love a lot more than sex. Cuddling and shit to me is crutial and the emotional connection etc. Sex is also important ofc but it is not the end all be all. I was writting about how most guys see it, not how i personally see it. Love and connection are what i seek the most, not basic sex. But i do not expect most guys to think like me.

Don't care too much about what other guys think. Maybe they are not emotionally developed. Lack of emotional development is a handicap in relationships. 

You don't need to focus on people who never put much effort in developing themselves. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

However to get love and connection you need the girl attracted to you, a thing most guys (including myself) struggle with. Which is why they focus on it a lot.

Again you're trying to attract the wrong kind of girl. Why are you so focused on attracting someone that doesn't match your values? 

Its like me being attracted to abusive assholes and then complaining about them. I have to change my mindset because abusive assholes will always exist. 

 

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

As a female you do that just by existing (your looks) and therefore you focus on stuff like love and intimacy. Us guys do not have such luxury.

 

Again wrong here. I have been hit on by guys who only wanted sex. It was a trap rather than a privilege. It in fact caused me to completely give up dating because my needs of intimacy were never met. 

Guys like you hardly approach girls 

Most guys who approach girls are very manipulative and girls end up with bad experiences. 

But most girls want a guy like you however guys like you hardly approach. 

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

Maybe top 10 percent super handsome ones can get girls attracted to them just by their looks but most guys cannot. They need to do it with their personality which is why PUA shit exists in the first place.

Why are trying to attract a girl who is only interested in looks? 

What makes you think that she would be interested in you and offer you an intimate connection when she is only interested in superficial things like money and looks and doesn't wish to appreciate you for who you are? 

Why not attract a woman who doesn't care about looks? 

For example, I dated a guy who was my second ex who was quite unattractive and had no charm or anything attractive or special. This is because I didn't care about looks 

There are plenty and plenty of girls who don't care about looks or money or anything at all. They only want intimacy and connection. If you approach them, they will easily want to be your girlfriend. 

This is like saying I want to date a millionaire who sleeps with a different woman every day and I'm also expecting an emotional connection from him. But how is this possible? He is just not that type of person who can give me that. But there are several guys who can give me emotional connection, maybe I should look for them instead of chasing the millionaire? 

You're chasing people who are into superficial things so you will also end up with superficial results. They will dump you as soon as they find another rich handsome guy. Why would you want that? 

Look for people who actually share your values. Then you will find someone equally compatible and you won't have to deal with this frustration you're facing. 

 


I'm a leftist liberal SJW. INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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@Karmadhi I don't like to judge people on their looks but since you brought up looks ill say - 

Judging by your profile pic, you look better than 60% men. You don't have any reason to feel insecure. 

You just have to be right with your approach and approach an emotionally resonant girl. She will be nice with you and she won't leave you. 

The key lies in your hands only. 

 


I'm a leftist liberal SJW. INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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I think there are many causes for the lack of strength in men today in its many forms physical, social, emotional, etc. On the physical side the access we have to high caloric foods we'r designed to crave and the sedentary lifestyle with our modern day office jobs. Emotional due to unstable family upbringings from childhood, not having a father in the picture to show what masculinity and strength should look like then going into a education system where majority of teachers are female so again not many can see and learn what the masculine is like through osmosis. Then the social side because we grow up behind screens now we'r more cut off from the opposite sex and don't develop those social skills we need. 

 

Online dating takes the harsh rejection out for men, they would rather avoid the effort and embarrassment of in person rejection. So everything has moved online. Problem there is that women are attracted to a lot more than just looks and those qualities aren't able to be shown online, so naturally men swipe more and women are more selective in the swipes and skews to top percentile of men. This has been shown again and again in studies. Also, todays environment is pretty hostile towards men. The me too movement which is valid, was the experience of a few percent of the population that got projected out as if its most men who are like that, this created a fear in a lot of men to now approach women ( which their weren't enough men doing anyway ) or for men to consider meeting their partners through work ( men won't even be alone with a woman in a office now days let alone flirt ). 

 

The pick up industry arose to correct mens social ills in good faith, obviously what it turned into did have shades of toxicity. But when men need to learn these skills and it is a skill, society shouldn't take elements of it and bash / cancel the whole ordeal. Even red pill etc has elements of truth to it, within anything there will be shades of toxicity of course but to blow those out of proportion and shut down the whole thing is a dis service. Its an easy out. If whenever women discussed mens issues men took something slightly demeaning and focused on it and said thats misandry,stop all this that wouldn't be helpful. There are plenty of women talk shows but very few for men to solve their problems, so forums and platforms were created for this. Men need to learn to develop themselves, and women need stronger better men today more than ever. 

 

The guys who'v had it good with women can't just say be your self bro, or be cool. If most guys were just them selves they'd creep girls out. Guys have to be their strongest selves and approach from a position of strength. 

 

Edited by zazen

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31 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen

@zazen 

Trying to weasel the incel into it.

 

Very constructive reply my friend, so much wisdom and feedback.  Voluntary celibacy is fine, but most men aren't doing it voluntarily. Their biology pulls at them and we must have sympathy for such people. Once the clutches of biology and their hormones starts weakening on men in their later years only then can they be at some ease and look to other aspects of life not dominated by sex. That or spiritual work from a younger age. 

 

Our society pedestalises sex and its all around us, naturally as sex sells to our lower nature, it naturally makes every man think thats what they ought to shoot for. We are a over sexualised society yet undersexed people.  And women suffer also for the caricature of the women put on display, the unrealistic shapes of Kardashians etc. Maybe from a sexual repressive society this was a needed swing the other way of the pendulum so we aren't scared of shamed for our sexuality but it needs to come back to balance now. 

I won't entertain your further comments unless they have some substance. 

Edited by zazen

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Women want men in touch with their femininity as the ladies have mentioned, but they want strong men in touch with their feminine, not weak. The masculine essence is strength, the feminine softness. Balanced men would be mostly masculine with some feminine to round them off and women mostly feminine with some masculine to round them off. If women were completely feminine without the masculine they would be too easily dominated over and have no boundaries. If men are too masculine they are un empathetic and too harsh. 

Now days men are lacking their masculinity, and the few that are in touch with it are so in a toxic way. The bad boys, jerks, etc and the music industry specifically hip hop exhibits toxic masculinity, not tempered by any femininity. Most men today are nice guys, but they lack the masculine. Women want a man who wants them, but does not need them as they are emotional spiritually strong amongst them selves. If men were stronger physically ( in touch with their sexuality and able to flirt ), emotionally ( not unavailable but resilient, to be a pillar for his woman and go through the harsh realities of life ), mentally ( in his perspective and way he views him self and the world, in a positive light and that he has worth and is esteemed ) and spiritually strong ( so he feels at home in himself and the world and at ease around women ). Men of strength are relaxed, and when relaxed they can be funnier, witty, non needy, speak clearly and project their voice, and empathetic towards women for if he is in fear of women how can he care for her when he's worried about caring for himself and his self image.

 

In turn women feel relaxed around such men and secure, and when they are safe they can rest in their femininity and soften up. Lack of strong men causes women to have to be excessively strong themselves, at the expense of their softness. Hence, in todays world we have  more stronger behaviours which men aren't attracted to such as swearing, combativeness, attitude etc. And for their to be attraction there needs to be a polarity of the masculine and feminine. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen

You have an axiomatic problem. Your words preassume the existence of so much, yet it's not.

That's where you need to grab on. Not the issues you're painting but from where you're painting the issues.

 

To start with see that there is a problem, then we can figure out solutions. But yes your right, there is no problem. Everyone is in a happy stable relationships and not alone and suffering in our society. Morgan Stanley with all their billions are delusional also to be investing money to research into trends of how over half the population of mating age will be living alone by 2030 and how this impacts real estate and the wider economy. 

https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy

The stage green, free love utopia that people think will exist where everyone is loved is a disney dream at least in the short to medium term. The people on this forum may be able to love each other despite their not being any attraction but this is under 1 percent of the population. People aren't evolved enough, men aren't evolved enough to love a unattractive lady in the romantic sense, and neither are women to love a weak man who they have to take care of. Until we get to the point where a woman will see the weakest men and consciously be able to say, this man isn't getting any love so I will love him un conditionally, even though Im not attracted to them as it would be better for our society and stop movements such as incels or extreme red pill from propping up, only then can that society function. 

Our culture and psychology may think in stage green, but our biology will takes thousands of years to evolve to stage green and for it to happen very naturally for us. Nature influences our genes, but we are also able to influence our genes by what we select for and pro create with, just that this takes a very very long time. Maybe in a thousand years babies will be born who are able to love unconditionally without attraction, who knows..

Edited by zazen

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@zazen @zazen

You're functioning under the same axiomatic problem again.

You won't be able to the defeat it if you look at its results and not itself.

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Fundamentally, biological evolution is slow, cultural evolution is fast, this is the essential problem humanity is facing today. Our lizard brains simply haven't had enough time to adapt to the chaos of the modern age. We have to live from our intelligence rather than instinct, from compulsion (of our instincts) to conciseness ( of how we'd like society to be ). The challenge is it's very hard to discard our natural instincts and in spiral dynamics lower stages are integrated, we have to integrates and live harmoniously with the lower level, that includes the lower parts of ourselves, work with out nature.

Its for this reason we have an obesity problem and high divorce rates. Our environment is triggering those instincts in a un healthy fashion. In past environments our instincts didn't destroy us as we had active lifestyles and limited high caloric food, and limited access to partners or by force of religion were not allowed to sleep around easily. Freedom of any kind confers the danger of making the wrong decision, instinctual decisions that in the modern environment can cause us and society harm. Sure, we are free now but we are not free and liberated from ourselves and our instinct, yet.. only the awakened ones are, the sages, the budhha's.

On a long enough time scale reality wins, and all what we are going through is our evolution on the path to awakening from our beast nature to our buddha nature. We are currently in limbo between the two, but in order to grow towards the sky, the tree needs to be rooted in the soil also. Our lowest nature is the stepping stone to higher things, we can't discard that stepping stone or deny its existence. The mud, the lower is from where we grow to the heavens. 

Edited by zazen

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11 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw Probably my competitive instinct. I want to understand when people make major mistakes so I can avoid them, and my mom's brother is in a similar situation so I hear about this quite a bit. 

Also, i used the example of my cousin because it's directly related to OP's topic. My cousin is an example of a modern woman who was left to her own devices to choose a partner, and now she's single in her late 30's with poor relationship prospects. A bunch of people just dismissed OP's premise as nonsense, but I have a real life example that illustrates what he's talking about

You talk about relationship prospects like it's a giant rummage sale that someone can show up late for. Everyone's "prospects" for anything are created by their own thoughts, fears and expectations. So you can look at someone and say they made a mistake, but that would be the mistake, because there are no mistakes. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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@mandyjw Well I guess I do view relationships competitively, but I don't think that's a bad thing because I think dating is competitve.

See, I disagree with you saying there are no mistakes in dating. If a woman/man were to go out and have 6 kids with 6 different men/woman, that would be impact their dating prospects in a negative way. That is a mistake that I want to avoid.

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1 hour ago, zazen said:

In turn women feel relaxed around such men and secure, and when they are safe they can rest in their femininity and soften up. Lack of strong men causes women to have to be excessively strong themselves, at the expense of their softness. Hence, in todays world we have  more stronger behaviours which men aren't attracted to such as swearing, combativeness, attitude etc. And for their to be attraction there needs to be a polarity of the masculine and feminine. 

I find all this "what makes attraction work" stuff as if every time I went into nature there was a narrator from the sky. "Now look to the left, over here is a pine tree. The pine tree reproduces by making pine cones!" 

Uh! Who would want that? It's beautiful. Just enjoy it, rather than thinking so much about why or for who. There's a point that understanding loses any benefit whatsoever and actually takes away from what is meant to be observed and enjoyed.  


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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