zazen

Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

209 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw Well I guess I do view relationships competitively, but I don't think that's a bad thing because I think dating is competitve.

See, I disagree with you saying there are no mistakes in dating. If a woman/man were to go out and have 6 kids with 6 different men/woman, that would be impact their dating prospects in a negative way. That is a mistake that I want to avoid.

People are not mistakes. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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@mandyjw Ok so what would you say if your son/daughter said mom I'm going to go and have 8 kids by 8 different people. You would say honey there are no mistakes so do what you want?

There are no mistakes. What can you say against that?

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2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

People are not mistakes. 

5 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I find all this "what makes attraction work" stuff as if every time I went into nature there was a narrator from the sky. "Now look to the left, over here is a pine tree. The pine tree reproduces by making pine cones!" 

Uh! Who would want that? It's beautiful. Just enjoy it, rather than thinking so much about why or for who. There's a point that understanding loses any benefit whatsoever and actually takes away from what is meant to be observed and enjoyed.  

Mistakes may be the wrong word as it denotes shame. Same with whats good and bad, but in reality there is cause and affect. There are actions and their consequences, the only question is a what consequences come from certain actions of ours and are we willing to deal with them as such. 

Agreed, too much head and not enough heart loses the magic in life. But at the same time, their are men struggling who wish to know how things work as they couldn't learn naturally. 

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@Raptorsin7 I doubt anyone actually plans to do that. However if it happens, it's not a mistake. The kids aren't mistakes. The parents aren't mistakes. See what I'm saying? The self identification is sticky there.

Being overly cautious trying to avoid mistakes is a mistake. It means you focus on what's going wrong and take measures to protect yourself, so that you never allow yourself to enjoy life with risk inherent, never fly on a plane, never swim in the ocean, etc, that would be a mistake. All you can do is focus on what you DO want, and then you intelligently decline situations that don't match that in favor of what you want more. 

1 minute ago, zazen said:

But at the same time, their are men struggling who wish to know how things work as they couldn't learn naturally. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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4 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Raptorsin7 I doubt anyone actually plans to do that. However if it happens, it's not a mistake. The kids aren't mistakes. The parents aren't mistakes. See what I'm saying? The self identification is sticky there.

Being overly cautious trying to avoid mistakes is a mistake. It means you focus on what's going wrong and take measures to protect yourself, so that you never allow yourself to enjoy life with risk inherent, never fly on a plane, never swim in the ocean, etc, that would be a mistake. All you can do is focus on what you DO want, and then you intelligently decline situations that don't match that in favor of what you want more. 

The only mistake is ignorance, but even that is not a mistake. How can we judge people when they don't act consciously, they aren't even the ones acting. Their biology, instincts, impulses and biases are running the show. Forgive them for they know not what they do, much of humanity is asleep to themselves and their actions. Our society has to move from ignorance to intelligence. 

 

 

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This guy has very interesting insights in his approach to male/female dynamics. He isn't red pilled or bitter either.

 

Edited by zazen

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6 hours ago, zazen said:

To start with see that there is a problem, then we can figure out solutions. But yes your right, there is no problem. Everyone is in a happy stable relationships and not alone and suffering in our society. Morgan Stanley with all their billions are delusional also to be investing money to research into trends of how over half the population of mating age will be living alone by 2030 and how this impacts real estate and the wider economy. 

https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy

The stage green, free love utopia that people think will exist where everyone is loved is a disney dream at least in the short to medium term. The people on this forum may be able to love each other despite their not being any attraction but this is under 1 percent of the population. People aren't evolved enough, men aren't evolved enough to love a unattractive lady in the romantic sense, and neither are women to love a weak man who they have to take care of. Until we get to the point where a woman will see the weakest men and consciously be able to say, this man isn't getting any love so I will love him un conditionally, even though Im not attracted to them as it would be better for our society and stop movements such as incels or extreme red pill from propping up, only then can that society function. 

Our culture and psychology may think in stage green, but our biology will takes thousands of years to evolve to stage green and for it to happen very naturally for us. Nature influences our genes, but we are also able to influence our genes by what we select for and pro create with, just that this takes a very very long time. Maybe in a thousand years babies will be born who are able to love unconditionally without attraction, who knows..

You’re making that assumption again that only a small percentage of the population will have people attracted to them.

But as I’ve said before, most people are capable of being attracted to most people.

And NO ONE needs to be with anyone that they’re not attracted to. Attraction is just the pre-requisite for romance to occur.

And people tend to be attracted to their match… especially women. 

In a person who is emotionally mature enough to sustain a long term relationship, looks and status are just the initial bar that has to be crossed. And for most people, that bar is analogous to where they are personally.

If you look at statistics (or if you just go to a flea market or grocery store), you’ll see that most people have a partner who matches them.

So this people only being attracted to millionaires and supermodels thing is not actually a real issue. Dispossess yourself of that illusion.


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@Emerald

I understand where your coming from. Its not even about the 1%. I guess people use the extreme end to get the point across. Lets say if even 70% of men are attractive enough and able to get a partner. How does society look if 30% who aren't able to stay single even though they don't desire too. The other 30% of women who those men could partner with, maybe those women decide they'd rather not go with them and live out their aspirations as they have the option to do so in todays free world, and there is no compulsion for them to be with those men because women don't depend those men for their livelihood. 

Their is equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. You could say a stage green free love society is in a sense capitalistic, because it is a free market where everyone has equality of opportunity to get the mate they'd like. In the past they pretty much enforced equality of outcome ie every man and woman has a partner. It's the same way as how the far left try to enforce equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Interesting way of looking at the situation. 

 

Maybe in the past it would have a destabilising affect on society. But now we have pornography, and other avenues of entertainment to almost satiate / sedate these men. Yet, we still get some who can't handle the pressure of their sexual urge and let it out in a grim fashion. We had a shooting here in UK last month in Plymouth by a self professed incel in fact killing a few people including his mother. A lot of the school shooters were in similar situations. I think for women the sexual urge isn't as intense as it is for men. Men can be horny most of the time where as for women its with the right man in the right context and setting. 

Edited by zazen

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23 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If you look at statistics (or if you just go to a flea market or grocery store), you’ll see that most people have a partner who matches them.

I think you're right in this. This is pretty observable, and mostly correct, with maybe few exceptions.

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Already shared this in another sub-forum where this was a topic starter. Might be helpful to somebody...

It might be helpful to elaborate on my perspective. Correct me if I get my spiral dynamics confused, but I think I have the gist....

I only just discovered Carl Jung and how the ego mind is separate from the rest of the mind. I only just discovered what the shadow is, how it affects your life and what you can do about it. If I had discovered Jung in my 20s or 30s it would have changed everything, but I have no complaints. I think my path made me into who I was supposed to be at this moment. 

I was an incel before the term was coined. I literally never got laid till I was 47. I'm 56 now.

I grew up in a very stage blue environment. Small towns in the rural South. Fundamentalist Christian. My parents were very much in love and did it the traditional way. Very good parents, but they couldn't control for all events. I experienced some sexual trauma when I was a young child and I was bullied in junior high, including by girls I was attracted to. I was also arty and bookish in a very anti-intellectual community. I became very introverted and built up a pretty strong shell. (On the upside, I learned not to care if anyone liked me or not, which has served me well.)

It didn't occur to me to blame women or society, because red pill dogma didn't exist yet, but I was lonely. I wanted sex, no idea how to get it. I understand now that events from my youth were embedded deep within my psyche and were unconsciously controlling my behavior and demeanor. AKA, my shadow.

As a result I had no game. I could talk to a girl about books or school or religion or what have you, but I was terrified to get personal, even if I really wanted to. Looking back, I can think of several I could have dated if I'd had guts enough to try, but I always found excuses why they weren't "the one." Instead, I had crushes I never acted on and used porn. And went on with my life.

I was lucky enough to find a career that let me use my brains, which is hard to come by in small townsville - newspaper journalism. It forced me to learn to talk to all kinds of people, learn to take criticism and develop skills and confidence. I evolved from stage blue Republican to stage orange libertarian Republican, but for dating I still had stage blue attitudes - monogamy, preferably the girl would be a virgin (so I wouldn't be judged if I couldn't perform), double standard for myself if I happened to get laid by some miracle. 

Again, I can think of plenty of missed opportunities. Any excuse not to try. I wanted what Mom and Dad had. As a result, any time I went on a date, I put pressure on myself - "this has to be the one" - which made for awkward dates, which I lied to myself about.

It didn't get better until I finally reached the point of now or never.

And became disillusioned with the right wing and evolved into stage green, which is more compatible with the type of woman I wanted - a smart woman with culture, who I could talk to and who would understand. And wound up in the orbit of a city full of women with those values. I went on enough dates until one of them clicked, and we're now married. And I guess I'm still somewhat stage blue about that because I have no desire to be with anyone else, nor does she. We're in this to the end. 

Again, no regrets. If I had settled down with someone earlier, I might have become stuck in a small town in a conservative culture with a hyper religious partner. When I inevitably became an atheist and progressive and whatever kind of spiritual but not religious creature I am today, I would have gotten a divorce, lost custody of any children, had an ex and in-laws that hated me. Or would have to suffer in silence and live a lie.

It took me decades to get where I am now. Stage green heading into stage yellow and hopefully beyond, more in touch with my feelings and more confident for it. If you want to get there faster than I did, do the work.

Study your shadow and find out what's holding you back. Have the courage to admit when you're wrong, face the things you're ashamed and afraid of in yourself. Be skeptical about your skepticism. Maybe get therapy. Read some Jung. Listen to some thinkers like Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts. I would say try mushrooms like I did, but if you're not ready you could have a rough time of it. You have to be willing to lower your defenses.

That you're here is a good sign. 

I haven't solved all my problems. I'm currently an old progressive without a job in a radicalizing Southern state. I have to figure out where I'm going next. I still have things in my shadow that are holding me back. That's why I'm here.

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@Late Boomer Wow, that's super inspiring dude. Beautifull post. I can see myself in that shadow thing a little bit. Although I was a lot luckier than you when it comes to enviroment I was raised in.

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42 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

I'm currently an old progressive without a job in a radicalizing Southern state.

A bit off-topic, but I assume you mean MAGA/Conservatives with the "radicalizing"?

What is it like? Is there violence? Organized groups? What does it look like? I'm asking this because it is very different to hear from someone actually seeing it happen rather than just read it from the news and social media.

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1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Emerald

I understand where your coming from. Its not even about the 1%. I guess people use the extreme end to get the point across. Lets say if even 70% of men are attractive enough and able to get a partner. How does society look if 30% who aren't able to stay single even though they don't desire too. The other 30% of women who those men could partner with, maybe those women decide they'd rather not go with them and live out their aspirations as they have the option to do so in todays free world, and there is no compulsion for them to be with those men because women don't depend those men for their livelihood. 

Their is equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. You could say a stage green free love society is in a sense capitalistic, because it is a free market where everyone has equality of opportunity to get the mate they'd like. In the past they pretty much enforced equality of outcome ie every man and woman has a partner. It's the same way as how the far left try to enforce equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Interesting way of looking at the situation. 

 

Maybe in the past it would have a destabilising affect on society. But now we have pornography, and other avenues of entertainment to almost satiate / sedate these men. Yet, we still get some who can't handle the pressure of their sexual urge and let it out in a grim fashion. We had a shooting here in UK last month in Plymouth by a self professed incel in fact killing a few people including his mother. A lot of the school shooters were in similar situations. I think for women the sexual urge isn't as intense as it is for men. Men can be horny most of the time where as for women its with the right man in the right context and setting. 

Back in the day and now is probably about the same in terms of people finding partners.

Back then, it was probably more common for men to die young because of war. That’s probably the biggest difference.

But why is it your assumption that there’s 30% of men who are just not going to have women attracted to them?

It’s an assumption that’s not based in reality at all. 

I’ve met plenty of lame guys in my life. And none of them were incapable of finding women who were interested in them.

For example, there’s a guy I used to know that looked like a walrus and was really creepy and weird. He had nothing going for him at all in any department. And even he had a few girlfriends in the time I knew him.

You seriously need to go live in a redneck town for a while. You’ll realize that no one is totally unfuckable.

You just have to get in touch with the reality of how people pair bond. It isn’t this extreme thing you’re imagining where tons of people are just hopeless.


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2 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I think you're right in this. This is pretty observable, and mostly correct, with maybe few exceptions.

I know I’m right about it. My eyes don’t deceive me. The mundane reality is much gentler and nicer than the falsehood.

People are people. And there’s literally no one out there who’s universally undesirable. 

And anyone who’s a 3 and above won’t even struggle to find someone, as long as they have reasonable expectations of finding a partner in their league… and enough self-esteem to put themselves out there.


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@roopepa It looks like Texas. Main impact on me was having to leave a job for reasons of conscience. In addition I'm almost completely alienated from most of my aunts, uncles and cousins who still live in the country. I still love them, but I can't talk to them. They were good people once. Mom and Dad are gone. Glad they didn't live to see this.

My wife and I are lucky enough to live in a somewhat progressive city, but it has a different problem - gentrification by people who call themselves liberals, but who have no social conscience. Homelessness is exploding and people have no empathy. The culture and music I came here for has mostly been priced out of the city, which is starting to have more of an LA vibe. Not so progressive any more.

The vibe from state government is getting pretty ominous as you probably know from the news. When you drive through the countryside, you see a lot of Gadsen flags and Trump 2024 flags. People don't wear masks or get vaccinated in the country. When I go there I can feel the tension. 

Although when I think about it, most of the right wing aggression doesn't really come from the country, it comes from the more affluent conservative suburbs. Country folks are being played and will end up being scapegoated as they always have been. 

Edited by Late Boomer
said city when I meant country

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14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The mundane reality is much gentler and nicer than the falsehood.

I suppose the previously experienced and unprocessed pain or trauma, makes painfull conclusions more believable than the nice ones.

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2 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I suppose the previously experienced and unprocessed pain or trauma, makes painfull conclusions more believable than the nice ones.

Bingo. 

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3 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I suppose the previously experienced and unprocessed pain or trauma, makes painfull conclusions more believable than the nice ones.

Yes exactly 


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