zazen

Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

199 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

See, you’re again adding in biology where it barely fits. No one needs to pretend to be attracted to someone that they aren’t attracted to.

I’ve NEVER been with a guy that I wasn’t attracted to… and I wouldn’t concede on that. Attraction is a pre-requisite for romantic connection. This feels like a “duh”.

Why would anyone need to concede this?

But I’m going to assume that communal living will start becoming more popular over the coming decades. We’re really in need of a return to more direct socialization.

 I know attraction is a pre-requisite for romantic connection, biology fits into that so how does it not fit. You don't have any biology, you used your biology (hands) to type this message out. 

No one needs to pretend to be attracted in that society, yes but then what happens in a free for all society where polyamry exists and we let the chips fall where they may. If we aren't evolved enough a subset of men will get most of the access and the remaining men will be disregarded. Unless they become celibates and channel their sexuality into genius to better the community. But like @Raptorsin7 says above, their is a lag. The lag is between our cultural evolution which is fast, and only gets faster with technology and our physical biology and psychology which takes much much longer. 

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1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Yeah i'm making claims about how people ought to live, or how society ought to be. I agree that transitioning and evolving society out of blue is the way to go. 

But there's going to be a lag, and there will be causalities of the evolution out of stage blue.

Take my cousin for example. She's almost into her 40's and it looks like she won't find someone to have kids before her biological clock runs out. Almost all the woman in my family have all their meaning in life come from their children and family, and my cousin won't get to experience that. 

My entire point is that there is actual substance to what OP is saying and you can have a good faith discussion without dismissing what he's saying out of hand.

Imagine I just said what you are saying is nonsense and basically just dismissed what you were saying because I thought it wasn't worth my time to respond to. I could understand if OP refuses to engage, but if he's actually willing to discuss the topic I don't see a point in commenting unless you're going to engage in good faith

Does your cousin actually want that?

I feel like, if she were really certain about it, she’d have probably made it happen… barring fertility issues.

Yet again… some women get so wrapped up in the IDEA of a relationship and family that they get into checkbox mentality about their partners.This is especially true where there’s lots of familial pressure involved. 

And this masculine oriented “pros and cons” mentality around finding “Mr. Right” just puts a stopper in real love and connection.

Looking for a good guy “on paper” can really screw over actual connection… which is inherently very messy.

But I get that the OP really believes what he’s saying… and in that sense is arguing in good faith.

But it’s still nonsense because it isn’t actually based in reality. It’s just a big system of abstract ideas that SEEM like reality because lots of misguided and inexperienced young men believe them and they’re all over on the internet.

But the reality is VERY different. Every man is better off just disregarding these ideas.


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

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33 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen You must drop that biology delusion. 

 

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Does your cousin actually want that?

I feel like, if she were really certain about it, she’d have probably made it happen… barring fertility issues.

Yet again… some women get so wrapped up in the IDEA of a relationship and family that they get into checkbox mentality about their partners.This is especially true where there’s lots of familial pressure involved. 

And this masculine oriented “pros and cons” mentality around finding “Mr. Right” just puts a stopper in real love and connection.

Looking for a good guy “on paper” can really screw over actual connection… which is inherently very messy.

But I get that the OP really believes what he’s saying… and in that sense is arguing in good faith.

But it’s still nonsense because it isn’t actually based in reality. It’s just a big system of abstract ideas that SEEM like reality because lots of misguided and inexperienced young men believe them and they’re all over on the internet.

But the reality is VERY different. Every man is better off just disregarding these ideas.

There are many with anecdotal experience as Raptorsin is point out within his life also. Its not all abstraction.

Your proving the point. ''Looking for a good guy “on paper” can really screw over actual connection''. Sure you and other women on this forum may not have such a list as your more consciously evolved but I'd wager most women in the population do and with good reason. Birthing children is costly in time, capital, energy and they need to secure and have standards with who they will mate with so they don't just get left behind to raise the child alone. 

 

''But it’s still nonsense because it isn’t actually based in reality. It’s just a big system of abstract ideas that SEEM like reality because lots of misguided and inexperienced young men believe them and they’re all over on the internet.''

 

Yeah nothings based in reality. Biological evolution is just an abstract idea also. As @Windappreciator said I should drop the biology delusion. Not sure how I'll type my messages out with out my biological hand, I'll try using my psychology and energy. 

Edited by zazen

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Just now, Emerald said:

Does your cousin actually want that?

I feel like, if she were really certain about it, she’d have probably made it happen… barring fertility issues.

Yet again… some women get so wrapped up in the IDEA of a relationship and family that they get into checkbox mentality about their partners.This is especially true where there’s lots of familial pressure involved. 

And this masculine oriented “pros and cons” mentality around finding “Mr. Right” just puts a stopper in real love and connection.

Looking for a good guy “on paper” can really screw over actual connection… which is inherently very messy.

But I get that the OP really believes what he’s saying… and in that sense is arguing in good faith.

But it’s still nonsense because it isn’t actually based in reality. It’s just a big system of abstract ideas that SEEM like reality because lots of misguided and inexperienced young men believe them and they’re all over on the internet.

But the reality is VERY different. Every man is better off just disregarding these ideas.

Yeah she has been actively looking for a partner for years now. She is very attractive, has a high paying job etc so when she was younger, early 30's, she was very picky and just dismissed most guys because a man on her socioeconomic level, looks level etc is pretty rare. Now she's in her late 30's she's basically run out of options it seems, for what her standard is. She's even asked about some guys she previously rejected, but they were already partnered.

Her entire belief system is stage blue/orange. It's basically about success (education, financial etc), which she attained, and then starting a family. All the happiest woman in my family are one's with healthy families. But she's going to miss out on that part. 

I mean if a large part of society is operating according to those beliefs then it is reality. Reality is just whatever people are doing and believing. 

I also don't think men should disregard these ideas, that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. You can be discerning about what parts you take to heart and act on, but there are elements of red pill ideology that map onto reality, and you are better off being aware of the dynamics then sticking your head in the sand

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2 minutes ago, zazen said:

 I know attraction is a pre-requisite for romantic connection, biology fits into that so how does it not fit. You don't have any biology, you used your biology (hands) to type this message out. 

No one needs to pretend to be attracted in that society, yes but then what happens in a free for all society where polyamry exists and we let the chips fall where they may. If we aren't evolved enough a subset of men will get most of the access and the remaining men will be disregarded. Unless they become celibates and channel their sexuality into genius to better the community. But like @Raptorsin7 says above, their is a lag. The lag is between our cultural evolution which is fast, and only gets faster with technology and our physical biology and psychology which takes much much longer. 

Yes, biology plays a role in attraction. But the role it plays is relatively low compared to other factors.

My point is that, when you’re adding in your IDEAS about biology, that your understanding is insufficient and leads to distortions.

This is evidenced by the fact that you seemed before to assume in your previous post that people would have to be in relationships with people they didn’t find attractive.

Your false assumption about biology seeming to be that most women are not capable of being attracted to a man who isn’t some top 1% guy. There’s where your low self-esteem meets your misunderstanding about human biology.

Most men are biologically sufficient for most women to be attracted to, and vice versa. It’s the other psychological and emotional factors that account for the selectivity. 

Also, I don’t think that more than 10%-20% of society will ever be polyamorous. I think most people will always prefer monogamy. 

And women are especially monogamously oriented. So, most women will never date a guy who has multiple partners.

But if you don’t want women to disregard you as a man, just ditch these ideas (which are lady repellent) and become a well-developed and emotionally intelligent guy. Let go of these petty insecure ideas.


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

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@Raptorsin7 What is it in you that finds that story about your cousin interesting, or regretful or painful or whatever? 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Yes, biology plays a role in attraction. But the role it plays is relatively low compared to other factors.

My point is that, when you’re adding in your IDEAS about biology, that your understanding is insufficient and leads to distortions.

This is evidenced by the fact that you seemed before to assume in your previous post that people would have to be in relationships with people they didn’t find attractive.

Your false assumption about biology seeming to be that most women are not capable of being attracted to a man who isn’t some top 1% guy. There’s where your low self-esteem meets your misunderstanding about human biology.

Most men are biologically sufficient for most women to be attracted to, and vice versa. It’s the other psychological and emotional factors that account for the selectivity. 

Also, I don’t think that more than 10%-20% of society will ever be polyamorous. I think most people will always prefer monogamy. 

And women are especially monogamously oriented. So, most women will never date a guy who has multiple partners.

But if you don’t want women to disregard you as a man, just ditch these ideas (which are lady repellent) and become a well-developed and emotionally intelligent guy. Let go of these petty insecure ideas.

The original post aren't my words. I think the author was just driving the point home, the 1% percent man is using the extreme to make those points but of course its not like just the 1% man is attractive and 99% aren't. That doesn't discount the fact that there is inequality naturally in the dating pool. Men may be biologically sufficient for women, but they lack emotional mental spiritual strength to attract women, and that is a problem today. 

Most women won't share men as they are inclined to monogamy and thats what makes it hard. They think, wait for or believe they can secure that top man who would be monogamous with them but that guy plays around. They hold off and disregard other suitors who would be happily partnered with her while she waits and gets older. 

I don't have low self esteem, I have a very good sex life in fact and great family friends, am in great health etc. Im objectively trying to discuss what is happening around us in society and from what I can see men and women in my life or who I come across suffering. 

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I think both zazen and Emerald have pretty interesting insights.

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@mandyjw Probably my competitive instinct. I want to understand when people make major mistakes so I can avoid them, and my mom's brother is in a similar situation so I hear about this quite a bit. 

Also, i used the example of my cousin because it's directly related to OP's topic. My cousin is an example of a modern woman who was left to her own devices to choose a partner, and now she's single in her late 30's with poor relationship prospects. A bunch of people just dismissed OP's premise as nonsense, but I have a real life example that illustrates what he's talking about

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7 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Raptorsin7 What is it in you that finds that story about your cousin interesting, or regretful or painful or whatever? 

Maybe she deeply wants a family life and to fulfil her maternal instinct. Of course, women don't just have to be mothers biologically by birth but can be motherly in essence to their community also. A few of my female friends in their 30's are single and want the same and are anxious about being able to find someone to share their life with. We feel their pain and wish to know why things are the way they are and what we can do to maybe help.

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7 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

There are many with anecdotal experience as Raptorsin is point out within his life also. Its not all abstraction.

Your proving the point. ''Looking for a good guy “on paper” can really screw over actual connection''. Sure you and other women on this forum may not have such a list as your more consciously evolved but I'd wager most women in the population do and with good reason. Birthing children is costly in time, capital, energy and they need to secure and have standards with who they will mate with so they don't just get left behind to raise the child alone. 

 

''But it’s still nonsense because it isn’t actually based in reality. It’s just a big system of abstract ideas that SEEM like reality because lots of misguided and inexperienced young men believe them and they’re all over on the internet.''

 

Yeah nothings based in reality. Biological evolution is just an abstract idea also. As @Windappreciator said I should drop the biology delusion. Not sure how I'll type my messages out with out my biological hand, I'll try using my psychology and energy. 

Looking for Mr. Right on paper is such a masculine principle oriented thing.

It really happens when a woman gets out of touch with her intuition and feelings. Your feelings will do a MUCH better job matching you with someone than your rational mind will.

My issue is more the opposite… though I would say it’s not really been that big of an issue. I’ve been in major relationships pretty much since I was 16… shy a few months here and there. Yet again, this lack of singleness has its own problems.

I should probably just let myself be single for a while at this point. But I’ll have to see what my intuition wants.

But when I get attracted to a man, I find every man except one unappealing. And I feel so intensely for that one guy.

And it is only this intense feeling that triggers my pair-bonding drives.

So, I never want “a” relationship. I just want that one particular guy. The idea of finding a relationship in general feels super boring in the abstract.

And I usually only get an attraction once every year and a half or so.

And my sex drive is very attuned to my child rearing drive. So naturally, I had my kids young. 

The issue with planning all this stuff so intensely is that the reality becomes detached from the idea.

And you plan to have “x” kind of guy who has this job and that look and this car, etc. and then you plan to have kids at 28 and they’ll be named Brixley and Braxley and etc.

And OMG! Does that sound fucking boring on paper.

But Mr. Random that I met the other day is looking very warm indeed! 


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

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5 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen @zazen You're just making it worse.

Instead of simply answering you put on-top of your response another delusion for you not to rethink.

Im simply answering? Sure. Whats the delusion then.. and you can't simply say biology, thats a simple answer my friend. All is love. 

 

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Looking for Mr. Right on paper is such a masculine principle oriented thing.

It really happens when a woman gets out of touch with her intuition and feelings. Your feelings will do a MUCH better job matching you with someone than your rational mind will.

My issue is more the opposite… though I would say it’s not really been that big of an issue. I’ve been in major relationships pretty much since I was 16… shy a few months here and there. Yet again, this lack of singleness has its own problems.

I should probably just let myself be single for a while at this point. But I’ll have to see what my intuition wants.

But when I get attracted to a man, I find every man except one unappealing. And I feel so intensely for that one guy.

And it is only this intense feeling that triggers my pair-bonding drives.

So, I never want “a” relationship. I just want that one particular guy. The idea of finding a relationship in general feels super boring in the abstract.

And I usually only get an attraction once every year and a half or so.

And my sex drive is very attuned to my child rearing drive. So naturally, I had my kids young. 

The issue with planning all this stuff so intensely is that the reality becomes detached from the idea.

And you plan to have “x” kind of guy who has this job and that look and this car, etc. and then you plan to have kids at 28 and they’ll be named Brixley and Braxley and etc.

And OMG! Does that sound fucking boring on paper.

But Mr. Random that I met the other day is looking very warm indeed! 

Love it! Yea, when a women is deeply in love she becomes tunnel visioned on that one guy, its a beautiful bubble thats created between the two. The art is in maintaining that bubble over long periods of time as most relationships don't last long. In the past we were monogamous for life, now we are monogamous one at a time! 

 

12 minutes ago, Tudo said:

I think both zazen and Emerald have pretty interesting insights.

The tide is turning.. must be for the thread to have this many views in a day or so. Interesting discussion for sure, and all insights including Emeralds. 

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I don't know anyone in my life, when I was in my 20's who acted like this.  I think the whole redpill thing is off, because "saintly" women, women who "sleep around", single or multiple partners, good or bad men, high or low quality, we kind of just went with who we liked the most.  There wasn't some sort of inner game where a guy with higher status was considered better.  This may happen with really top tier models who are looking for the millionaires, but most normal, average people are looking for the same thing - which is compatibility.

I don't think you have to worry too much about hypergamy unless you're doing the same thing and showing interest in women who are out of your league.  Most men want a woman like this, but guess what... they are the same as women in your league.  They need the same things, they worry about the same things, you know?

We don't need to regulate the dating market because the only women you want to regulate are those you (not you as an individual, but the royal you) probably won't ever get.

Don't worry so much about these sorts of things, just focus on finding someone who is a human being.
Try to relate to women more from that level and you are ahead of the game.  Wish I could give you better advice, Emerald has you covered here.

I would just try to reject what a lot of these really dry, almost doctor prescription-esque views of women.  Try viewing women instead of "women = the animal", try "a unique chick = a person with a life story and history just like you."

I'm in my 30's now, before a lot of this social media stuff was happening, and the girl who slept around a lot, was just as sweet, innocent and loving as the one who waited.  People just... talked... and if there was compatibility, great, if not, then we reassigned roles and became friends.  There was little drama about the whole thing.  This red pill stuff, it feels like reading a dog behaviour book, but for an intelligent human that has more emotions and nuance.  These human behaviouralist sorts of worldviews don't really work on real people, we are too complex at the individual level.

Try getting to know someone, as a person first and see how that goes.

I don't get dating nowadays, it is so much different from my day, and it seems like it changed SO fast, too.  Like I'm not that old, and I feel like I come from a different world view as just folks who are ten years younger.  I wish I knew what happened, because it isn't mostly for the best.  I don't look at that stuff, like dating advice and things like this because I don't want to give a script to someone that isn't me.  It's inauthentic.  

@Emerald  What happened to the dating scene?  My 20's was spent with a few guys, but really just one guy on and off again for about ten years.  I don't relate to most of what is said about women, because he was just a normal guy... not top tier, no one talked like this, either.  What do you predict it will look like ten years from now?

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16 minutes ago, zazen said:

The original post aren't my words. I think the author was just driving the point home, the 1% percent man is using the extreme to make those points but of course its not like just the 1% man is attractive and 99% aren't. That doesn't discount the fact that there is inequality naturally in the dating pool. Men may be biologically sufficient for women, but they lack emotional mental spiritual strength to attract women, and that is a problem today. 

Most women won't share men as they are inclined to monogamy and thats what makes it hard. They think, wait for or believe they can secure that top man who would be monogamous with them but that guy plays around. They hold off and disregard other suitors who would be happily partnered with her while she waits and gets older. 

I don't have low self esteem, I have a very good sex life in fact and great family friends, am in great health etc. Im objectively trying to discuss what is happening around us in society and from what I can see men and women in my life or who I come across suffering. 

But yet you’re still perpetuating a nonsense idea. They may not be your words… but you must believe in them enough to post them on a public forum.

And even in this post you have this idea that women generally want to secure a “top man” (and even that there is a top man in the first place) and that this “top man” has tons of women after him looking for marriage but he just fucks around.

It’s the existence of this “top man” that I’m calling into question. He sounds like a real wanker to me.

The best guys to have relationships with are average men who have developed enough emotional maturity to have a healthy relationship with. And any intelligent woman knows this.


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

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It's not true that a woman wants to secure a top man. 

This is a manufactured concept out of the red pill book. 

Women choose partners on the basis of whatever clicks with them in the phase of life they're at. 

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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5 minutes ago, Loba said:

I don't know anyone in my life, when I was in my 20's who acted like this.  I think the whole redpill thing is off, because "saintly" women, women who "sleep around", single or multiple partners, good or bad men, high or low quality, we kind of just went with who we liked the most.  There wasn't some sort of inner game where a guy with higher status was considered better.  This may happen with really top tier models who are looking for the millionaires, but most normal, average people are looking for the same thing - which is compatibility.

I don't think you have to worry too much about hypergamy unless you're doing the same thing and showing interest in women who are out of your league.  Most men want a woman like this, but guess what... they are the same as women in your league.  They need the same things, they worry about the same things, you know?

We don't need to regulate the dating market because the only women you want to regulate are those you (not you as an individual, but the royal you) probably won't ever get.

Don't worry so much about these sorts of things, just focus on finding someone who is a human being.
Try to relate to women more from that level and you are ahead of the game.  Wish I could give you better advice, Emerald has you covered here.

I would just try to reject what a lot of these really dry, almost doctor prescription-esque views of women.  Try viewing women instead of "women = the animal", try "a unique chick = a person with a life story and history just like you."

I'm in my 30's now, before a lot of this social media stuff was happening, and the girl who slept around a lot, was just as sweet, innocent and loving as the one who waited.  People just... talked... and if there was compatibility, great, if not, then we reassigned roles and became friends.  There was little drama about the whole thing.  This red pill stuff, it feels like reading a dog behaviour book, but for an intelligent human that has more emotions and nuance.  These human behaviouralist sorts of worldviews don't really work on real people, we are too complex at the individual level.

Try getting to know someone, as a person first and see how that goes.

I don't get dating nowadays, it is so much different from my day, and it seems like it changed SO fast, too.  Like I'm not that old, and I feel like I come from a different world view as just folks who are ten years younger.  I wish I knew what happened, because it isn't mostly for the best.  I don't look at that stuff, like dating advice and things like this because I don't want to give a script to someone that isn't me.  It's inauthentic.  

@Emerald  What happened to the dating scene?  My 20's was spent with a few guys, but really just one guy on and off again for about ten years.  I don't relate to most of what is said about women, because he was just a normal guy... not top tier, no one talked like this, either.  What do you predict it will look like ten years from now?

I’m right there with you. It’s like every man who’s my age and younger just got totally brainwashed by this redpill stuff.

At least there are older men who aren’t quite as online, who had to actually leave their dungeons to socialize in their teens and twenties. They tend to be less likely to succumb to these illusions.


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

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1 minute ago, Emerald said:

I’m right there with you. It’s like every man who’s my age and younger just got totally brainwashed by this redpill stuff.

At least there are older men who aren’t quite as online, who had to actually leave their dungeons to socialize in their teens and twenties. They tend to be less likely to succumb to these illusions.

I know right. It's such a delusional idea floating on the internet spread and perpetuated by people who suffer deep insecurities 

Ironically its these same insecurities that actually prevent them from a wholesome relationship. 

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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15 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But yet you’re still perpetuating a nonsense idea. They may not be your words… but you must believe in them enough to post them on a public forum.

And even in this post you have this idea that women generally want to secure a “top man” (and even that there is a top man in the first place) and that this “top man” has tons of women after him looking for marriage but he just fucks around.

It’s the existence of this “top man” that I’m calling into question. He sounds like a real wanker to me.

The best guys to have relationships with are average men who have developed enough emotional maturity to have a healthy relationship with. And any intelligent woman knows this.

I believe there is some substance and something we can learn from it yes. By top man it means their top man, the best they think they can get, it will differ slightly for everyone of course. Not necessarily the prince or ceo of a company. 

''The best guys to have relationships with are average men'' correct but a lot of women can over look these men they are average. Especially now that women are earning. Women value higher earners - that is a man with security/resources to ensure survival on a certain level, a lot of it is subconscious, and likewise men out of ego wouldn't feel comfortable if their partner earned more than them. But because that is what women value in men, they project this onto themselves and so if they are higher earners also value them selves to that higher status. And so the standard is set that men must meet that level or above for them to even consider certain men as options. Women are out competing men in education today in fact, and theres less men on that level. This isn't how you view it but how a lot women would.  There are exceptions to the rule of women earning more than men and being in relationships, but that is the exception. 

Like Loba mentioned the dating game has changed, yes it has. 

Edited by zazen

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Just now, Preety_India said:

I know right. It's such a delusional idea floating on the internet spread and perpetuated by people who suffer deep insecurities 

Ironically its these same insecurities that actually prevent them from a wholesome relationship. 

 

Exactly. The way they see women really prevents connection.

What’s a shame is that they’re reading all this stuff because they think it will help them get better with women.

But it’s this very mindset that will rub women the wrong way and scare us off.

You know that once he’s started spouting redpill nonsense that he’s been brainwashed and you’ve lost him.


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