soos_mite_ah

Why there are so many incels and red pillers on a spirituality forum

48 posts in this topic

@soos_mite_ah I'm not really sure where to start with this particular issue. It's been some years since I really went out of my way to observe this phenomenon extensively, including when I used to go on message boards and subreddits just to observe the way they think and justify their thinking. It was almost like a morbid curiosity: it definitely didn't feel very good to observe it, and it was hard not to take their behaviour and actions personally even at least a bit. After some time, I stopped taking it personally and getting reactive towards it all together, though sometimes I find it a bit tiresome, mostly I autofilter it out unless some issue is of specific interest.

One issue that I spent some time observing and thinking a lot about was the really uncomfortable intersection between race, sexual desirability (whether pure belief or with some degree of truth, purely personal, collective, or otherwise), and inceldom which I feel like is something that people generally don't want to look at too directly. It's too easy to either dismiss them entirely, or alternatively for a minority of people to sympathize with them and thereby justify them to some degree or another. For example, a case that I paid a lot of attention to was Elliot Rodger, because all the reporting I had seen did not talk about his race at all; and I took one look at him, and I was really sure that he was Eurasian. Which he was. And here in (Anglo) North American, there is a tendency for Eurasian men to get grouped in with Asian men, and whatever social/ sexual preconceptions they face, they also face too. (I saw you made a post about this semi-recently on how Asian men are treated in NA media and I agree with you; I'm not on board with this).

I have noticed a very strong racial self-hate subcurrent to it.

I'm not sure. Eliott Rodger may have been considered white passing enough to most people to not notice, or perhaps people were simply avoiding the race issue, but he internalized all of that racial self-hate. I read his whole stupid manifesto; there was definitely a huge issue there. People brought up the fact that he might have had some sort of classic mental disorder, and that he was particularly obsessed with the fact that blonde, white sorority girls did not simply fall into his lap. ... What is not generally mentioned is his ethnic background, his upbringing, his relationship with his siblings and parents, that he grew up and went to university in a white locale (to my memory), and that he took his anger more directly out on the Asian men he first encountered before he killed the others.

I remember there was another case of an self-labelled incel serial killer here in Canada who I believe was middle eastern (edit: he was Armenian-Iranian), but I'm not sure about the race factor here, and with nothing to work with, I'm not inclined to speculate.

...

But as a greater generalization, I think it attracts males who have issues (anger, resentment, confusion, frustration, social disenfranchisement, unhinged sexual and emotional energy), and gives them an ideology and social outlet for it, otherwise they'd just be seething in a corner by themselves without a compass, probably. The social outlet becomes like a sort of massive echo chamber, and the ideology helps reinforce, solidify, and justify already existing emotions.

Edited by modmyth
People did not take this phenomenon as seriously back then, and the term "incel" wasn't as in common usage because it was still relatively fresh.

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@modmyth I do have a morbid curiosity towards this whole phenomenon. There's just so much you can talk about from the envy, the masochistic epistemology (and just natalie's takes in general tbh), the racism, the sexism, people growing more and more isolated, right wing resurgence and more. I do like how you brought up the racial subtext to a lot of this because I do feel like it is something that gets ignored for the blatant misogyny. I think this side of things is especially something that a lot of Asian men do have to deal with because of the way white supremacy demasculinizes them. I feel like when it comes to things like misogyny and internalized incel self hatred, each demographic has their own specific flavor of it depending on a myriad of factors, most of which come from historical context. 

I think the other reason why the racism aspect goes undiscussed about is because on how a lot of the mass shooters are white men, typically white men who have been rejected by a woman or isolated by a lot of people growing up. 


Speaking into the void that sometimes answers back 

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7 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Also @Etherial Cat @Tangerinedream @modmyth @Raphael @RendHeaven @Emerald @flowboy @aurum, I don't mean to put you on the spot but, I would love to hear some of yall's thoughts if yall have any. Specifically on the role of envy. 

My thinking is that everyone usually has a mix of both light and shadow motivations.

For example, let’s say I start reading personal development books because I’m tired of not living up to my potential. I want to be the best version I can be, and from that place, be of service to others. I would consider this a “light” motivation, as it’s usually the motivation we are most conscious of and identified with.

But, let’s say that I also start reading personal development books because deep down I don’t feel I’ll ever be good enough or measure up. And so personal development helps me cope with this pain by allowing me to feel like I’m always “improving”. This I would consider a “shadow” motivation, and it’s usually not in our conscious awareness. Only later may we recognize it.

It’s this psychological fragmentation that can allow us to have these multiple motives all at the same time. Even motives that may seem contradictory. And our actions tend to be the result of this inner conflict.

So in your case, you are speaking about envy in the spiritual community for essentially material success. We all have needs, but if we feel we cannot meet them, we may resort to coping mechanisms (like envy or judgment) to feel better about ourselves. This definitely does happen and is definitely a potential shadow motivation people in the spiritual community should be aware of.

At the same time, does this mean the spiritual community is particularly toxic? I don’t think so. The reality is that the mind can use any teaching to justify anything it feels is in its best interests. This is not a problem unique to spiritual people. I could just as easily take a secular teaching and distort it just the same. 

Perhaps we could say those in the spiritual community should be held to a higher standard since we claim higher levels of awareness. And maybe for a spiritual master, I would agree. But I think this is mostly unfair to ask of your average seeker.

Your average seeker, who hasn’t put in lots of work, is more or less at the same level of awareness as anyone else.

So I think you make good points. There’s more we could go into here but this I feel is the most essential.

Edited by aurum

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If you see obviously toxic or sexist stuff being spouted in a thread on this sub-forum, point it out and Mods and I will work to lock it down or clean it up.

I will be more sensitive and politically correct as well.

But it has to actually be toxic, not merely a difference of opinion. Men and women will always have a difference of perspective here because of competing agendas. Mostly what I want to see stop is the blaming of the opposite sex for one's own frustrations and inadequacies. If you're blaming the opposite sex that's your clue that you're fooling yourself.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Mostly what I want to see stop is the blaming of the opposite sex for one's own frustrations and inadequacies. If you're blaming the opposite sex that's your clue that you're fooling yourself.

Couldn't agree more. It's a complete abdication of responsibility to point the finger like that, not to mention downright tedious.


'When you look outside yourself for something to make you feel complete, you never get to know the fullness of your essential nature.' - Amoda Maa Jeevan

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I think we really need to remind ourselves that this forum is meant to be a resource that facilitates growth. It is not a kind of medium that supports bias like most of the other media. In my opinion, there are many forgiving girls on this forum, like very very forgiving. They create a really good environment for men who are struggling like this to grow. In my experience, growth mindset and dedication to it is attractive/desired and also necessary in any kind of relationship, platonic, romantic or sexual. The issue is the people who are not here to grow. I guess growth can be scary but it is rewarding.

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I didn't watch the video, but here are my thoughts so far:

Why they are incels on this forum:

  • Some of the most popular actualized.org videos are videos about Sex & Relationships. Even if they are old, these videos probably still continue to get a lot of views compared to new videos because everyone is obsessed with sex.
  • Most people who search for these videos are people who struggle in this area, otherwise, they wouldn't search for them because they would already have proper relationships. 
  • In these people, there is a percentage of them who are dysfunctional young men with misogynistic views on women (incels).
  • Leo as the authority often has a hypermasculine approach and uses vulgar language, therefore incels resonate with that and get attracted to this forum and throw their toxic views here.
  • Incels here are a manifestation of Leo's shadows: his difficulties regarding relationships and women when he was younger.
  • Also, deep spirituality at a too young age can be an escape from responsibility. It creates shadows because people don't fix basic life issues, but want to appear highly spiritually evolved. I'm calling this toxic spirituality.

Why incels exist:

  • We are in the digital era where the easiest things to do are: watch TV and browse the internet. Because of that people tend to stay at home and get quickly isolated + there is currently a pandemic.
  • Hypersexualization of women: young men who are isolated and don't have healthy feminine figures around them have very little understanding of women. They often see women portraited in hypersexualized ways on mainstream ads, mainstream TV shows, mainstream movies, mainstream video games, therefore only perceive them as sex objects.
  • Sexual liberation has come too far (my view here might be a bit fucked, tell me if you think that this is the case): sexual repression is an issue that is still present, but it looks like there's also one with sexual liberation when it goes too far. When it goes too far, some people get trapped into the idea that they should have sex at all costs and have sex with the most partner possible. Incels who are most of the time in the beginning only average isolated guys get ashamed that they don't have that much sex and start to fall in a downward spiral of shame. They then project their shame as hate on online forums.
  • Toxic masculine beauty standards: in the most popular movies, TV shows, and video games the ideal masculine beauty standard is portraited as a guy with big muscles who can protect women. Most guys aren't like that, but as incels consume a lot of this content they get convinced that this is what they should look like and hide in shame because they cannot attain these standards.
  • Regarding envy: I'll say here that this is a normal emotion and that this is normal if it becomes stronger because of lack of sexual experience. However, I noticed that hypersexualization can amplify this and create shame. Here's a metaphor: I cannot envy ice cream if I never tasted ice cream, however, I can if I already tasted ice cream in the past and if I'll envy it stronger if they are a lot of ice cream around me and cannot get them. I feel that hypersexualization can make the feeling of envy stronger and this is not healthy. In my case, I noticed that I crave less sex when they aren't hypersexualized images of women around me even though I still have my cravings.
  • Some incels were born with mental health issues and/or physical disabilities / uncommon traits and are seen as much less attractive than average people and therefore have more difficulties.
  • Most of the time I'll say that incels are a manifestation of toxic stage Orange.

I personally can emphasize with incels a bit because I feel that if just a few tiny things didn't happen in my life, I could have been one of them. Here's my story:

  • I was born with a skinny genetics because of that I got bullied and humiliated a lot for being physically weaker than other guys. I was also always lost in my head, had some natural shyness, and therefore wouldn't react as people would expect and attract criticism.
  • I got criticized by men, women, family members, teachers, and because of that choose to self-isolate to avoid all the hate that I would receive. I was basically all alone at 15 and coped by playing video games.
  • Around 16-17, I had enough and got the desire to grow and to succeed so I self-educated myself, I took school more seriously and it helped me to get better in life.
  • I did have some resentment towards the opposite sex because I got mocked by girls and because no girl that I knew found me attractive. However, I had great feminine figures around me: a great mother and a great sister with who I spent a lot of time + I had a liberal education where we discussed gender issues in class. Thanks to these feminine figures and my education, I was conscious of the difficulties of women and didn't fall into pure stereotyping. I was in a weird position where I had some resentment, but at the same time was conscious of women's issues and would prefer to take position for women because the masculine examples that I had were ultra toxic.
  • Currently, I still have things to work through here.

One of the reasons that incels trigger me is because I experienced similar difficulties but maybe not to the same degree. Overall, I think that these people need serious psychological help/re-education.

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Why incels exists on this forum: because they exist everywhere.

Why incels exists: because of natural reasons. Women are naturally hardwired to be more selective, picky and demanding about their partner. It's not because of internet.

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:05 PM, aurum said:

My thinking is that everyone usually has a mix of both light and shadow motivations.

For example, let’s say I start reading personal development books because I’m tired of not living up to my potential. I want to be the best version I can be, and from that place, be of service to others. I would consider this a “light” motivation, as it’s usually the motivation we are most conscious of and identified with.

But, let’s say that I also start reading personal development books because deep down I don’t feel I’ll ever be good enough or measure up. And so personal development helps me cope with this pain by allowing me to feel like I’m always “improving”. This I would consider a “shadow” motivation, and it’s usually not in our conscious awareness. Only later may we recognize it.

It’s this psychological fragmentation that can allow us to have these multiple motives all at the same time. Even motives that may seem contradictory. And our actions tend to be the result of this inner conflict.

So in your case, you are speaking about envy in the spiritual community for essentially material success. We all have needs, but if we feel we cannot meet them, we may resort to coping mechanisms (like envy or judgment) to feel better about ourselves. This definitely does happen and is definitely a potential shadow motivation people in the spiritual community should be aware of.

At the same time, does this mean the spiritual community is particularly toxic? I don’t think so. The reality is that the mind can use any teaching to justify anything it feels is in its best interests. This is not a problem unique to spiritual people. I could just as easily take a secular teaching and distort it just the same. 

Perhaps we could say those in the spiritual community should be held to a higher standard since we claim higher levels of awareness. And maybe for a spiritual master, I would agree. But I think this is mostly unfair to ask of your average seeker.

Your average seeker, who hasn’t put in lots of work, is more or less at the same level of awareness as anyone else.

So I think you make good points. There’s more we could go into here but this I feel is the most essential.

I really like these points. Yeah, I'm definitely not trying to say that spirituality is particularly toxic but it's important to be cognizant of the shadow aspects that cause people to get into spirituality in order to hold the spiritual community to a higher standard and so that spiritual teachings are being executed in a safe and healthy way. 

There was a part of my spirituality/ self help journey where I did notice this shadow aspect of myself that had this attitude of "I'm not good enough the way I am, I have to keep fixing myself to be a better person." I really had to address that and get out of the habit of "fixing things" and instead move into more acceptance and gentleness in regards to self love and improvement. 


Speaking into the void that sometimes answers back 

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:54 AM, Raphael said:

I didn't watch the video, but here are my thoughts so far:

Why they are incels on this forum:

  • Some of the most popular actualized.org videos are videos about Sex & Relationships. Even if they are old, these videos probably still continue to get a lot of views compared to new videos because everyone is obsessed with sex.
  • Most people who search for these videos are people who struggle in this area, otherwise, they wouldn't search for them because they would already have proper relationships. 
  • In these people, there is a percentage of them who are dysfunctional young men with misogynistic views on women (incels).
  • Leo as the authority often has a hypermasculine approach and uses vulgar language, therefore incels resonate with that and get attracted to this forum and throw their toxic views here.
  • Incels here are a manifestation of Leo's shadows: his difficulties regarding relationships and women when he was younger.
  • Also, deep spirituality at a too young age can be an escape from responsibility. It creates shadows because people don't fix basic life issues, but want to appear highly spiritually evolved. I'm calling this toxic spirituality.
    • I really like the last point. I have had run ins with toxic spirituality and jumping into transcendence prematurely before integration. I feel like at worst, that method can result you in supressing your needs (as a way of coping with your needs not getting met), creating a spiritual ego, and becoming judgmental/ secretly envious. Over all, not a good look. Can lead to a lot of zen devilry if left unchecked. 

Why incels exist:

  • We are in the digital era where the easiest things to do are: watch TV and browse the internet. Because of that people tend to stay at home and get quickly isolated + there is currently a pandemic.
  • Hypersexualization of women: young men who are isolated and don't have healthy feminine figures around them have very little understanding of women. They often see women portraited in hypersexualized ways on mainstream ads, mainstream TV shows, mainstream movies, mainstream video games, therefore only perceive them as sex objects.
  • Sexual liberation has come too far (my view here might be a bit fucked, tell me if you think that this is the case): sexual repression is an issue that is still present, but it looks like there's also one with sexual liberation when it goes too far. When it goes too far, some people get trapped into the idea that they should have sex at all costs and have sex with the most partner possible. Incels who are most of the time in the beginning only average isolated guys get ashamed that they don't have that much sex and start to fall in a downward spiral of shame. They then project their shame as hate on online forums.
    • Regarding the two points above, I honestly think that hypersexualization is at odds with sexual liberation because hypersexualization takes agency away from people. I have written a lot in my journal on how being sexualized is at odds with being sexual because with the former, you're having other's presumptions slapped onto you rather than defining your sexuality on your own terms. I also think part of sexual liberation is being ok with waiting and not putting such an emphasis on sex to where people feel ashamed about waiting or ashamed about becoming sexually active later than most of their peers.  To me, sexual liberation is about having the freedom of choice (whether that means being promiscous or waiting) and honoring all of the different ways people's sexual journeys and discoveries manifest (even if it means becoming a late bloomer for whatever reason, taking extra time to figure out your orientation, stepping back because you had difficult experiences regard sex and sexuality growing up etc. There is no shame in any of that). 
  • Toxic masculine beauty standards: in the most popular movies, TV shows, and video games the ideal masculine beauty standard is portraited as a guy with big muscles who can protect women. Most guys aren't like that, but as incels consume a lot of this content they get convinced that this is what they should look like and hide in shame because they cannot attain these standards.
    • They really do be doubling down on the very standards that hurt them instead of questioning the standards themselves because they internalized the ideology so much. 
  • Regarding envy: I'll say here that this is a normal emotion and that this is normal if it becomes stronger because of lack of sexual experience. However, I noticed that hypersexualization can amplify this and create shame. Here's a metaphor: I cannot envy ice cream if I never tasted ice cream, however, I can if I already tasted ice cream in the past and if I'll envy it stronger if they are a lot of ice cream around me and cannot get them. I feel that hypersexualization can make the feeling of envy stronger and this is not healthy. In my case, I noticed that I crave less sex when they aren't hypersexualized images of women around me even though I still have my cravings.
    • I agree. Hypersexualization can double down on envy because it creates this notion that everything revolves around sex and that sex is the end all be all. First of all, if you aren't having it for whatever reason, it's just this constant reminder. And second, when you put sex in such a high pedestal, even if you are thriving else where in your life, instead of focusing on that, you end up fixating on that one thing you lack which then creates a breeding ground for envy. 
  • Some incels were born with mental health issues and/or physical disabilities / uncommon traits and are seen as much less attractive than average people and therefore have more difficulties.
    • Even more of a reason why we need to make access to mental health care more accessible. 
  • Most of the time I'll say that incels are a manifestation of toxic stage Orange.
    • To me, they are a manifestation of toxic stage orange where the problems then cause people to backslide into red and blue as a reaction

I personally can emphasize with incels a bit because I feel that if just a few tiny things didn't happen in my life, I could have been one of them. Here's my story:

  • I was born with a skinny genetics because of that I got bullied and humiliated a lot for being physically weaker than other guys. I was also always lost in my head, had some natural shyness, and therefore wouldn't react as people would expect and attract criticism.
  • I got criticized by men, women, family members, teachers, and because of that choose to self-isolate to avoid all the hate that I would receive. I was basically all alone at 15 and coped by playing video games.
  • Around 16-17, I had enough and got the desire to grow and to succeed so I self-educated myself, I took school more seriously and it helped me to get better in life.
  • I did have some resentment towards the opposite sex because I got mocked by girls and because no girl that I knew found me attractive. However, I had great feminine figures around me: a great mother and a great sister with who I spent a lot of time + I had a liberal education where we discussed gender issues in class. Thanks to these feminine figures and my education, I was conscious of the difficulties of women and didn't fall into pure stereotyping. I was in a weird position where I had some resentment, but at the same time was conscious of women's issues and would prefer to take position for women because the masculine examples that I had were ultra toxic.
  • Currently, I still have things to work through here.

One of the reasons that incels trigger me is because I experienced similar difficulties but maybe not to the same degree. Overall, I think that these people need serious psychological help/re-education.

 


Speaking into the void that sometimes answers back 

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On 11/09/2021 at 11:46 AM, Blackhawk said:

Why incels exists on this forum: because they exist everywhere.

Why incels exists: because of natural reasons. Women are naturally hardwired to be more selective, picky and demanding about their partner. It's not because of internet.

Yeah, I agree with you.

Edited by Tudo

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"An introvert is more likely to question reality and care about epistmeic issues due to them being in their heads a lot more. I do not expect your party jock to watch Leo's videos. It will be the intellectual nerd that will."

@Karmadhi You would think so, but i've actually met a few people who follow Leo in person and they were all pretty integrated, social, alpha-kinda guys. All male though. One guy was a total sports jock, the kinda all american kid you'd see as a football team captain who gets tons of pussy, and he does. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 3:40 PM, soos_mite_ah said:

Also @Etherial Cat @Tangerinedream @modmyth @Raphael @RendHeaven @Emerald @flowboy @aurum, I don't mean to put you on the spot but, I would love to hear some of yall's thoughts if yall have any. Specifically on the role of envy. 

My view is that the primary Shadow vibration that undergirds Leo and his audience is a feeling of inadequacy and lack of self love.

I don’t exempt anyone from his audience of this vibration. I also possess it. So it’s easy to spot.

Many people seek personal development to get away from not feeling good enough and feeling unlovable. 

And while Leo himself is not an Incel and he is consciously against the idea of Inceldom… he holds many of the same self-hating and hierarchical views that contribute to the philosophy of Inceldom.

Leo and Incels are both playing the same game. It’s just that Leo and many in his audience have a strong sense of self- efficacy and can keep themselves winning the game. So they perceive that they can win the game… while Incels don’t.

The women who hold this vibration on here tend to lead out into lots of ambition and intellect that never feels appreciated. We also play a similar game, though the rules are different. But it’s likewise a strong attempt to escape the feminine stigma and label of inferiority. We have also learned that we have to prove our lovability through what we do.

The men on here tend to push the feminine away from themselves in hopes of not succumbing to feelings of masculine inadequacy.

That’s why women on here are the recipients of the sexism which comes from a big collective chip on the shoulder of many of the men here… as there is a desperate attempt to banish the feminine in themselves. And this further aggravates the wounds in women associated with feeling under-appreciated, unlovable, and inferior… because they orient to us the way that they orient to their own feminine side.

And it is because the men here ( in varying degrees) feel unlovable and inferior and too feminine and not masculine enough. And when they see ambitious women who excel at the masculine, it makes them feel even more so inferior. 

But it’s really clear that it all roots down to lack of self-love in varying degrees… and a feeling that everyone is trying to out-masculine one another to get away from feelings of feminine inferiority.


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@Emerald I learned a lot from you. That post about masculinity and femininity going side by side really was a big eye-opener for me and I really try to integrate my feminine side and the importance of it. But I think you can be a little biased sometimes about Leo, I'm not really sure. I know that Leo doesn't use politically correct words but  I really think, even those he may not sound that way, he has his feminine side pretty integrated and he sees the values of it.

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37 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Leo and Incels are both playing the same game. It’s just that Leo and many in his audience have a strong sense of self- efficacy and can keep themselves winning the game. So they perceive that they can win the game… while Incels don’t.

I don't see this at all. Leo is far more integrated than whatever credit you give him.

Of course his advice to struggling men will be within the confines of the status quo social game.

You can't expect struggling men to "rise above" a crooked system while they're starved and hungry.

Leo's advice is tailored. Don't equate him to his advice.

We would see different advice from Leo if he were to answer the questions of a non-starving and fulfilled man.

Unfortunately, we just never see this happening because fulfilled men don't come crawling onto online forums for help.

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29 minutes ago, Tudo said:

@Emerald I learned a lot from you. That post about masculinity and femininity going side by side really was a big eye-opener for me and I really try to integrate my feminine side and the importance of it. But I think you can be a little biased sometimes about Leo, I'm not really sure. I know that Leo doesn't use politically correct words but  I really think, even those he may not sound that way, he has his feminine side pretty integrated and he sees the values of it.

I don’t see Leo’s feminine side as being very well integrated. He’s on a better foot than some because he understands the value of it in theory. But overall, he doesn’t value the feminine very much. 


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4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

I don't see this at all. Leo is far more integrated than whatever credit you give him.

Of course his advice to struggling men will be within the confines of the status quo social game.

You can't expect struggling men to "rise above" a crooked system while they're starved and hungry.

Leo's advice is tailored. Don't equate him to his advice.

We would see different advice from Leo if he were to answer the questions of a non-starving and fulfilled man.

Unfortunately, we just never see this happening because fulfilled men don't come crawling onto online forums for help.

But it’s this particular hierarchical viewpoint that leads men to starvation… one which Leo also subscribes to and perpetuates through his dating/relationship advice. 

I give Leo plenty of credit where it’s due. But this area is one where his lack of integration really comes through.


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Just now, RendHeaven said:

With regards to dating + relationships, or reality at large?

Both… but much more struggling within the realm of relationship. His entire viewpoint on relationships boils it all down to a zero-sum survival game.

This mono-viewpoint is very non-nuanced and the opposite of multi perspectival and leads to a resistance to human connection in general.

And holding and proliferating solely this viewpoint this will especially bring someone into resistance to their feminine side.


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