How much Theorie is needed for enlightenment ?

[Jannes]

I watched maybe about 40 hours about Enlightenment Theorie. A lot from Leo but also from different sources. My thought process was that this is enough to not fall into traps when doing self inquiry for enlightenment and anything extra doesn’t give you much because theorie is always false anyway so why should I waste my time with extra theorie when the actual insights can only come from direct experience so from exercises. But then in a recent video Leo said that any spiritual seeker should read at least 16 books about nonduality. So what now ? Is this really necessary ? If it’s needed I would do it but self inquiry sucks and the Theorie also isn’t that interesting to me so when I could leave this out I would have more time and motivation for self inquiry.

[Tim R]

In the end, no theory is necessary. Not only that, but you will have to shed all your theories and concepts about what awakening is. The purpose of theory in this work is to prepare you mind to be let go of. It's not your mind that will awaken, but that which has been clouded by the mind. 

 

[Jannes]

So would you say the purpose of this books is to crash the old theorie with a new theorie that is more loose. So then it becomes easier to crash that final theorie you read about because it is more loose ? Also isn’t it counter productive to read about theories if you are already invested in self inquiry or is it possible to not go a step backwards when I read with high awareness (not buy into it) ?

[Endangered-EGO]

@Jannes Better than learning a lot of theory, you probably should find a fully enlightened teacher who you can ask questions to, because you're going to dothings wrong, things are gonna happen and you're going to want to know what's happening.

As far as I am concerned the search for enlightenment is traps traps traps traps traps.

When I have questions for practice I ask in shinzen youngs mindfullness forum. When I have a question about enlightenment/metaphysics I just ask it here.

[The0Self]

It's referred to as removing a thorn with another thorn. But surprisingly, no theory or practice connects with enlightenment at all. Nothing does. Even the more obviously direct techniques such as looking for the looking -- that looking is the very same looking... I AM is an unbreakable, airtight illusion, because there's no illusion to break. If liberation happens (it's recognized there was only ever liberation), the illusion is apparently broken (since it never was real), but when that happens, it's clear that it happened for no apparent reason. The whole time I was single pointedly focused on enlightenment and truth, I was really only perpetuating myself -- doing my absolute best to prevent enlightenment, till the bitter end. It was the saddest and funniest event I could ever imagine.

Edited September 9, 2021 by The0Self

[Gesundheit2]

You can think of enlightenment as checkpoints rather than one endpoint.

There's not a single point where the road ends. There's always more light to absorb.

But of course, practice is a lot more important than the theory. Generally, the ratio should be something like 5% theory and 95% practice. Otherwise, it won't be as productive.

[Scholar]

The reason why theory is needed is because your mind only understands theory. The irony is that it requires a lot of theory to uncondition your mind into a territory of non-theory. Your mind is fundamentally a theorizer. It will theorize everything, and it will do so unconsciously, without even knowing that it is creating theory.

 

So, really the theory is like a pathway that is supposed to lead you to the cessation of all theory. It is like you are given a map that is supposed to lead you out of a labyrinth. A labyrinth which you are imagining. And all the map is supposed to do, is make you realize that in the end, you have imagined all of the labyrinth, and that all you need to do is stop imagining it, to free yourself from it.

[aurum]

3 hours ago, Jannes said:

But then in a recent video Leo said that any spiritual seeker should read at least 16 books about nonduality.

If you’re unwilling to read 16 books, you don’t have sufficient commitment to this path IMO.

That’s like the easiest part of this.

Much harder is actually contemplating all of it, facing your shadow, struggling with confusion, meditating for hours and hours, etc.

So in theory it’s maybe not necessary. You could be like Eckhart Tolle and just get struck by consciousness lightening. But that’s not realistic for most people. This work is very challenging and without a proper theoretical foundation, you can very easily go down a bad rabbit hole.

Also, people get into this work for real, they’re usually sucking down theory like there’s no tomorrow. So my assumption is that maybe you’re not quite ready to go so deep with this work. Which is fine. Everyone has this time.

[Mu_]

5 hours ago, Jannes said:

I watched maybe about 40 hours about Enlightenment Theorie. A lot from Leo but also from different sources. My thought process was that this is enough to not fall into traps when doing self inquiry for enlightenment and anything extra doesn’t give you much because theorie is always false anyway so why should I waste my time with extra theorie when the actual insights can only come from direct experience so from exercises. But then in a recent video Leo said that any spiritual seeker should read at least 16 books about nonduality. So what now ? Is this really necessary ? If it’s needed I would do it but self inquiry sucks and the Theorie also isn’t that interesting to me so when I could leave this out I would have more time and motivation for self inquiry.

Everyone is different, if you feel "good enough" for now with what you've learned then go with that, in time you may realize or find interest in reading more.  Is there something you feel drawn to that is a practice that seems to yield what your looking for?  

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Jannes Better than learning a lot of theory, you probably should find a fully enlightened teacher who you can ask questions to, because you're going to dothings wrong, things are gonna happen and you're going to want to know what's happening.

As far as I am concerned the search for enlightenment is traps traps traps traps traps.

When I have questions for practice I ask in shinzen youngs mindfullness forum. When I have a question about enlightenment/metaphysics I just ask it here.

Yeah that’s a good idea. Have you found an enlightened teacher and if so how ? Or do you think in the forums are enough enlightened people ?

 

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, The0Self said:

Ignore this I am just bad with technology

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

[Jannes]

3 hours ago, The0Self said:

It's referred to as removing a thorn with another thorn. But surprisingly, no theory or practice connects with enlightenment at all. Nothing does. Even the more obviously direct techniques such as looking for the looking -- that looking is the very same looking... I AM is an unbreakable, airtight illusion, because there's no illusion to break. If liberation happens (it's recognized there was only ever liberation), the illusion is apparently broken (since it never was real), but when that happens, it's clear that it happened for no apparent reason. The whole time I was single pointedly focused on enlightenment and truth, I was really only perpetuating myself -- doing my absolute best to prevent enlightenment, till the bitter end. It was the saddest and funniest event I could ever imagine.

So “you“ reached enlightenment ? 
 

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

The reason why theory is needed is because your mind only understands theory. The irony is that it requires a lot of theory to uncondition your mind into a territory of non-theory. Your mind is fundamentally a theorizer. It will theorize everything, and it will do so unconsciously, without even knowing that it is creating theory.

 

So, really the theory is like a pathway that is supposed to lead you to the cessation of all theory. It is like you are given a map that is supposed to lead you out of a labyrinth. A labyrinth which you are imagining. And all the map is supposed to do, is make you realize that in the end, you have imagined all of the labyrinth, and that all you need to do is stop imagining it, to free yourself from it.

That sounds very eye opening. I am definitely going to think about that.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

Everyone is different, if you feel "good enough" for now with what you've learned then go with that, in time you may realize or find interest in reading more.  Is there something you feel drawn to that is a practice that seems to yield what your looking for?  

I just do regular self inquiry and ask myself who is perceiving. When I feel very aware and my ego feels loose I switch to who am I. I also just started experimenting with Leo’s exercise list. The practice sucks, I always get extremely tired and I also felt confusion. So I think I am doing alright ?

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

If you’re unwilling to read 16 books, you don’t have sufficient commitment to this path IMO.

That’s like the easiest part of this.

Much harder is actually contemplating all of it, facing your shadow, struggling with confusion, meditating for hours and hours, etc.

So in theory it’s maybe not necessary. You could be like Eckhart Tolle and just get struck by consciousness lightening. But that’s not realistic for most people. This work is very challenging and without a proper theoretical foundation, you can very easily go down a bad rabbit hole.

Also, people get into this work for real, they’re usually sucking down theory like there’s no tomorrow. So my assumption is that maybe you’re not quite ready to go so deep with this work. Which is fine. Everyone has this time.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to make your process as comfortable as possible. This warrior spirit is ego too imo. But yeah I am like 80% commited because of 20% unintegrated stage orange stuff holding me back unconsciously. Is it necessary to be 100% commited though if I do my 1-2 hours of self inquiry with full 100% concentration and effort ?

[Jannes]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You can think of enlightenment as checkpoints rather than one endpoint.

There's not a single point where the road ends. There's always more light to absorb.

But of course, practice is a lot more important than the theory. Generally, the ratio should be something like 5% theory and 95% practice. Otherwise, it won't be as productive.

And the first big checkpoint is becoming permanently  aware that I am an illusion ? And after that comes god realization, infinity etc.

[The0Self]

54 minutes ago, Jannes said:

So “you“ reached enlightenment ? 
 

It apparently happened. I never reached it. There was never anyone who could. Can't stress that enough. The knowing of enlightenment is the absolute unknowing of everything. If that sounds special, it's a total illusion. It's a total loss but also a freedom. It's the end of all of your hopes and dreams, yet the dreams remain. Essentially, there is no enlightenment, because enlightenment is all there is already. So you never reach it.

Edited September 9, 2021 by The0Self

[aurum]

27 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to make your process as comfortable as possible. This warrior spirit is ego too imo. But yeah I am like 80% commited because of 20% unintegrated stage orange stuff holding me back unconsciously. Is it necessary to be 100% commited though if I do my 1-2 hours of self inquiry with full 100% concentration and effort ?

Commit whatever you can. If 1-2 hours a day of self-inquiry is what time you have, go for it. But also realize there may be a time when you want to commit more.

[mandyjw]

Follow your intuition, do as you like.

theory (n.)

1590s, "conception, mental scheme," from Late Latin theoria (Jerome), from Greek theōria "contemplation, speculation; a looking at, viewing; a sight, show, spectacle, things looked at," from theōrein "to consider, speculate, look at," from theōros "spectator," from thea "a view" (see theater) + horan "to see," which is possibly from PIE root *wer- (3) "to perceive."

Sit back and enjoy the show. 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

I just do regular self inquiry and ask myself who is perceiving. When I feel very aware and my ego feels loose I switch to who am I. I also just started experimenting with Leo’s exercise list. The practice sucks, I always get extremely tired and I also felt confusion. So I think I am doing alright ?

Ya thats as good as start as any One pointer I'll give you is, dont look for an object of "who" is perceiving, this is a trap of the mind that can happen.  Notice when there is looking for a "who" or an "object of what is perceiving, that perceiving is happening and innately aware of so.

When this starts to sink in and become natural so to say as in there is not a looking for a "who", but just comfortably sitting, not trying to be aware, just aware, the next mind trap is a voice of "ok now what or so what, big deal, what do I do with this, I want something out of being aware".  Just literally smile and let that pass.  This may be a good time to start reading more and listening to some new pointers or new stuff to try and cultivate.

But If you can just do sitting aware, it may become natural to notice thoughts and emotions more naturally and in doing so, the deceptions and victimization or strong anger attachments or feelings of deserving this or that, or expecting this or that, or fearing future possibilities that haven't happened or happened and no longer happen, will be seen as just thought and emotion patterns, and won't be as strong on the system.  But this is easier said than done, this takes some real inner strength and discipline to go through.   This is where a meditation practice is useful and helps both elevate consciousness in some sense and gives a place just to be with what comes and goes through the body.