The Movement Of Thought .

[Donald]

Just finished reading Krishnamurti's book and wanted to share some quotes that I got from him . If you don't know who this dude is , he was closely related to David Bohm and influenced Bohm in his works .Having read Bohm's books and works ,reading K is really so enjoyable . His insights are really helpful for anyone who is doing enlightenment work .

 

-"There is silence between two notes , between two thoughts , between two movements and so on . We are not talking about that quality of silence , because they are
temporary , they go away . We are speaking of silence that is not produced by thought , that is not cultivable , that comes only when you have understood the whole
movement of existence "

-"Thought cannot create psychological order because thought itself is disorder , because thought is based on knowledge , is based on experience .All knowledge is limited , and so thought is also limited , when thought tries to bring order , it brings about disorder.Thought has created disorder through the conflict between "what is" and "what should be" , the actual and the theoretical .Thought looks at the actual from a limited point of view .and therefore its action must inevitably create disorder."

-"Thought is movement in time because is the response of knowledge , experience , memory  is time . So thought can never be still .Thought can never be new "

-" If I force my mind to be still , through various tricks and practices , shocks then it is the stillness of a mind that has struggled with thought , controlled
thought , suppressed thought .That is entirely different from a mind which has seen the activity of the self , seen the movement of the thought as time "

-"When you see that , that thinker is the thought , the controller is the controlled , the observer is the observed , then there is no movement .One realizes anger is part of the observer who says ,"I am angry", so anger and the observer are the same. In the same way the thinker who want to controls thought is still thought .When one realizes that , the movement of thought stops "

[Vytas]

14 minutes ago, Donald said:

"Thought cannot create psychological order because thought itself is disorder , because thought is based on knowledge , is based on experience .All knowledge is limited , and so thought is also limited , when thought tries to bring order , it brings about disorder.Thought has created disorder through the conflict between "what is" and "what should be" , the actual and the theoretical .Thought looks at the actual from a limited point of view .and therefore its action must inevitably create disorder."

I noticed this to be very true. From human's trying to do things in order there only comes disorder. Good work with understanding the book. And of course thanks for the quotes

[Donald]

@Vytas This quotes are just the tip of the iceberg , in order to understand this topic better read the following : 

1 D.Bohm -Wholeness and Implicate Order 

2 D.Bohm -Thought as a system 

3 J.Krishnamurti- This light in oneself 

for me it's like a triology 

[Vytas]

@Donald thanks  will do. Currently I am reading Sadhguru's inner engineering

[Frogfucius]

@Donald I've been listening to Krishnamurti lately, and all I can say is that this dude is amazing! I really come to understanding, just by listening to him. Nothing is sugar coated, nothing is fancy or sexified, everything is completely no-bullshit. He ain't trying to sell you on some kind of dream or anything. I would recommend anyone interested in this whole spiritual thing to check him out. The more a teacher jabs your ego and un-glorifies enlightenment, the more effective they are.

[Wendelin]

Krishnamurti is great. When I first read that stuff like 12 years ago, I often didn`t understand what he means but it felt somehow right. Some of his insights helped me a lot to improve my relationship with my dad which was quite difficult back then.

Sadhguru claimed that he had his brain waves measured and in fact they did not record any activity. He also Claims that he can just think when he likes and have a quiet mind in the mean time. He states some days he has not a single thought. I don`t know if that is something enlightened People have in common.

 

[Frogfucius]

@Wendelin Krisnhamurti said that the moment you stop thinking, you drop dead. 

He's right. As long as you're experience sensations, you're experiencing thought. Want to experience what no thought is like? Go into a deep sleep. But that's not really an experience - it's emptiness. Closing your eyes and seeing black and just "being" there, without sleep, is an experience.

That's not to say you can't focus on certain activities or sensations within your body. But focus, itself, is a thought.

[Wendelin]

@Frogfucius You can experience Moments of no thought between two thoughts even if the Moments are short. And if they are there you can also learn to extend These Moments. So I don`t think this Statement is correct. That refers to I think therfore I am. Enlightened beings say I am therefore I might think...

in my experience Focus is not necessarily a thought. Because it Comes first. You Focus on something (that might be random or unconscious) and a thought arises. And can you Focus on a thought? Yes you can. Does that mean there is a thought about a thought and both Happening at the same time? I think that is not the case. So I disagree from experience, your life on earth is not depending on an endless chain of thoughts.

 

I do not say this is right this is wrong, but my experience says that the Focus of awareness and thoughts are different

 

[Frogfucius]

@Wendelin You wouldn't be a human being if you didn't think. Our survival depends on our ability to think. An altered state of consciousness is not permanent. Enlightened people "not thinking" is just a story told to glorify it somehow. Being aware of a thought, or aware of a sensation is still a thought.

We don't even really know what a thought is. This is only mental gymnastics. Why is so-called "no thought" a good thing? Why do people want to "not think"? Why does it matter if your mind is still or not?

[Wendelin]

@Frogfucius

23 minutes ago, Frogfucius said:

You wouldn't be a human being if you didn't think. Our survival depends on our ability to think. An altered state of consciousness is not permanent. Enlightened people "not thinking" is just a story told to glorify it somehow. Being aware of a thought, or aware of a sensation is still a thought.

We don't even really know what a thought is. This is only mental gymnastics. Why is so-called "no thought" a good thing? Why do people want to "not think"? Why does it matter if your mind is still or not?

of Course every human being is able to have thoughts and our survival depends on it that is also correct. Enlightened People also think thats also right. You can do a Little Experiment. Just ask yourself a question like: From where will my next thought arise? Or: What Color has my next thought? The Little confusion that bringts leaves a short Moment of no thought.

I do not glorify "no thought" that is for sure not a worthwhile goal. You surely want to use this as a tool. No thought is not good nor bad, it is just possible. Someone being able to Control the mind chatter and use the mind  exactly to the Point, that would be for sure helpful (but very difficult to attain)

If your brain behaves like punching on the keybord of your Computer hard with the whole Hand and not sensible with the right fingers it will not Spill out what you want. So brain is probably something you can master, but for most human beings it is not really controllable. While Meditation some People seem to have less Problems with their monkey mind than others. So there seem to be at least variations.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Wendelin

[Donald]

@Wendelin K is great but if you give his works to the average "actualized" dude they will not understand it , it will seem dull , slow and repetitive. (Had experienced myself before)

[Frogfucius]

@Wendelin I see what you mean. Stray thoughts do happen and are uncontrollable. "Enlightenment" as the term we use is to disassociate meaning from them, completely detach yourself from thought. Maybe they'll crop up less over time, but will still be there but given no mind. Just like emotions. You can feel them, but without giving them meaning, there's nothing really there to attach yourself to.

There's nothing wrong with mind chatter. It's completely normal. Just don't listen to it.

[Donald]

@Wendelin K is great but if you give his works to the average "actualized" dude they will not understand it , it will seem dull , slow and repetitive. (Had experienced myself before)

@Frogfucius You are right , there has been given so much importance to the "no thought" state of mind , which is is why enlightenment sounds sexy and romantic. It is just a de-conditioning, you stop seeing yourself as a separate entity  , that's it .The sky is still gonna have clouds after you "become" it . Shit will happen after you "reach" it , thoughts will arise , anger and emotions. The only "difference " is that you don't register the shit in your brain . 

If we say thinking and thoughts, we must say also feeling and felts ( just use that word ) . Now feeling is something which is based on direct experience , right ? But when you register it in your brain, it becomes a "felt" . Now next time when you will have again the same direct experience, your little brain will go boom mechanically , giving you the feeling which you had before. So your doing things mechanically. That's why all the " enlightened " folks keep on saying things like : "knowledge  is limited "bla bla . Thoughts and feelings are the same thing the influence one another. 

 

[Wendelin]

http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/yoga-meditation/demystifying-yoga/thought-or-being-deepak-chopra-in-conversation-with-sadhguru/

 

Moderator: It’s a real privilege to be here, and what’s interesting is that both these amazing people have come to this whole topic of wisdom from very different perspectives. Dr. Chopra comes at this as a doctor, scientist, and a very eloquent seeker. Sadhguru comes at it as a mystic, as someone who has sort of seen some of the unknowable and has come to us with a whole bunch of knowledge from that angle.

Has your own thinking changed a lot over time? Can you both take that question?

Deepak Chopra: It’s a great honor to meet you again, Sadhguru, after all these years. I remember playing frisbee with you in Puerto Rico. So yeah, my thinking has changed in the sense that when I started moving out of mainstream, so-called scientific thinking, I was trying to establish in my mind the connection between mind and body. And over the last four decades, I have realized, which has been obvious to great sages throughout the centuries, that there’s no system of thought that can access truth or reality. Whether it’s a scientific system of thought, a mathematical system of thought, or quantum physics – none of these systems of thought can give us the experience of reality, because reality is beyond thought.

Reality is inconceivable to the mind. These systems of thought – even scientific ones – create only models of reality, not reality. And we have faith in them because once we understand the model, we can create technology. We can create jet planes, bombs, and mechanized death, Internet, and all the wonderful things. We think science gives us access to reality, but even science is an activity in something that is not mind, that is not matter. For lack of a better word, it’s a field of awareness – it’s what the great sages call brahman. The universe is a modified form of that. Your mind, your body, and the universe out there are all conceived, constructed, and governed by a non-local, inconceivable, dimensionless reality that is not in space and time.

This is very difficult for the modern person to grasp. But since we are talking about ancient wisdom traditions, if you read the Yoga Vashishta [an ancient Indian text], it says brahman is that which cannot be seen but without which there is no seeing, that which cannot be perceived but without which there is no perception, that which cannot be imagined but without which there is no imagination, creativity, insight, intuition, choice. Everything that we call “reality” comes from an inconceivable, dimensionless, non-local domain, which is not in space-time. You know, when Lord Krishna talks about it – “water cannot wet it; wind cannot dry it; weapons cannot shatter it; fire cannot burn it: it’s ancient, it’s unborn, it’s not subject to death.” That’s inconceivable to the mind, but it’s experiential when you settle into awareness, when you settle into being, when you settle into existence, which is called as satchitananda or tatvamasi. That’s not an intellectual experience – that’s a transcendent experience. I’ll stop there.

Moderator: Sadhguru, you come at it from knowing. Tell us how your own thinking has changed.

Sadhguru: I cannot say much about thought because most of the time, I don’t have much thought. For me, the phenomenon of life that is happening within me always overwhelms everything else. Thought occurs to me only when I want to physically do something or arrange something around me – otherwise, days on end will pass for me without a single thought. People ask me, “What has been your sadhana?” My only sadhana has been that right from my childhood, I never got identified with anything – neither with the family nor the culture, religion, society, or any other things around me. Whether it was my parents or my siblings – I was involved with them but never identified with anyone or anything.

Thinking is just a recycling of the data that you have already gathered. If you get it right now, your life will transform in ways that you can’t imagine possible.

If your intelligence does not tie itself down with identity, every human being is capable of realizing the nature of life. When I say intelligence, as Deepak pointed out, it is beyond the thought process. Unfortunately, because of the type of education systems we have today, we are completely committed to one dimension of our intelligence, which we call intellect, which is just the thought process. Thought can only happen with the data that you have gathered through the five senses, which is very limited. Another thing is the nature of data that the senses gather is only useful for survival. The very nature of how you see things, how you hear, smell, taste, and touch life, is only relevant for survival. If you want to know life itself, then these instruments of perception are no good.

Nature has opened up our sense perception as it is necessary for our survival. Similarly, it has opened up sense perceptions for different creatures as it is necessary for their survival. If survival is all you are seeking, the five senses are good enough. But once you have come as a human being, somehow survival is not good enough. If your stomach is empty, there’s only one issue – food. But once the stomach becomes full, you have a hundred issues going on. The nature of the human being is such, no matter what you do, you want to be something more than what you are right now. And if that “something more” happens, again you will want something more – it’s an endless pursuit. Somewhere, a human being is seeking limitless expansion but trying to do it with physical means.

The very nature of physicality is a defined boundary. If there is no defined boundary, there is no possibility of anything physical happening in the universe. But now, a human being is longing for the boundless – that too in installments, and through physical means. Through the boundary, you are trying to become boundless. The desire is fantastic, the method is hopeless, because the moment you identify with something, your intellect works to protect that identity. Whatever you identify yourself with – whether it is a nation, family, gender, race, religion, or anything else – your intellect will only function around this identity. Any identity is a certain type of prejudice. So the one thing I did is, I never identified myself with anything, and life exploded within me in ways that thoughts seem so puny that I do not indulge in them most of the time.

Thinking is just a recycling of the data that you have already gathered. If you get it right now, your life will transform in ways that you can’t imagine possible. Otherwise, some day, you will get it from the maggots. Then you will see you don’t belong to anything!