Thoughts and Feelings

[Gianna]

Do thoughts reflect feelings or do feelings reflect thoughts? Which starts the cycle? I realize that this could be a chicken and an egg problem... because both feed into each other. But from what I understand about shadow work, certain feelings and emotions can get trapped in the body and trigger automatic responses from the mind (the responses you crafted for survival as a kid). Then with techniques like Byron Katie's The Work, you can simply change the thought/perception and it will change the accompanying feeling. But is this an avoidance strategy? Are you really working with the emotion– processing the feelings– by merely changing the thought? Or are you not really developing awareness around the feeling by doing this? I guess I am asking this question to better understand the contents of consciousness and their mechanism. 

[undeather]

Well, thats something you could easily test for yourself

Here is some important literature on that - read that book and then test the hypothesis with direct experience.
Us telling you is pretty useless because it will remain in the domain of second hand knowledge.
 

Edited August 8, 2021 by undeather

[Goldzilla]

Thought is first, as a pontential. The chaos if you wish. 

[RickyFitts]

37 minutes ago, Gianna said:

Do thoughts reflect feelings or do feelings reflect thoughts? Which starts the cycle? 

Great question, I tried to figure that one out for years without ever really getting to the bottom of it. Now you've got me thinking about it, it seems to me that feeling must precede thought, just on the basis that we've always been able to feel, but we haven't always been able to think. Maybe that's too simplistic though.

[Gianna]

6 minutes ago, RickyFitts said:

on the basis that we've always been able to feel, but we haven't always been able to think. Maybe that's too simplistic though.

Ooooo very interesting! I love that take on it. The simplest answer is usually the most profound. I find that here! 

[Gianna]

@undeather Thank you! I agree with you. The best way to know, is to know myself. I'm going to check this book out right now!

[WelcometoReality]

@Gianna A feeling can "trigger" several thoughts. By letting go of the feeling we also deal with the thoughts that was triggered by it.

47 minutes ago, Gianna said:

Do thoughts reflect feelings or do feelings reflect thoughts? Which starts the cycle? I realize that this could be a chicken and an egg problem... because both feed into each other.

Yeah, It's both. We can trigger fear by thinking of public speaking for example and the fear will trigger new thoughts like "I can't" with the accompanying feeling apathy.

Fear can also be triggered by doing public speaking.

56 minutes ago, Gianna said:

But from what I understand about shadow work, certain feelings and emotions can get trapped in the body and trigger automatic responses from the mind (the responses you crafted for survival as a kid). Then with techniques like Byron Katie's The Work, you can simply change the thought/perception and it will change the accompanying feeling. But is this an avoidance strategy? Are you really working with the emotion– processing the feelings– by merely changing the thought? Or are you not really developing awareness around the feeling by doing this?

There's probably several ways of doing shadow work but what is the "problem". Is it the thought of public speaking or is it the fear of public speaking? 

So why not deal with the root of the problem  directly. 

[James12345]

@Gianna feeling is a thought itself. If you dont think or have a thought process, what will be feeling?

[RickyFitts]

3 hours ago, Gianna said:

The simplest answer is usually the most profound.

So true 

[RickyFitts]

An Eckhart Tolle quote came to mind in relation to this thread, and I think it's worthy of consideration:

Quote

If you really want to know your mind, the body will always give you a truthful reflection, so look at the emotion, or rather feel it in your body. If there is an apparent conflict between them, the thought will be the lie, the emotion will be the truth.

I think we humans have such a strong tendency to turn away from what feels uncomfortable and to escape to the apparent safety of thinking that we often end up in denial of our true feelings. Becoming aware of these feelings can be distressing and upsetting, but it's so important, I believe, where spiritual growth is concerned.

[eputkonen]

@Gianna It is not a matter of changing thought, but understanding.  From understanding (or misunderstanding, as the case may be) our actions and reactions arise (including thoughts and feelings).  Thoughts will give rise to feelings, feelings will give rise to thoughts, thoughts will give rise to other thoughts, feelings will give rise to other feelings...but it all arises from understanding.  Byron Katie gives a process for flipping things around in order to better understand.  If you are using her steps to avoid or spiritual bypass, you have missed the point of what you are doing.

Edited August 8, 2021 by eputkonen

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Here is my personal theory (work in progress!): 

Emotions are the seeds of thoughts (and basically everything else in your life). Imagine your being as a garden. Depending on how you treat that garden you get different flowers. If you abandon and neglect your garden it turns into a dark and chaotic place full of weeds, thorny bushes and creepy crawly things. If you take good care of your garden you'll get beautiful flowers, sweet apples and happy birds.

An emotion can give rise to several thoughts. Thoughts can't cause emotions per se, they can only lead/point you to their root/seed. Your heart always finds a way to reach you. If you run away from your feelings they might start manifesting in your head as words and images. It's almost like your emotions are water running through a clogged pipe. If the water can't find it's way through the pipe it will burst out of its side. If the emotions can't reach you through your feelings they will manifest as thoughts. If you get negative thoughts, that's because your mind is trying to point you towards some deeper emotion. You can inspect that emotion by feeling into the thoughts. Feel the thought in its entirety and feel what it's trying to tell you. Listen with your intuition.

All of this becomes more apparent when you look at something like positive affirmations. Positive affirmations only work in conjunction with an emotion. If you simply keep repeating words in your head you won't get anywhere. You have to feel into the words. Feel into your desire. Feel into your love. That's what manifests reality.

So you can start sowing different seeds by starting to feel into emotions. A daily gratitude practice is a good example of this. By deeply feeling into your gratitude on a daily basis, you start to grow flowers (thoughts) of gratitude and love and abundance. You can do other things like forgiveness, peace and so on. That will help you clean up your thoughts a little.

The point is that you can't change emotions purely through thoughts, because thoughts are a manifestation of your emotional energies. I'll repeat it: FEELING into thoughts it essential!

But all of this is just my personal experience.

A great metaphor for what I mean is the following: Right now, become aware of your feet and the sensations you feel in them. Were you aware of these sensations before I told you to become aware of it? Probably not since you were busy reading this. But I did not CAUSE the feeling. I just pointed it out to you. The same goes for thoughts and feelings. They just point you towards emotions you are currently unaware of. They can get distorted in the process, like lets' say when someone close to you hurts you. You might avoid that pain by thinking thoughts like: "I can't believe they did this to me, how could I trust them?". Instead feel into the thoughts and face that pain head on. Face the part of you that is using the thoughts as a means of escape. Face the pain that you are running away from. Don't fight it. Love it! Embrace it. Surrender to it. Let it speak. Let it say what it has to say. Let it bring forth the memories it wants to show you. Memories of past hurt. Of past trauma.

Edited August 8, 2021 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[Leo Gura]

It works both ways. It is a mistake to think that only one causes the other. They are fundamentally entangled.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It works both ways. It is a mistake to think that only one causes the other. They are fundamentally entangled.

When I observe my thoughts I can see that there are subtle feelings behind all the thoughts. It's like waves emerging from an ocean of very subtle emotions. I fail to see how a thought can arise from outside of this "ocean". Is it because cause and effect are relative constructs, or is there another explanation?

Edited August 9, 2021 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[Willie]

What would thinking without feeling look like?

What would feeling without thinking look like?

[DrewNows]

We like to separate emotion from feeling because feeling tends to be a vibrational state of mind that can be situational/environmental. Emotion and thought are either produced or received, and they typically run off each other 

many people can have multiple systems running at the same time, being here and there, everywhere, open to receive, create and respond 

it’s fascinating how some minds work or how our minds can tune to on certain frequency levels

its all energy 

[Gianna]

21 hours ago, RickyFitts said:

I think we humans have such a strong tendency to turn away from what feels uncomfortable and to escape to the apparent safety of thinking that we often end up in denial of our true feelings

This is so well said! Spot on. Thank you for sharing your contemplation and its link to Tolle's quote! Super insightful. 

20 hours ago, eputkonen said:

Thoughts will give rise to feelings, feelings will give rise to thoughts, thoughts will give rise to other thoughts, feelings will give rise to other feelings...but it all arises from understanding.

Wow. This is so incredibly beautiful and helpful. It really helps me to understand Bryon Katie's Work. But it helps me understand much more than that– it helps me understand understanding itself! Lol! And its influence over thoughts and feelings. It makes me think that Understanding is like Consciousness; as soon as you shine understanding/consciousness onto something, it brings Truth to light.  

[Gianna]

17 hours ago, Willie said:

What would thinking without feeling look like?

What would feeling without thinking look like?

Woah  Super interesting contemplation. Brings it to light. 

[RickyFitts]

2 hours ago, Gianna said:

This is so well said! Spot on. Thank you for sharing your contemplation and its link to Tolle's quote! Super insightful.

You're very welcome, thanks for the thought-provoking thread