How does spiral dynamics factor into relationships?

[peqkno]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:39 PM, peqkno said:

Some other things I came across:

https://www.integralpsychology.org/integral-relationships.html

https://www.integralpsychology.org/uploads/1/5/3/0/15300482/compatibility_matrix.pdf

^-- This model might be an oversimplication, but it seemed on topic. (This uses Ken Wilber's Integral color codes)
 

from:

 

[Vzdoh]

8 minutes ago, peqkno said:

^-- This model might be an oversimplication, but it seemed on topic. (This uses Ken Wilber's Integral color codes)
 

from:

 

Yep. Exactly how i feel. Orange to a lesser degree, but good match with green - feeling sometimes like a mentor. My BF is Green.

1 hour ago, SS10 said:

@Leo Gura I am sure a stage green girl and a stage orange guy would be able to have a functional relationship.

[Gesundheit2]

@Vzdoh Relationships is a survival game. It's all about exchanging values. At tier two, it becomes exactly like politics. As a tier two government, you can have international relationships with pretty much any other government from any level of development, and without much problems.

The same thing applies to tier two interpersonal relationships. You know what the other person wants/needs/values, but you pretend as if you don't know. Similar to wearing a mask, but not quite the same, because you're not actually faking a persona that isn't authentic to you, you're just consciously choosing what parts of yourself you want this person to see, and hiding the rest that they can't handle from them. It's like dealing with asleep people and being careful not to wake them up. That could be tricky if you're an extrovert and want to have as many relationships as you can, though.

2 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

What level do u think you are in? 

I'm at Orange, and I pretty much don't have any problems with the previous stages, but in general I despise the people from the later stages, yet not much the stages themselves or their values, just the people playing at those stages, because they're mostly immature and disgusting. That being said, I don't take SD as a religion. It's just a model, and I have certain disagreements with it.

When it comes to relationships, generally speaking, I don't care about the values other people hold as much as how they're affecting me with them. For example, I don't care if someone likes smoking, but I hate the smell of cigarettes. I don't care if a person does psychedelics, but I hate how they go out and scream: "I am God! I am God!". I also don't care if people have a certain religion that they practice, or how neurotic they may be as long as they're not pushing it on me.

Quote

for that person it will take years if not decades to get where I am. And I just don't want to waste my time

Looks like a sneaky judgement.

Have you considered that maybe it's the other way around? Maybe you're the one who will take years if not decades to get to where they are at? Maybe you're just not willing to let go of judgments and then go meet people at where they're at because you feel comfortable with the current worldviews that you're holding? After all, why does anyone have to change their values to match yours? What's wrong with having different values? Are their values actually inferior to yours? That could be an Orange shadow that could be integrated.

Also, you don't have to change people or invest in trying to achieve that in any way (Blue shadow). I know you didn't explicitly state that you want to change others, but somehow I get that vibe.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Vzdoh]

43 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Vzdoh Relationships is a survival game. It's all about exchanging values. At tier two, it becomes exactly like politics. As a tier two government, you can have international relationships with pretty much any other government from any level of development, and without much problems.

The same thing applies to tier two interpersonal relationships. You know what the other person wants/needs/values, but you pretend as if you don't know. Similar to wearing a mask, but not quite the same, because you're not actually faking a persona that isn't authentic to you, you're just consciously choosing what parts of yourself you want this person to see, and hiding the rest that they can't handle from them. It's like dealing with asleep people and being careful not to wake them up. That could be tricky if you're an extrovert and want to have as many relationships as you can, though.

Dear, I am behaving like that - hiding most of myself with friends and family - because I can't fully be myself and show myself and where I am. U r suggesting settling for the same dynamic in the most intimate relationship as well? The relationship that over years contributes the most to either your degradation or personal growth? R u kidding? I will then have no way of fully expressing myself and growing. Only stage Orange can suggest this as this kind of behavior seems OK - justifies the need to be in a relationship. Orange - the wanted result justifies any means necessary. 

For me it's not an option. The most intimate relationship I want to be the most vulnerable and open where I do not need to hide any part of myself. And that is possible only with people from your own SD level or 1 level lower if they want to grow.

43 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I'm at Orange, and I pretty much don't have any problems with the previous stages, but in general I despise the people from the later stages, yet not much the stages themselves or their values, just the people playing at those stages, because they're mostly immature and disgusting. That being said, I don't take SD as a religion. It's just a model, and I have certain disagreements with it.

When it comes to relationships, generally speaking, I don't care about the values other people hold as much as how they're affecting me with them. For example, I don't care if someone likes smoking, but I hate the smell of cigarettes. I don't care if a person does psychedelics, but I hate how they go out and scream: "I am God! I am God!". I also don't care if people have a certain religion that they practice, or how neurotic they may be as long as they're not pushing it on me.

I do not hate these people or their expressions, because I understand both the person and his expression is coming from the level of development. I embraced fully this fact and yes sometimes it is annoying like a mosquito or a fly on the wall, but not more...

43 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Looks like a sneaky judgment.

Have you considered that maybe it's the other way around? Maybe you're the one who will take years if not decades to get to where they are at? Maybe you're just not willing to let go of judgments and then go meet people at where they're at because you feel comfortable with the current worldviews that you're holding? After all, why does anyone have to change their values to match yours? What's wrong with having different values? Are their values actually inferior to yours? That could be an Orange shadow that could be integrated.

Where exactly I have expressed the judgments of others? U r now judging me. I clearly said that majority of people I meet are at other SD levels with who I do not share common values. Where is judgement in this? Have I mentioned even once that I want someone to change their world view? On a contrary I said I accept their different world views and think it is futile to try and change it because my perspective won't be understood anyways. Seems like somehow u reading opposite of what I stated. I did not say that other stages views are inferior to mine. They are just what they are, not multi-dimensional, not multi-perspective...its normally one way view which is not good or bad, its simply incomplete. 

43 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Also, you don't have to change people or invest in trying to achieve that in any way (Blue shadow). I know you didn't explicitly state that you want to change others, but somehow I get that vibe.

 

You r reading what I write on here in exact opposite. I don't know how u do it, but its appalling to read about "the vibe" when I stated exactly the opposite to it. :)))))))

 

[universe]

Don't think about it too much.

It's a distraction.

You are already in an intimate relationship with everyone. You are just not aware of it yet.

[Spiral]

Let’s say you are stage orange and your partner is stage green and they’re all about that karpmans drama triangle it’s probably gonna be awful. But if they are into animal rights and the environment it’s probably alright. 
 

If you are stage yellow and they are blue I reckon they’ll be more annoyed at you than the other way around.

[Farnaby]

Don't we all have traits from many different stages? 

I think higher, more intellectual stages can learn a lot from more animalistic/instinctive stages and the other way around.

Viewing relationships through this lens can be risky IMO, because you stop seeing the person as a complex being and impose a label on them that clouds what you are able to perceive. 

I've fallen into this trap of considering myself more developed and rational than people who mainly like to drink and party, for example. I was secretely judging them (and creating a shadow around my own desire to party) instead of allowing myself to experiment that kind of hedonism. 

[Vzdoh]

17 minutes ago, universe said:

Don't think about it too much.

It's a distraction.

You are already in an intimate relationship with everyone. You are just not aware of it yet.

Oh yeah! ????

[SS10]

5 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

Go watch Leo's videos on stage orange and green. U r funny! 

At Tony Robbins DWD event we had SD stages played by people embodying these stages. Stage Orange had the most clash with Green ?????

@Vzdoh Most people are not pure green or orange. Within our society most people are a blend of the two. A healthy stage orange man with a bit of green and a healthy stage green woman would work, that's how most relationships are. I feel we need to stray away from the idea that a stage orange person is just some evil greedy material capitalist and a stage green person is just some bleeding heart liberal. 

[RickyFitts]

5 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

Its similar to a co dependent relationship. If u get in with a co dependent partner, it will take u much much more effort to stay healthy and not get sucked into your partner's codependent ways. 

No kidding, I let myself get sucked into a codependent relationship a few years back and it just wasn't workable, I had to end it for the sake of my own wellbeing. Not a mistake I'll make twice, that's for sure.

[Ilan]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A relationship can only last among parties of like values. Each Spiral stage is a different values set. The most important factor in a relationship is alignment of core values. If your values are not aligned, forget about it. Relationships are nearly impossible even when your values align, nevermind when they don't.

Blue and Green would quickly devolve into a toxic clusterfuck.

Spiral Dynamics is very useful for screening out incompatible partners.

Does one girl compatible with you exist ?

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, SS10 said:

@Leo Gura I am sure a stage green girl and a stage orange guy would be able to have a functional relationship.

One stage apart is manageable. Two stages apart is not.

But even so, eventually the relationship would blow up unless the Orange was wiling to grow into Green.

The problem is especially bad when one is stuck in a stage and refuses to grow any higher, or even demonizes the higher stages.

[SS10]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

One stage apart is manageable. Two stages apart is not.

But even so, eventually the relationship would blow up unless the Orange was wiling to grow into Green.

The problem is especially bad when one is stuck in a stage and refuses to grow any higher, or even demonizes the higher stages.

And... when a person of a higher stage looks down at people at lower stages and judges and condemns them.

[Ilan]

1 minute ago, SS10 said:

And... when a person of a higher stage looks down at people at lower stages and judges and condemns them.

A person of lower stage is more likely to demonize the one of higher stage than the person of higher stage is likely to demonize the one of lower stage.

[Gesundheit2]

@Vzdoh Maybe I'm just a stupid Orange.

[SS10]

2 minutes ago, Ilan said:

A person of lower stage is more likely to demonize the one of higher stage than the person of higher stage is likely to demonize the one of lower stage.

True to a certain degree, however people from stage blue to stage green aren't so dissimilar in terms of basic ego dynamics

[Marcel]

@Farnaby Exactly, as i stated in the description of this topic, i just assumed that one person is just blue and the other one is just green. 

That is of course not how it works and we all are basically living in multiple stages at once, or have integrated them if you are tier 2.

I just oversimplified it, for the sake of the argument.

[tsuki]

Instead of thinking about models that deal with abstractions, I would suggest to notice the "real" deal in front of you, the person you are in a relationship with. This will give you highest success rate, regardless of any color combination. Make them happy in the best way you possibly can and trust that they will reciprocate. It does not get any simpler than that.

[Marcel]

@tsuki

I Absolutely agree, im not taking spiral dynamics as a definite measure for relationships, it is a model after all.

This was just a thought experiment i had in mind and looking at this thread, i guess i got some valuable insight out of it, that does not mean that i now stop talking to or do not  try to interact with any given stage anymore, but its pretty interesting to have an abstraction like spiral dynamics that can function as some sort of indicator or framework to work with.  ( Of course, the Map is still not the territory, thanks for the reminder ) 

But In the end, as Leo always says, direct experience is king and i´d argue that it will probably always stay that way.

[Esilda]

On 07/08/2021 at 7:18 PM, Marcel said:

Are certain stages just not compatible with each other? 

Lets take stage blue and stage green, ( Im assuming that one is solidly embodying blue and the other one  is solidly embodying green, im aware that its much more complicated and nuanced than that ) 

Would they be able to hold up an intimate relationship or are the differences just to great?

Would they be able complement each other, or would the difference in stages be a division factor?

Which of course always depends on the people involved as well, there are a ton of  factors that go into answering this question i suppose.

 

 

So I only just started learning about spiral dynamics yesterday but I've been drawing some connections!

To me, it seems like what matters is simply other kinds of strengths vs weaknesses, especially if we consider their past relationship experiences. Many people can stay together simply because they've stayed together for a long time even though they may be incompatible on spiral dynamics for example but because they have that shared history if they both are sentimental they'll put up with each other's differences in as much as that sentimentality isn't broken.

As for two new people, other than obvious areas of compatibility we could look at we just never know what kinds of bonding experiences we could have with people.

Real life bonding experiences (i.e. sexual stuff) are overrated though in my opinion because they can get us to become attached to a person that we're not even that very similar to with the release of brain chemicals that comes from those bonding experiences.

So yeah@Marcel I think so, at least certainly in the short and medium term, for the long term there would be conflicts but there's just so many things that can make us stay in relationships that aren't right for us even though there aren't enough similarities or complementary attributes like within the spiral.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Esilda