Carl-Richard

Post- Dunning-Kruger depression

39 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

You realize that you weren't as smart, developed or awake as you thought you were, and now when the false sense of security is ripped away from under your feet, you feel extremely inadequate. Has anybody experienced this before? One time? Many times? Progressively or sporadically? What triggered it? For me, it seems to be a phase that has been building up over time.

What were one time you felt very dumb in retrospect?

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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@Carl-Richard 

47 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What were one time you felt very dumb in retrospect?

One time? Ha😂

Happens every now and then, sometimes more "severely" than other times, but I've learned to accept and love myself when it happens (which was not easy and certainly didn't happen over night). I know that I'm a fool and that I don't know infinitely more things than I think I do know, and when I make mistakes or say utterly stupid things, I know that it's okay. (I still of course try not to do it unnecessarily😅)

I'm  therefore not ashamed to ask people to explain things to me, which to them might seem completely obvious - turns out that if you're being honest about this with yourself and the other person, they will (if they are not totally underdeveloped) feel this honesty and integrity and explain things to you or correct you without making you feel ashamed for not knowing or understanding. 

Whether this is about "not knowing things or not being as awake as you thought you'd be" makes no difference, you're a fool anyway. Understanding that will set you free. You're a fool anyway.

One of my absolutely favorite quotes in this regard is from Alan Watts:

"Freedom means the freedom to make mistakes — the freedom to be a damn fool."

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Yeah, it happens fairly often. And I'm guessing it will happen again in future, learning happens slower than we tend to think.

It's nothing to worry about, you're already Home.


Alternative Rock Music and Spirituality on YouTube: The Buddha Visions

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Yeah

The more wrong you are the worse it gets.

Ego hates to realize it's been horribly wrong. Which is what we see driving the entire Republican party right now.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Definitely experienced this. What kept me going was a sense that I will be better the longer I stay in the game.

Self-love is very important too, you are at this place in time because you have had limited experiences. You cannot be anywhere else. You are doing good right now even if it seems that doing that is not enough.


"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”

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Just take a broader view.

Sure, there are millions of people smarter and better than you in every way.  But there are also millions far dumber than you.

No matter how smart or dumb you are, it's meaningless.  The more you zoom out the more meaningless it gets.

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25 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

No matter how smart or dumb you are, it's meaningless.

It is, but the experience of it is real, and my experience of it has changed over time. Just curious if other people have had the same experience (of essentially escaping the Dunning Kruger effect and feeling the ramifications of it first-hand).


To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

It is, but the experience of it is real

Well, I'll leave you to it then.

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Posted (edited)

It's not so much escaping the kreuger-dunning effect as it is the movement along the competency increase and the shift in correlation to confidence, where confidence drops as you start realizing that you know less than you thought you did, and the more competent you get the more humble you are to the understanding that you know nothing, and confidence or lack of doubt in self once again shifts. 

If you explain this via kreuger-dunning effect or not doesn't matter, but it can give comfort and relievement of suffering in the process.

The gaining of understanding of that the only thing you can know is the not knowing and only having current beliefs, and that you are better off being proven having incorrect or incolmplete knowledge which in itself is the basis for accelerating learning and understanding, as well as the regaining of competency and relievement of that depressing state.

That depressing state being nothing but the bruising of the ego and deserve little attention not to get stuck for a more extended time than necessary. 

The newly found confidence is very different, flexible, humble and empowering compared to the previous confidence that was ridgid, dogmatic and demonstrative. 

Looking at this as the unfolding it is, you see the correlation between this and development as a phonomenon, and how that depressive state is what so many get stuck in for the rest of their lives, being consumed by the suffering and pain created by the realization that you essentially were fake, wearing a mask, putting on a façade, but bring unable to find the path forward out of despair. 

That realization hurts, but it's also the most important realization representing a monumental threshold in development and the moving past it, somewhat of a developmental quantum leap.

Needless to say, yes, have been through that valley of despair, and it really is a beautiful thing although hard to appreciate until you can look back at the beauty and complexity of it from a newly found, different, outlook point. 

Edited by Eph75

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 It may seem like the mind has a structural interface, logical orders that we're capable of comprehending to their depths and at the heights of that comprehension, there is a sense of safety and security via the repeated exposure to our successful adaptations to the environment. It is the grasping at security though that will inevitably create insecurity, the desire to comprehend and supersede past comprehensions however is what will move us into previously invisible vistas that enable us to see our past consciousness as mere old clothing in our wardrobe. It is what will enable us to see that the idea of seeing all states as doorways, portals and windows is something that cannot be merely thought but is what ultimately needs to be experienced on an energetic level in order to truly understand.

Understanding, must be understood as something that exists beyond merely the intellect.

The goal is no goal that doesn't lead to resonance with inner alignment in this sense. It is strange, that the mere combination of inner connection up and down the energetic lines that make the perception of beingness possible is what makes understanding of what is true in reality more possible than the mere goal of intellectual understanding.

Not strange though, when we put in context the psychological anatomy that make up our perception of the architectures that we interpret as key to the illuminous mental forms we experience as self and forms running through self, which mislead us into the hard judgement that the only pathway is through our mind, that we somehow exist independently of everything that exists outside the surface of our conscious awareness which is still us. Surprising to understanding when we understand, frustrating when we're stuck though in those illusions of course.

My personal cord for you is to strike with softness, between the centre of your eyes all the way down the rest of the centre of your being and run about and down this energetic field, understand that mind is no mind and you will see windows into areas of the mind you've never perceived before, the same too with all other aspects of your energetic experience of being.

Come into the realisation that energy is of first reality, even if its not what we first perceive, we might first perceive our thoughts or even sensory stimuli, but it is our energy that creates the thoughts, thus, it is energy resolution, dissolution and transformation which is what will enable us to perceive and experience new states, thoughts and energies outside the circumference of what we believe we know.

For we believe we know for certain, aka dunning-kruger, after the energy exists to know, but if you are not attached to the thought that creates this stance, the ever-changing and adaptable force called your energy within being can be directed in multitude to a myriad of alternate attiitudes that give you the flexibility we often associate with the experience and mindfulness of freedom and the paradoxical certainty and beauty of truth as well as the paradoxical chaotic and rebellious nature of truth.

In direct answer to your last question, it came as I practiced inhabiting the reality of other beings. This has become pronounced these last few days as I've had to pay much more attention than usual to the existence of another human, being my nephew (I'm on holiday looking after him, present with other friends and contacts). His world, a gestalt in mine, so to what I add and subtract in that gestalt paints my present responsibilities and future behaviour towards his world which is far more sensitive to mine to influence and any other person I'm around so its something I remain vigilant about in a teaching and mentoring sense. To truly inhabit the world of another, if it does not make you question your own world ten-fold, you have not done a very good job at putting yourself in their shoes, if your goal was depth as opposed to mere expedient efficiency, the latter is great for the business world, terrible if we want to be relationally innovative. 

So continue to do so many times after absorbing this understanding, instead of becoming an insecurity it will more and more be seen as an enthralling challenge that puts you in a completely different viewpoint, repeatedly, of the war of life. Including your subsequent triumphs as a consequence of achieving this higher energetic resolve of not just being, but too, a mere part of that, mind as well and the emotions it creates from those illuminous mental forms, avoiding the erudite that is not merely superficial here, aka when you falsely believe you've reached the top of the mountain simply because you're facing with your back towards it.


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You guys seem to care a lot about knowing things for sure, being smart, your statements being true.

Why?

Isn't it enough that they were your best attempt at the moment, and true enough to be useful?


I help adults with ADD to overcome self-doubt, function optimally and live their dreams through my proprietary coaching program.

https://calendly.com/erik-coaching/add-coaching-free-strategy-consult

Besides that, ♂ I offer single breakthrough calls for men on social life, dating, relationships and sexuality.

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Posted (edited)

@flowboy Haven't read all posts so you might be replying to something specific.

This is just the unfolding of human development. No one is immune to it. 

The paradox in it, is that the false sense, of perceived competency, that relatively speaking low competency, correlates with high confidence.

This is not about thinking you are smart, it is about the pain related to becoming aware that you indeed have had false and inflated confidence and how this relates to the gaining of understanding that what you thought you knew now has proven itself incorrect/incomplete.

And this realization becoming a readily apparent pattern in your experience, not just a single occurrence.

And becoming aware of this being a stage of development. 

This means that anyone not having passed that state will falsely think this is beneath them. 

So the question then becomes, how do you know that you're not in that flase confidence, low competency, high dellusion state of development?

Dogma is just that, the inability to accept that anything else could be true, and to such a deep and unconscious degree that you are not able to see it, as dogma as a phenomenon is outside of you awareness. 

Edited by Eph75

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25 minutes ago, flowboy said:

You guys seem to care a lot about knowing things for sure, being smart, your statements being true.

Ironically, development is the opposite of this. 

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You realize that you weren't as smart, developed or awake as you thought you were, and now when the false sense of security is ripped away from under your feet, you feel extremely inadequate.

It definitely hurts the ego to know that you're less smart than you thought you were. But it's ok. From a less ego-centred perspective all that's happening is that you lost in a contest of comparison. But smartness is not one dimensional, it's actually nonsensical to compare smartness between people; it's always apples and oranges. It may feel wrong, but even people who are smart in the same areas (say playing Chess), have different methods and intuitions, it's never a like-for-like comparison.

The other thing is that there's not a ceiling on smartness. In a sense you're always showing yourself how dumb you were, by ever increasing your smartness. So even if you're only competing with yourself, you'll always be losing (and winning). This is the natural order of things.

And, the ego being humbled is no bad thing. It gives you the space to appreciate how smart and wonderful other people are too.

Edited by LastThursday

Consiousness is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

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1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

So the question then becomes, how do you know that you're not in that flase confidence, low competency, high dellusion state of development?

I just assume that I am deluded and whatever I believe will be wrong in some way, and I'm cool with it.

It's still useful to me and others, until I discover the next level.

So what's the big deal?

I don't recall any sort of depression from this, sounds like an issue of taking the mind too seriously.


I help adults with ADD to overcome self-doubt, function optimally and live their dreams through my proprietary coaching program.

https://calendly.com/erik-coaching/add-coaching-free-strategy-consult

Besides that, ♂ I offer single breakthrough calls for men on social life, dating, relationships and sexuality.

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Posted (edited)

@flowboy Consider that you think you're not taking the mind too seriously is a delusion. Consider that your approach to life has ignored opportunities to further well-being and growth, simply because you think you are unshaken by mistakes and stay in positivity.

Edited by Windappreciator

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16 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@flowboy Consider that you think you're not taking the mind too seriously is a delusion. Consider that your approach to life has ignored opportunities to further well-being and growth, simply because you think you are unshaken by mistakes and stay in positivity.

If you don't have trust that whatever is, is meant to be, then you can tie yourself into knots like this.


I help adults with ADD to overcome self-doubt, function optimally and live their dreams through my proprietary coaching program.

https://calendly.com/erik-coaching/add-coaching-free-strategy-consult

Besides that, ♂ I offer single breakthrough calls for men on social life, dating, relationships and sexuality.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Eph75 said:

It's not so much escaping the kreuger-dunning effect as it is the movement along the competency increase and the shift in correlation to confidence, where confidence drops as you start realizing that you know less than you thought you did, and the more competent you get the more humble you are to the understanding that you know nothing, and confidence or lack of doubt in self once again shifts. 

i.e. escaping the part of the curve that people most often refer to when mentioning Dunning-Kruger (the low competence, high confidence area). The later part of the curve is more often refered to as just expertise.

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

And, the ego being humbled is no bad thing. It gives you the space to appreciate how smart and wonderful other people are too.

That is the best part 😊


To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

So what's the big deal?

There is no big deal, I don't think anyone implied there being a big deal?

Some experience this, others don't or don't notice/know it, or aren't aware of it being that, until much later.

It sure is a big deal to someone stuck in it. But of course, that person doesn't know it, so to whom would it a big deal.

If you're interested in human development, it's an interesting aspect.

Since it's a phase where it's hard to reach and affect, nudging the one stuck in rigid ways, I'd put it into the category of curiosity rather than very useful tools. 

The awareness to identify patterns, in people is useful though, if you're into helping people develop. There are a lot of people wanting to develop but counter-intuitively work against themselves in this stage. 

Edited by Eph75

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