Husseinisdoingfine

Myers-Briggs = pseudoscience?

35 posts in this topic

I'm not completely against taking the quiz, only for fun: https://www.16personalities.com/

But it's measuring something that's so arbitrary, vague, and cannot be measured. Myers and Briggs were not even professional scientists, and Carl Jung agreed that it's not real science.

P.S. I got INFJ-T, which is bizarre because just last year I got INTJ-T


لا إله إلا الله، وليو رسول الله

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Ofc MBTI is shit. But what's even shitter is that website, https://www.16personalities.com/ . 

Take this one https://jung.test.typologycentral.com , and then this one if you want to take another https://sakinorva.net/functions . 

 


Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough

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Posted (edited)

I don’t think the test itself is good, but I think if typed properly, there can be some value to understanding personalities. I personally scored as INFJ, INTJ, INFP, and even ISTP. Only after doing research on the personalities, one of them resonated with me very clearly, everything I thought was “wrong” with me all these years, turned out, that was just my personality. I watched people with same personality to mine share their experience, and it was just shocking how much I could resonate. I think what matters more is the functions themselves. 16personalities.com is definitely not giving a good understanding and doesn’t even mention anything about the cognitive functions. 

2 people with the same personality type will still be very different people because of their experiences and value system. But.. if there is a problem that they need to solve, or a decision they need to make, people with similar personalities would approach them in a similar mechanism. Same thing with how they spend most of their time, if you were to measure in % of time what is it that they are thinking about, what do they want most of the time, what makes them mad most of the time - you would see there are some “preferences” that emerge. 

That being said, it is dangerous because it can be very limiting. If you were to read that your personality type doesn’t like pigeons and you buy into that for example, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy and you could start walking around and hating every pigeon you see just because you’ve read that that’s what you’re supposed to do. Same thing if you were to read that your friends personality type hates pigeons, you could wrongfully label your friend a pigeon hater.

 

Edited by Khr

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Science = pseudo-science ;)


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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I don't think MBTI should be taken too literally, as it would be impossible to cover all different ways of being with just 16 types, but will give you a good indicator of how you function as a human being.

If you test closely between two different types, it gets harder to point out your actual type, so you may get different results when taking the test multiple times. I took the test once per year since 2016 and I always got the same MBTI result, as well as the exact same enneagram result every time. The result being INTP 5w4.


INTP 5w4 from Norway

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Posted (edited)

 

There is a distinction between explanatory vs. predictive capability. If you imagine a conceptual continuum, each part of the dichotomy can be observed on the respective extremes of each continuum: metaphysics - physics (explanatory - predictive), rationality - empiricism, framework - data etc. Science as a whole actually relies on both aspects just as much, but some models highlight these different aspects to various degrees.

It's usually the big-picture models that lean more in the direction of explanation over prediction because of the desire for high comprehensiveness, which usually comes at the cost of low reliability/validity. If you limit science to the neat, simple and highly predictive models, then MBTI is not very scientific, but then that also applies to the many aspects of science that you may take for granted, namely the descriptive and explanatory aspects.

But why is Big 5 so much more predictive than MBTI while also being apparently just as comprehensive (if not more)? Well, this is true only at the trait/behavioral level. Like Harry of CBT mentioned, MBTI has both a cognitive aspect (cognitive functions) AND a behavioral/trait aspect (personality type) which interact with eachother. That makes MBTI a much more complex, comprehensive and also messy model: much more explanatory power, but also less predictive capability.

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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I always got different results too but did figured out my personality type and probably exactly as that personality type will do it /use it to improve himself/his life. Haha it is without mistake that. 

 

Do i beleive it is more complex then that, yes. But can give general picture that is for sure. 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Husseinisdoingfine So, did you take the tests I linked? Any other thoughts or interests you have on the general topic, besides some crappy youtube video?

You create a lot of threads without replying much eh? 

@Zeroguy haha, alright I see 

Edited by lmfao

Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough

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If you want some people who probably dobthe most rigorous and accurate, scientific measurement of persoanlity types stemming from myers briggs, check out Objective Personality on YT.  They also have a website.

Basically, their goal is to get personality typing into academia and science.  So they developed their own system based off Jung and Myers Briggs' system of cognitive functions.  They've discovered 512 subtypes feom the original 16.  

They saw a similar issue you raise.  So they define their terms very specifically.  They then have a checklist of binary choices which they go through as they type someone.  They both type the same person in separate rooms, and then see if they got the same type in order to verify their system is tracking something "objective".  

They've fone around 2000 people so far.  They say they both get the same type, separately, out of the 512 subtypes about 80-90% of the time.  So it seems their system is tracking something and is pretty accurate.  

 


"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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It's just a model and it's not 100% accurate but it has some accuracy, roughly.

I typed as an INFP. The general description is pretty accurate although there's things that aren't that flattering but they are true.

 

I found that I have many things in common with other INFP's and at the same time so many things are different from other INFP's, which made me consider the option that there's few sub-types of INFP or any other personality type. Or maybe there are more than 16 types or just the model needs more development and isn't final.

 

Sometimes I'm not sure about all the functions (Fi,Fe,Te,Ti,Ni,Ne,Si,Se) and I wonder if is there something missing or need more work on?

 


“My meditation is simple. It does not require any complex practices.

It is simple. It is singing. It is dancing. It is sitting silently”

 OSHO

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, Alysssa said:

I found that I have many things in common with other INFP's and at the same time so many things are different from other INFP's, which made me consider the option that there's few sub-types of INFP or any other personality type. Or maybe there are more than 16 types or just the model needs more development and isn't final.

That's called being an individual. Personality models are limited descriptions. For example, there is nothing wrong with describing yourself as shy, but you as an individual are not defined by that one single word alone. That is never the case, even with the finest models.

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Alysssa said:

 Or maybe there are more than 16 types or just the model needs more development and isn't final.

 

Sometimes I'm not sure about all the functions (Fi,Fe,Te,Ti,Ni,Ne,Si,Se) and I wonder if is there something missing or need more work on?

 

These guys have 512 subtypes from the original 16.  Including things like masculine and feminine functions.  "Jumpers" who they've found to be people who's secondary function is actually the third in their type's tradition stack.  As well as "animals" who are like functions that come about by the combination of two regular functions.  I'd recommend checking them out.   Especially check out their method and how they do it and tue results they've had with it.

Edited by Matt23

"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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It's a fun little tool to help understand the differences in how people's minds work. It has personally helped me understand the differences in mind-types and has helped me appreciate the differences among humans.


Enter their minds, and you’ll find the judges you’re so afraid of – and how judiciously they judge themselves.

- Marcus Aurelius

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Matt23 said:

These guys have 512 subtypes from the original 16.  

Ain't no way is that level of specificity going to help anyone. You'll land in the same place or worse.

You'll run into the same mental stall-outs. You'll still be scrambling to fill in the gaps. It's like trying to stuff a suitcase with more and more stuff, expecting that you can zip close the damn thing. Bits and pieces will keep sticking out, and you'll keep trying to scrunch it all back in forever. 

Edited by lmfao

Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough

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Posted (edited)

If I said "some people are tall, some people are short" would this be pseudoscience / unscientific-theory?

Maybe, idk.. does it matter? Fuck no.

Still a useful way of categorising things, and the model can't exactly be "incorrect".  People can be considered more short than tall, and this can be a useful distinction.

 

 

"All models are wrong, but some are useful."

Edited by thisintegrated

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1 hour ago, lmfao said:

Ain't no way is that level of specificity going to help anyone. You'll land in the same place or worse.

What do you mean by "landing in the same place or worse"?  What is "the same place"? 

 I'd just urge you to not dismiss it for one reason without understanding it and working with it a bit.  I'm sure I had similar doubts as you; "Ok, so now I know my type.  Now what?"  But lately I've been seeing how much it explains and how it can be a great map to help me out in life.  That's after several months of going through their content etc..

I think it has usefulness, at least for me.  Especially if you learn and understand it more than just a casual glance, you might find it can help.  I think I and many fall into the trap of dismissing things and thinking they understand the significance or usefulness of things without really taking the time to understand it.  

I'm not saying generalities don't have a usefulness.  But specificities have usefulness as well.  Especially if the method of obtaining those looks pretty damn accurate and reliable.   For me, it kinda makes me see "Oh, these are my specific imbalances, so now I have a better idea of what types of things to do in order to rebalance them."  Also just having that map really helps in understanding myself and others better.  You could also use it in relationships as well.  Tons of possibilities you could use it for. 

Also consider the possibility that even if one doesn't see immediate usefulness for something, doesn't mean it won't grow into something profound and practical later on.  

I dunno.  If it doesn't float your boat, hey, it ain't for you.  But I invite you to just check it out a bit.  I dunno.  You might find something there worthwhile.  If not, hey, what's the worst that could happen?  

Either way, it's just another thing among many.  Find what suits you I guess.  But there's also something to be said for exploration to open oneself to new things and ideas one wouldn't regularly expose themselves to.  

 


"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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