Vagos

How do you deal with toxic Green?? Leo? Help

62 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I have a huge problem with dealing with toxic people from the SD Green ideology complex. The fact that they don't understand when they pose an unfalsifiable argument or a self-canceling argument is very triggering to me. I fully understand the value of Green concepts, I was one of the organizers of an LGBT pride movement, I am very cautious with the products I use and the impact they have on the environment, even paying extra money for it, I cherish people that are vegan even though I am not, and politically I am also heavily leaning towards left.

But when people start having logical fallacies and epistemologic blunders I just lose it... 

Someone comes up to me with the argument of "Fascists should be killed" and I go out of my way to explain to them that fascism is (besides else) the act of forcefully imposing your opinion to another person and killing a fascist would be exactly nothing short of fascism itself, and they don't get it and they start attacking me and they start believing that I am a fascist myself for saying that, then I just lose it, I have this rage that builds inside me, my chest, my head, I just suppress my anger and move away, because if I don't I feel like I might end up causing someone harm.

Or when I explain something to someone and they blame me for mansplaining just because I am a man and I argue that mansplaining is the act of explaining something in a manner that uses my sex as a means of power and I'm doing nothing like that at the moment, and then they start telling me that I'm mansplaining what mansplaining means, even though I'm literally just reading to them from a definition dictionary, and the fact that they don't see that their argument is unfalsifiable, and that there is no argument such, that if I use it they become persuaded, I just can't handle it.

It seems like I have a very big emotional burst whenever I can't prove that I am right. I feel a huge injustice being done to me.

Due to having suppressed anger in the past for other reasons (also having to do with a feeling of not being able to prove my points and being ridiculed even though I was right and feeling that a huge injustice is taking place) I now have panic attacks that build up from the exact same bodily sensation and it so much resembles what I'm feeling in these anger-causing situations it's uncanny. It's just like this anger has to come out no matter what and finds other ways around.

Please give me some fruitful ideas about what can I do to solve this.

I have thought of just entering a state of existing in which I actively avoid any argument that might cause turmoil, I have thought about talking only with questions, I have thought about going completely silent for a while, sometimes when it builds up to a certain level and I am at the peak of this anger rollup I even think that I should move away from civilization altogether and go live somewhere else, in a monastery or something.

There might be more counterintuitive ways, like maybe it could be interesting to just start agreeing with them so much that it becomes creepy, like if I pretend I agree with that first person that wants to kill fascists and I start talking about decorating street lights with their intestines or something, like coming out on top with something so radically extreme that it will make even them question their ideas. I don't know folks. I need some help here.

Thanks sorry for the long read

Edited by Vagos

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Posted (edited)

First show them that you fully understand and empathize with their perspective, they need to feel that your on their side, then softly introduce the concept and make them empathize with your perspective. 

"i understand how you feel"

In general your just not a likable guy during these interactions, be likable. Tone of voice is basically everything when dealing with feelers, nothing else matters. 

I grew up in a feeler green family. This is the way.  

Edited by integral

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1 hour ago, Vagos said:

It seems like I have a very big emotional burst whenever I can't prove that I am right. I feel a huge injustice being done to me.

Welcome to everybody's world xD This is what most people feel. If you understand that, it might help.

What do you mean by toxic Green, can you give us examples?

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9 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Welcome to everybody's world xD This is what most people feel. If you understand that, it might help.

What do you mean by toxic Green, can you give us examples?

I did already yes, did you skip on reading the whole thing? I know it's big sorry :/

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2 hours ago, Vagos said:

Please give me some fruitful ideas about what can I do to solve this.

Journal, and I don’t mean rationally.

 

Take a piece of paper, or a word document and write out your absolute uncensored and brutal preferably foul-mouthed anger. Let it pour through you like your life depended on it - only via keyboard/pen where no-one is being harmed in the process, and you’re being liberated. Rage via writing. It works extremely well when repressed anger comes up. Because via writing nothing needs to be held back. 
 

ps, I wouldn’t use the self actualisation journals here, it’s best to delete it usually. 

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This issue is not just about Green. This is the much larger issue of how do you deal with ignorance?

As you become more conscious you are likely to develop contempt for the massive unconsciousness of the average person. That's one of the many burdens of seriously developing yourself. You start to feel like a genius among apes. And then you gotta find ways to cope with that.

Best way I find is to stop trying to convince or change people and focus most of your attention on your creative work. Do not get too entangled with ignorant people and their BS. It's a huge distraction. Let them be ignorant. Focus on your work. And don't hinge your work on ignorant people.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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I wonder what kind of things you were saying/doing (subtly or otherwise) that would get someone to accuse you of mansplaining?

I appear strongly opinionated around my peers, but I am never accused of mansplaining. 

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@Vagos 

How about not engaging in debates with such people? Oh right, that won't do (I'll explain later).

Debates are an utter and complete waste of time. Ignorant people will not be convinced and no amount of reasoning will change anything about that. You need to be wise enough to understand that or you're just as foolish as them. 

It's a lovely relief to stop giving a f*ck about other peoples opinions and world views. My life is way too short to convince fools of what I think to be right, true or good. Is that really how you choose to spend your precious time?

You'll soon be dead, remind yourself of that next time you're about to engage in some stupid debate. 

 

You seek approval. You want to convince other people because actually, you want to convince yourself. You want to know that you're right. You want to feel it. And when you're denied that feeling of approval and righteousness (*cough* self esteem *cough* ) and instead are confronted with this impenetrable wall of ignorance, you feel rage. You're attached to your opinions. See, if I truly know something to be true, I don't need to convince anybody of it. 

Stop taking yourself so goddamn seriously. Nobody cares.

Learn to do the same thing. 

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura

Yeah but then I feel that stage 2 should care about stage 1 like an adult cares for teenagers. I should understand them, empathize with them, give them a break because they are at a lower school class sort of speak... But then I don't and I feel guilty that I don't. And like you (that's why I asked you personally too) I also feel that my life purpose is to teach this stuff. So I can not just ignore them and mind my life purpose because my life purpose IS literally them and their transformation to higher degrees of consciousness and reality understanding.

@RendHeaven

I do admittedly come out as strongly opinionated and I can't help that, because my opinion has very solid roots in fundamental concept analysis, epistemology and logic (logic as logics, as the science of doing logic and creating true statements, not as we usually use this word airy fairy like the opposite of feelings or whatever) and has a sound core structure that is not based on some stage green group thinking deeply ideological propaganda that has its roots in the internal need of belonging somewhere and has zero conceptual understanding because it usually has zero contemplation work done.

 

Edited by Vagos

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13 minutes ago, Vagos said:

@Leo Gura

Yeah but then I feel that stage 2 should care about stage 1 like an adult cares for teenagers. I should understand them, empathize with them, give them a break because they are at a lower school class sort of speak... But then I don't and I feel guilty that I don't. And like you (that's why I asked you personally too) I also feel that my life purpose is to teach this stuff. So I can not just ignore them and mind my life purpose because my life purpose IS literally them and their transformation to higher degrees of consciousness and reality understanding.

Here's the solution:

1) A Tier 2 person needs to channel her care and love in constructive creative ways. Your LP is not debating fools. This is a waste of your consciousness and love. Rather you must help mankind ON YOUR TERMS. So rather than debating ignorant people, go create a course or a school or something else that can truly help people. Debating people is one of the least constructive uses of your intelligence. If your LP is to teach, then fucking TEACH! Do it seriously, not arguing with fools. Make yourself a serious teacher. A seriosmus teacher doesn't argue, she is too busy teaching.

Be careful to not let people distract you from your true LP with petty human bullshit and games. Stop playing games with them.

You're angry because you're not actually doing your LP.

2) After years of experiencing it, you will learn to cope with ignorance and not let it faze you.

As you become ridiculously conscious, you will become able to not let ignorance affect you. You are not conscious enough for that yet.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Leo Gura Alright yeah that helps to some extent. Although I'm still very sad and also angry at myself for not being able to help people with really strong minds that can take it a step further. It's a pity really. I so much believe that these people can make it to the next level. Then again maybe they can't... I don't know, the jump from green to tier 2 is sure gigantic and highly underestimated. Anyway thanks, I highly value your opinion. 

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@Leo Gura It feels lonely where you are... doesn't it...? :-/ 

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura What if your students argue with you about your teaching's content?

"But Leo ..." sort of style

Edited by Hello from Russia

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The average Joe see’s through this hypocrisy with little to no effort because they are not suppressing their emotions to “be right”… to “be the knower”. 

Do you see the people you talk with having huge problems with a conversation, judging others as below them and toxic, being trigged by a conversation, blaming others for getting triggered and ignoring & suppressing rage & anger, and even needing to refrain from causing harm to others?

How is this so entirely missed? Seems preposterous. 


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2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

The average Joe see’s through this hypocrisy with little to no effort because they are not suppressing their emotions to “be right”… to “be the knower”. 

Do you see the people you talk with having huge problems with a conversation, judging others as below them and toxic, being trigged by a conversation, blaming others for getting triggered and ignoring & suppressing rage & anger, and even needing to refrain from causing harm to others?

How is this so entirely missed? Seems preposterous. 

But I do identify this as the problem. I do not think that this is what should be. I think that this should change and that's why I posted my OP in the first place. That doesn't make said opinions less valid if that's what you're saying though.

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Such a valuable thread! I'd better print some of these fab answers and make posters out of them.:D

 


Association with the wise is the root cause for obliterating all misery. -  Tripura Rahasya

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Lemme offer you my perspective.

5 hours ago, Vagos said:

It seems like I have a very big emotional burst whenever I can't prove that I am right. I feel a huge injustice being done to me.

I'm gonna make an educated guess based on your post. You consider yourself a person that cares about treating others with justice. You probably really are fair, just and all that stuff - you seem pretty conscious, but that's not the point here.

The thing is, you identify with being caring and just. And you think others should be like that too.

I think that the problem here is your identity. If you let go of this idea that you're like this and you are and should be like that, you also wouldn't be so affected by others that are this way.

When you identify with being punctual and think to yourself how being always on time is something important in life, you will also be angry with people that tend to be late. This is an example from my life - I was like this. But once I stopped caring, became more spontaneous and let go of this idea that I have to be punctual, my anger with people that are late also halted. Now when my friend doesn't arrive on time, I just go for a walk, meditate for a bit, watch the sky, the birds, etc. and I'm totally chill about it.

So maybe the way to solve this would be to:

  1. Let go of the identity of being just
  2. Notice when you're selfish even in minor ways and embrace it. Hell, maybe even consciously treat someone with injustice one time, if it doesn't hurt that person too much. And stop thinking that nooo that's not me. No, it is you. You are everything (at least wise people say so :P)

I really recommend you try this out!

5 hours ago, Vagos said:

 

Or when I explain something to someone and they blame me for mansplaining just because I am a man and I argue that mansplaining is the act of explaining something in a manner that uses my sex as a means of power and I'm doing nothing like that at the moment, and then they start telling me that I'm mansplaining what mansplaining means, even though I'm literally just reading to them from a definition dictionary, and the fact that they don't see that their argument is unfalsifiable, and that there is no argument such, that if I use it they become persuaded, I just can't handle it.

 

Tell you what. Next time something like this happens, tell that person to go fuck themselves. Fuck it. Why even argue? It may shatter your ideas of how you're nice and caring and conscious all that shit, but just try it out like once and do it consciously. Obviously don't do it on a regular basis, lol. But consider this an exercise in shedding your identity.

Good luck :D


Enslavement by illusion is comfortable. It is the liberation by Truth that people fear.

The false dissolves when it is discovered. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Vagos said:

because my opinion has very solid roots in fundamental concept analysis, epistemology and logic (logic as logics, as the science of doing logic and creating true statements, not as we usually use this word airy fairy like the opposite of feelings or whatever) and has a sound core structure that is not based on some stage green group thinking deeply ideological propaganda that has its roots in the internal need of belonging somewhere and has zero conceptual understanding because it usually has zero contemplation work done.

There's a strong fragmentation in this statement - you are mentally splitting reality into two halves, identifying with & upholding one half (the "solid," the "structural," etc.) while dis-identifying with & shitting on the other half.

Do you agree or disagree with my observation? If you admit that I might have a point, are you further willing to admit that maybe you haven't fully explored reality in an unbiased way, or will you insist that your contemplation work is a completed project?

If you are truly a student of epistemology, you ought to be familiar with two central realizations: not-knowing, and relativity.

I suggest you double down on your inquiries with not-knowing and relativity on the forefront of your mind.

I suggest this precisely because I sense in all of your posts that you actually believe that you know [a thing], and you actually believe that your position on [the thing] is non-relative.

Huge pitfall.

If you truly understood not-knowing and relativity, you would actually smile and apologize when accused of 'mansplaining' instead of getting overheated and excessively expository, because you would realize that you don't even know what 'mansplaining' really is:

  • Has it personally happened to you? How many times? Just once, or hundreds? Some women claim to experience it hundreds of times. Perhaps you have logic and dictionary definitions on your side, but even you must concede that women understand more than you on the level of personal experience.
  • Do you know the string of complicated emotions that arise when you are the target of mansplaining? Many women do, intimately.
  • What if the mansplainer doesn't actually realize that he is mansplaining, and this ignorance is a key feature of the phenomenon which women are trying to bring attention to? If this were the case, then your denial of mansplaining would actually be in favor of mansplaining. Are ya gonna deny that? ;)
  • What if it only seems unfalsifiable because you're looking at the phenomenon from within? e.g. - what if appeals to logic, argumentation, dictionary definitions, and narrative control (e.g. "being right," "being objective") are themselves components of mansplaining? Maybe to see mansplaining in full view, you need to literally stop arguing entirely, maybe you need to let go of the need to be right, and then the phenomenon reveals itself to you. I mean clearly many people see it happening, but you don't. So is everyone stupid and wrong, or are you just looking in the wrong places?

And this is just a taste of what it's like to admit your not-knowing.

Furthermore, notice that your standards of what a thing is are particular to YOU or your school of thought. Even if you appeal to what "the dictionary says," the contents of the dictionary must be interpreted, and your interpretation will be different than someone else's interpretation, and are you really arrogant enough to assert that your interpretation is the right one objectively? After all, by what criteria do you assert that you have "the right" interpretation? After honest reflection, you must admit that your criteria for right interpretation is particular/relative to YOUR frame of reference. This is a taste of relativity.

Let's go one more step. Beyond the level of semantics and word games, there is the realization that the feminine lived reality literally sees the world differently from your masculine lived reality, and you actually have no "solid grounds" upon which to insist that your lived reality ought to be prioritized and upheld as true over theirs'.

Take this example: maybe from your perspective, you nonchalantly say something condescending without realizing that you were hurtful, but to you it's really not a big deal. Meanwhile, to the person you were talking to, what you said was seriously hurtful.

To you, it seems like they should just be less sensitive, I mean fuck it's really not a big deal dude it's literally just words! Get over yourself! But to the other person, it really feels like wow this guy has no regards for my emotional world at all - they're completely blind to their impact on others, they have no self-awareness beyond their own skin, and now they're blaming me for something they did, how the hell is this fair??

So I ask you now, who is "right?" Who has the objectively correct worldview? Before you try to get out a measuring tape where you try to discern how "objectively" hurtful a statement is, lemme just spoil for you that there is no such thing. In fact, both interpretations that we found above are valid when we realize the role of relativity in the way that reality unfolds. The statement was simultaneously innocent and hurtful.

When you finally accept this paradox, you lose the will to "fight" over "being right," because no such thing exists anymore. And that's where your body-mind begins to taste freedom.

Edited by RendHeaven

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