Shin

One of the most important thing to understand about women

489 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You're trying to help, but your help is being rejected. 

It's more like yes he's clearly trying to help... but his attention, focus and advices are not directed at the right party.  What people are trying to make him understand is something along the line of

  • She got raped He raped her
  • She should've said no He should've paid attention
  • Don't let yourself be harassed Don't harassed.
  • Protect your girls Educate your boys

And in theory his advices are really useless in a real life context. Anyone who hasn't faced the actual situation themselves would naturally think of some handy solution to a problem without considering the 99 live-time factors when experiencing the actual scenario.   

It's idealism to think one could just be more aware of evil doers to prevent evil to happen.

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3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@integral  By no means do I think what you said was offensive or disrespectful in and of itself. Just the mere fact that you're still here trying to explain things calmly over and over again shows the good place you're coming from. When someone is hurt, especially women, they generally don't want to hear advice but just express and be listened to (...)

@Gesundheit2 Nobody denies the good place integral is coming from. 

But coming from a good place doesn't prevent stating problematic things, creating difficulties for victims to speak up, gaslighting women, or empowering sexual offenders by mistake.

This type of dynamic prevent change and makes one unfortunately part of the problem instead of the solution.

I'd like to add, that insinuating  that our posts are due to being unreceptive and triggered is another shot at making our very legitimate position and reasoning some non-sense that should not be taken seriously because of being somewhat irrational . Which is a common mysoginstic pattern. "Women are emotional and can't think properly". No offense, but we are as cogent as you guys are, so please abstain from such framing.

Also, making pussy grabbing jokes in the middle of this thread is distastful. You're preaching peace while at the same showing hostile displays, and pass yourself as a neutral actor.

Both you and I remember very clearly a similar conversation about unsollicited dick pick going in the same direction. Respecting female boundaries wasn't there your priority either. Just sayin'

 

Edited by Etherial Cat

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1 hour ago, Peter Miklis said:

@integral Honestly, you have some valid points. I don't know why everyone keeps bitching about your perspective.? I mean, your perspective includes theirs, so I don't know what's the problem really.

"Bitching about your perspectives"

*Facepalm*

You guys are aware we are talking about sex offenses and many post here side shamelessly on dismissing victimes on a thread made for women to speak up?

If you dont understand what is wrong, feel offended, threathened, or in need to side against what's been said about consent it might be time to introspect on why.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

reality is not all rainbows and butterflies as one might like to think, so it might be useful for you to be prepared for situations like that because these things are unlikely to suddenly disappear. You will not wake up tomorrow in a world where all people are good citizens. It's just not gonna happen. Therefore, it's practically correct to be prepared, better safe than sorry. 

Nobody can ever be prepared enough for a situation like sexual assaults, harassements and rape by the hand of a friend or acquaintance. Nobody. Ever. No amount of prep talks, words or martial art trainings will help you. What I think is rainbow and butterflies is saying "Be careful of some boys" and hope she'll be safe from those boys somehow. 

Besides what are those "some boys"? Because as mentioned it's always the ones you expect the least. Your goodie neighbor, your brother, your cousin, your best friend, your best man, your bf's best friend, your mentor. This advice helps as much as telling your kid "Careful don't get bullied!"  Oh thx now you said that, I guess I won't get bullied so much somehow. Rainbows and butterflies~9_9

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3 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

@Gesundheit2 I'd like to add, that insinuating  that our posts are due to being unreceptive and triggered is another shot at making our very legitimate position and reasoning some non-sense that should not be taken seriously because of being somewhat irrational . Which is a common mysoginstic pattern. "Women are emotional and can't think properly". No offense, but we are as cogent as you guys are, so please abstain from such framing.

Yeah, totally this. This is bothersome because I have spoken about my experiences with sexual assault, and then having it framed as though I was overly-emotional or irrational about it. Or that somehow it happened because I didn't know any better somehow. 

But these are experiences/traumas that I've done a lot of inner work on and have reflected deeply on. I don't really have any particular emotional reaction when it comes to these things if I'm just talking about them as stories of fact. It's more mind-based when I share in this context. This is not a space where heart-centric stuff can get unpacked. There's not enough emotional safety here to do that. But a lot of intellectual realizations can still be gleaned.

So, I initially posted to say simply that these things happened to me. They were traumatic. And similar things happen to lots of women... and some men. And to stress that these are not rare occurrences. And I was hoping to share to give a snapshot for those well-meaning men who have not seen beyond that veil who may still be under the impression that these things are rare occurrences. I was hoping to shock a bit. And I think it probably has shocked some men on here. And I'm sure it shocks them even more to see how hostile and minimizing many of the responses to my posts have been. And as such, it is both a win and a disappointment. 

And just because this should be said somewhere on here, sexual assault doesn't come from male sexual urges. Most boys/men have sexual urges toward women. But most boys/men do not commit sexual assault.

Sexual assault comes from a learned sense of entitlement to women's bodies and a prioritizing of male urges over female well-being. Sexual assault isn't the norm and would be very unwise to normalize it. And this is what perspectives like Integral's perspective does. It normalizes assault and frames it as an integral part of the male instinct, even if he doesn't realize it.

Sexual assault comes from boys/men not being held accountable and not being educated about taking personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. And they glean from the culture that women are responsible for men's actions. So, if a boy/man sexually assaults a woman, 'it isn't his fault because men have urges and needs and that women should be aware enough to not tempt him'. And if she falls asleep in the proximal area of a guy... then 'it's a shame she wasn't better educated about the nature of boys/men.' or more commonly 'She should've known better."

And it's quite audacious to think that someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual assault has never looked into why some men do things like that. This is especially true when my general MO to ponder into things is quite well-known here. 

But the way I read this is that Integral's reason for posting is not really educational or altruistic, even though he's framed it that way and likewise convinced himself of that. 

He's posting these things because me sharing my sexual assault stories is bothering him for some reason and making him feel uncomfortable. And he's trying to find a way to make it an "everybody's responsible" situation, because he doesn't like the way he feels when he hears my experiences. He's just convinced himself that his reason is educational. But it's really self-protective. Perhaps, he doesn't want to see his actions or sexuality as problematic. Maybe he has some worries about that whether they are or aren't. And it can help him assuage those worries by saying everything's 50/50.

It's kind of how, in bad relationships, if you go to your partner with a grievance to be addressed and they deflect by saying (for example) "Yeah, well I might have been lying to you about having sex with other people... but you always leave your towels on the bathroom floor. So, it's basically even. We're both wrong." 

It's deflection disguised as education... even disguised to himself, I think.


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@Emerald a common trope that I really feel is very uncomfortable is men saying "men will be men" and this type of thinking doesn't give any room for improvement in men/integrating the feminine. 

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

@Emerald a common trope that I really feel is very uncomfortable is men saying "men will be men" and this type of thinking doesn't give any room for improvement in men/integrating the feminine. 

 

Exactly. 

It's like 'The drive toward sexual assault is just natural for all men. So, better lower your standards and get used to it because it's integral to men's nature. This is your burden to bear if you're around them.'


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

Emotionalmastery.org

 

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4 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Emerald I owe you an apology. I was rude and said disrespectful things in the past, so I'm sorry. I don't expect you to accept my apology, but just to clear my conscience.

Apology accepted 


If you’re interested in developing Emotional Mastery and feeling more comfortable in your own skin, click the link below to register for my FREE Emotional Mastery Webinar…

Emotionalmastery.org

 

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@Emerald You're very sharp and perceptive. Your words triggers latent knowledge within me that I couldn't put into words and understand it myself. I really value this thread because of insights like yours. And yours too @Etherial Cat 

 

@Gesundheit2 hum. You're missing my point. I don't feel like repeating.. Would you mind reading my few last paragraphs post from the previous page starting where I highlighted in red? That's my answer to your post. Just to stay on topic, we were speaking about friends and acquaintances you knew or trusted, rather than random strangers in the streets. And to clarify my point - I practice martial arts intensively, it's part of my LP.  When I tell you it won't help you facing situations like that, I speak from experience. 

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12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Sexual assault comes from a learned sense of entitlement to women's bodies and a prioritizing of male urges over female well-being. Sexual assault isn't the norm and would be very unwise to normalize it. And this is what perspectives like Integral's perspective does. It normalizes assault and frames it as an integral part of the male instinct, even if he doesn't realize it.

Like i said i was raised well, received a loving childhood. Saying this, i was in does situations many times with women sleeping around me at different points in my life that i was friends with, I can say the hormonal and emotional urges are strong. I didn't act on it, because its wrong on many levels, but i sure masterbated to the mental imagery of it. Are you able to empathize with my experience? Is my sexuality problematic? I thought this was normal. 

Why is it not male instinct overruling higher cognitive function and ethics? 

 

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

Sexual assault comes from boys/men not being held accountable and not being educated about taking personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions.

I think this logic breaks down at scale and in the dirty world of survival, I received this education and therefore didn't act, maybe your right. At the same time i was barely hanging on. If a copy of me was placed in 10 000 sceneries, probabilistically i would of acted at least once. By act i mean, touch something. 

Reinventing the education system will do wonders, proof is in lowered sexual assaults in progressive countries. I agree. While we wait 100 years for that can we be realistic about how to navigate the current altitude? 

Edited by integral

How is this post just me acting out my ego in the usual ways? Is this post just me venting and justifying my selfishness? Are the things you are posting in alignment with principles of higher consciousness and higher stages of ego development? Are you acting in a mature or immature way? Are you being selfish or selfless in your communication? Are you acting like a monkey or like a God-like being?

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@Etherial Cat What are you even talking about? I said his perspective includes yours, which means he's not justifying rape or sexual harrasement, all he's trying to do is raise awareness about general mindset of most men, and that if most men could have their way with you, they would. Which you already know, but if you knew that when you were younger, you wouldn't be putting yourself in risky situation.

What he said vs. what ya'll said is not mutually exclusive, you can educate men about taking responsibility of their sexuality (which I doubt will help, but that's besides the point) AND tell women to be more carefull than they already were, even around male friends. If you can't see this, then I have nothing else to say to you.

Edited by Peter Miklis

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1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

We can certainly have better education about boundaries and what counts as offense and what doesn't.

Society can certainly try to educate, but if you're the type of guy that puts his hands on a sleeping women, chances are you probably wouldn't give a shit.

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13 hours ago, Emerald said:

Sexual assault comes from a learned sense of entitlement to women's bodies and a prioritizing of male urges over female well-being. Sexual assault isn't the norm and would be very unwise to normalize it. And this is what perspectives like Integral's perspective does. It normalizes assault and frames it as an integral part of the male instinct, even if he doesn't realize it.

Sexual assault comes from boys/men not being held accountable and not being educated about taking personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. And they glean from the culture that women are responsible for men's actions. So, if a boy/man sexually assaults a woman, 'it isn't his fault because men have urges and needs and that women should be aware enough to not tempt him'. And if she falls asleep in the proximal area of a guy... then 'it's a shame she wasn't better educated about the nature of boys/men.' or more commonly 'She should've known better."

19 hours ago, mivafofa said:

Why should my innocence or the innocence of any young girls be rectified and punished - when any of this crap could've been avoided by taking actions and spreading awareness onto these predators who cause this mess in the first place? They're the ones who have to be rectified and punished.  It's almost like saying like "It takes 2 people for a rape to happen. Therefore there is responsibility from both parties". But really, it's not 2 people who caused rape or sexual harassment to happen, it's one of them. 

Evan had no awareness of her perspective in that situation. He only saw his own desires. If evan had been thought the feminin perspective or how to empathize or how to think in perspectives he would of realized how his actions where overruling her well-being. 

At the same time is it ok for her to just remain ignorant of all of this? Are there no benefits to teaching her about different perspective like the feminin/masculine? Its ok for her to be ignorant of the fact that she fell asleep next to a raging bull? 

I'm not trying to instill fear into her about all men, this is about a realistic education to complete peoples understanding of each other and themselves

Are you guys seeing how i blamed no one and I'm not saying educating women will yield better results in avoiding assault, but it will likely have some benefit in that its important overall for personal and societal growth. Systemic effects. 

Both are clueless and both need a education, that will bring the societal changes your seeking. 

---

My sister grew up with out trauma, in her 20s she injured her back and a friend picked her up to carry her to the car. After words he said "i couldn't believe the goddess that was in my arms". she felt betrayed by this, how can he be thinking these thoughts when I'm in pain and need help? 

It took her into her 20s to even be exposed to the perspective of the opposite sex. We are flip flopping between animalistic desires and higher ethics. Often in conflict with one another. 

innocent feminin perspectives are incomplete just like the masculine perspectives. Innocents is a misunderstanding of the landscape and a recipy for potential trauma. 

If a negative event happens, could the trauma be avoided? would a quality education help? Potentially. Would educating men lower assault. Yes. Would educating women have systemic effects? Yes. 

Educate EVERYONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. 

Edited by integral

How is this post just me acting out my ego in the usual ways? Is this post just me venting and justifying my selfishness? Are the things you are posting in alignment with principles of higher consciousness and higher stages of ego development? Are you acting in a mature or immature way? Are you being selfish or selfless in your communication? Are you acting like a monkey or like a God-like being?

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Well I give up if these clear and crystal explanations from everyone and I weren't able to reach you I dont know what would. I'm gonna make some last few corrections however. 

7 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You're talking about change only on the societal level, while @integral is talking about change more on the personal level.

Nope. I emphasized personal change as well. I literally highlighted in bold red that even I knew better and was more informed, nothing would've changed. And I explained why. I don't know how more personal it can get.  You guys really think we haven't played with these thoughts long enough? What you guys imagine would help, we thought about it on day 1 already. The difference between you men arguing and us women arguing here, is that yours stays an imagination that it would help, while we were obliged to put it into practice and received the live result. Who do you think would know better I wonder.

7 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

 

I mean how can you stop rape if you don't understand it first? 

A point all of you guys should really sit on. 

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Predatory behaviour is predatory behaviour.

You can't expect a victim to know beforehand if a person is going to be predatory 

The logic that a woman should know better is absurd and keeps men in an infantile state with lack of responsibility.

It's akin to saying that I will befriend you and enter your house and then rob your house and then ask you why you didn't know better 

Remember that you can always tell someone to be aware of strangers and not accept a ride with them.

But once a woman is your friend, she has trusted you, the trust while being friends with someone is implicit and is completely normal and moral. Now it's the moral responsibility of the man to keep this trust 

It's unethical that a woman trusts you after you have befriended her by winning her trust and then you seize an opportunity to break her trust 

That's immoral and the women cannot have any culpability in it 

You cannot Create trust in a person and steal their money and then blame them for trusting you 

It is your moral responsibility to keep trust once it has been created.

And if you can't keep someone's trust, then do not befriend at all.

Be honest and tell them already of your predatory instincts so they are safe and they leave you 

In being honest lies your sincerity.

You can't be insincere and blame innocent people for the suffering generated out of your insincerity. That's not the law of ethics.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Preety_India

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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@Preety_India In most cases people are not predators before hand. It happens organically. Especially the young with sleep assault. 

1 hour ago, integral said:

I'm not saying educating women will yield better results in avoiding assault

But it will have systemic effects as well as other benefits unrelated. 

Edited by integral

How is this post just me acting out my ego in the usual ways? Is this post just me venting and justifying my selfishness? Are the things you are posting in alignment with principles of higher consciousness and higher stages of ego development? Are you acting in a mature or immature way? Are you being selfish or selfless in your communication? Are you acting like a monkey or like a God-like being?

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@integral

A distinct difference.

I didn't say a person is already a predator.

Read very carefully.

I said - "predatory behaviour is predatory behaviour."

Which means If someone is engaging in predatory behaviour in a moment, they are well aware that they are engaging in predatory behaviour and they need to stop themselves from it and this is their own moral responsibility and this is their own culpability.

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

And if you can't keep someone's trust, then do not befriend at all.

Be honest and tell them already of your predatory instincts so they are safe and they leave you 

This made it hard to interpret.

---

Women are not responsible. I agree. 

Edited by integral

How is this post just me acting out my ego in the usual ways? Is this post just me venting and justifying my selfishness? Are the things you are posting in alignment with principles of higher consciousness and higher stages of ego development? Are you acting in a mature or immature way? Are you being selfish or selfless in your communication? Are you acting like a monkey or like a God-like being?

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2 hours ago, integral said:

If a negative event happens, could the trauma be avoided? would a quality education help? Potentially. Would educating men lower assault. Yes. Would educating women have systemic effects? Yes. 

@Preety_India What are the systemic effect?  

Edited by integral

How is this post just me acting out my ego in the usual ways? Is this post just me venting and justifying my selfishness? Are the things you are posting in alignment with principles of higher consciousness and higher stages of ego development? Are you acting in a mature or immature way? Are you being selfish or selfless in your communication? Are you acting like a monkey or like a God-like being?

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13 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

 

To think that improvement is impossible is a toxic thought.

No one said that.

14 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

 

You could say nothing would help, but that would be a victim's thinking

No one said that. 

----

Straw man fallacy post. Have fun arguing with yourself. 

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