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Preety_India

Your opinion on toppling statues of Confederate leaders

47 posts in this topic

@Harlen Kelly

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

@Preety_India That would be like saying: ''There are always two sides, slavery was not that bad after all, those poor slave owners were forced to give up their slaves and there are always two sides that poor Hitler could not achieve his dreams of geocoding every non-white person in Germany''.

Your relativism is hindering your critical thinking skills. Wisdom and judgement are necessary to take the most suitable decision in a society.

False equivalence and strawmanning. 

I'm asking to not show hate and more compassion. You're twisting it. 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

This is nonsensical. Notice how you don't take into consideration what other jewish people might think.

 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

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@Preety_India I was trying to illustrate the limits of relativism, the ''there are always two sides'' ideological position, you failed to comprehend it. 

Compassion in this case would be not to erect a statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin, this is incredibly obvious and simple. 

Funny enough, Marjorie Taylor Green made a statement similar to yours not too long ago and was bashed by even republicans. (I am not implying you are like her btw). 

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Posted (edited)

 

@Harlen Kelly by not wanting Hitler's statue destroyed, I'm not supporting Hitler. There are limits to relativism but there are also understandable multiple perspectives in relativism. Those cant be ignored. Relativism is not all bad.

 

Edited by Preety_India

    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

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3 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

Compassion in this case would be not to erect a statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin, this is incredibly obvious and simple. 

You're getting me wrong.. 

I never said erect another statue. 

All I'm saying there is no need to destroy that has been erected many years ago. Because such destruction represents vengeance rather than justice. 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

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@Preety_India Weather you support or not Hitler is not what I am discussing, what I am discussing is if erecting a statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin is a sound, intelligent, compassionate decision. 

Your relativism does not allow you to see the simplicity of this. Relativism just like any other ideological position has limits, the ''two sides'' are not equally valid. 

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4 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

what I am discussing is if erecting a statue of Hitler in the middle of Berlin is a sound, intelligent, compassionate decision. 

The problem with your theory is that it's not applicable here. If someone asked me to erect Hitler's statue, I wouldn't want. 

But if 60 year old statue of Hitler exists somewhere I wouldn't want it destroyed because such destruction would imply hate, bitterness and vengeance rather than justice. 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

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It's just immature stage green. They feel righteous and outraged, but can't direct it into something productive so they are just looking for whatever way they can express it.

Toppling statues of some old racist white dudes is a very tangible, physical way for them to do that that seems like a "victory" in their minds.


"If I hadn't made me, I'd fallen apart by now. I won't let them make me, it's more than I can allow.

So when I make me, I won't be paper mache. And if I fuck me..... I'll fuck me in my own way."

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Posted (edited)

@Preety_India Ok, let's see.

There were Nazi monuments and Nazi symbolism all around Germany that were later toppled or removed by the government after the 2nd WW. 

Did the government take the right decision by removing Nazi monuments after the Nazi party committed genocide against 11 million people, or was it as you put it an act of '' hate, bitterness and vengeance rather than justice''?

 @Roy There is nothing ''immature'' about removing monuments of Hitler or Nazy germany (I am using hitler as an example to  illustrate my point).

''Immature'' is your prerogative, that is not an objective judgement of the situation. 

Edited by Harlen Kelly

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Posted (edited)

@Roy exactly. Not only do I find illogical and angsty but also immature. Kinda petty. 

Edited by Preety_India

    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

Preety preety

 

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1 minute ago, Harlen Kelly said:

@Preety_India Ok, let's see.

There were Nazi monuments and Nazi symbolism all around Germany that were later toppled or removed by the government after the 2nd WW. 

Did the government take the right decision by removing Nazi monuments after the Nazi party committed genocide against 11 million people, or was it as you put it an act of '' hate, bitterness and vengeance rather than justice''?

It was immature. There's just no need to do all that. It is illogical. 

Destroy evil not monuments. 

White supremacists use symbol. It's a kiddish thing. 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

Preety preety

 

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2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

It was immature. There's just no need to do all that. It is illogical. 

Destroy evil not monuments. 

White supremacists use symbol. It's a kiddish thing. 

Why is it that the overwhelming majority of germans agree with not having nazy symbolism in germany including every political party?

This is equivalent to debating a flat earther. 

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Posted (edited)

Not really much to debate about here. Not like any of these are priceless works of art; most of them were erected as a pro-segregation political statement  amidst the Civil Rights movements of the 20th Century, built specifically to intimidate blacks and dissuade them from pushing for political rights.

Yeah they should obviously be removed, but anyone who cares at all about Civil Rights should be far more concerned about passing comprehensive Voting Rights legislation and combating contemporary Jim Crow practices, rather than getting drawn in to a Culture Wars debate about statues.

Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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17 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

''Immature'' is your prerogative, that is not an objective judgement of the situation. 

Sure. That is fair. I don't have much opinions on the statues. They are not a concern for me. There are more important things about this topic to direct focus into.

17 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

There is nothing ''immature'' about removing monuments of Hitler or Nazy germany (I am using hitler as an example to  illustrate my point).

They are certainly comparable but I don't think we can equate them on the same scale culturally (Events of WW2 vs Slavery/American Civil War). The impact and relevance of WW2 and the holocaust in minds of most people is obviously much greater.

It's explained by the lag of it being 2021 and some of those statues just being taken down now lol.


"If I hadn't made me, I'd fallen apart by now. I won't let them make me, it's more than I can allow.

So when I make me, I won't be paper mache. And if I fuck me..... I'll fuck me in my own way."

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Posted (edited)

@DocWatts This is incredibly obvious. 

@Roy There is simply no need to have the statue of a slave owner / serial racist in the US. The government should remove them and put them in museums.

How do you think the black community feels about it with negative repercussions of slavery present even today? Leaving them is not particularly wise nor compassionate. 

Edited by Harlen Kelly

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I concur. Take them down, you won't get any resistance from me.

I'm just pointing out the orientation of their energy isn't always productive. Not every single protest or demonstration is sensible, effective, or necessary, even if hearts are in the right place.


"If I hadn't made me, I'd fallen apart by now. I won't let them make me, it's more than I can allow.

So when I make me, I won't be paper mache. And if I fuck me..... I'll fuck me in my own way."

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17 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

Leaving them is not particularly wise nor compassionate. 

One can look at it both ways. I'm not saying that you're totally wrong

I get your perspective and it's valid too. Leaving the statues might seem like lack of compassion. At the same time, destroying these statues might seem particularly unnecessary or strong vengeance/immaturity. It's same as burning buildings out of anger. 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

Preety preety

 

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6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I get your perspective and it's valid too. Leaving the statues might seem like lack of compassion. At the same time, destroying these statues might seem particularly unnecessary or strong vengeance/immaturity. It's same as burning buildings out of anger. 

 

I am for the government removing them. I am not for people defacing them. 

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Posted (edited)

No doubt the Right Wing propaganda machine would much rather have attention focused on Culture Wars debates over tangential issues such as Confederate Statues, rather than on current efforts to undermine Democracy by disenfranchising Black Voters.

Let's maybe pick our battles here.

Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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@DocWatts I don't think it's just about right wing. A lot of people resonate with the sentiment that destruction of statues is over the top and needless. 

Also there is a hidden fear that such behavior can escalate to other things. 

It's like allowing angry SJw mobs to do whatever they want. 

Personally I'm a left leaning SJw as well minus the fanatic factor. 

 


    God is not a belief.  محبت     الحب   प्यार  love  ॐ Om  मोहब्बत God الله   اللہ   خدا My blood is Hindu, my soul is Christian and my heart is Islamic. But right now my head is in the clouds with an Aries male  currently ruling my heart. The Snake seduces the peacock, embodies Shiva and the Gods bow to it. ... ll ॐ ll.. INTP loner... और तुम नाचते गाते हुए मेरे कदमों में आ गिरेगी... Live a Roman.Die a Roman...Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream 

Preety preety

 

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Honestly, the way we treat animals used for meat is horrendous in our current era but so many are blind to it and most of us just tolerate it as just the way it is. Not in the same league but also not entirely different to the culture of slave ownership back in the day. I try to always buy organic when I can, especially with chicken. Would be interesting if statues of all non-vegan historical figures are torn down in the future.

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