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Preety_India

Your opinion on toppling statues of Confederate leaders

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What's your opinion on protestors in America toppling statues of Confederate leaders and Slave Owners. 

To me it seems excessive and vengeful behavior rather than a legitimate protest. 

 

 

 


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To me, it seems legitimate. It would be preferable to use legal means for replacing the statues though. 

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Posted (edited)

@Preety_India No need to have statues of former indecent psychopaths. Put them in a museum if you want to learn about them but don't venerate them. 

Edited by Harlen Kelly

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@Harlen Kelly it's not about venerating them. They exist wherever they exist whether it be parks or lawns. And I don't see how they are creating any problems. 

I have never mentioned that they should be venerated. 

But I don't see toppling them as a good thing. I find it pointless and if taken to the extreme, it really is vengeance and hate. The protests against racism are legitimate but toppling statues is a form of hate and contempt. 

We should fight injustices but in that process we shouldn't become bitter and hateful. 

I see toppling statues as a sign of theatrics, contempt and spreading hate. 

 

 


 INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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@Preety_India When Germany removed statues of Hitler did you saw that as same as these statues? 

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@Preety_India

"The biggest spike in Confederate memorials came during the early 1900s, soon after Southern states enacted a number of sweeping laws to disenfranchise Black Americans and segregate society. During this period, more than 400 monuments were built as part of an organized strategy to reshape Civil War history. And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century — and as recently as 2011."

"“Their goal, in all the work that they did, was to prepare future generations of white Southerners to respect and defend the principles of the Confederacy.” It wasn’t just Confederate monuments, either. They also rejected any school textbook that said slavery was the central cause of the Civil War; they praised the Ku Klux Klan and gave speeches that distorted the cruelty of American slavery and defended slave owners."

Full article-  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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@Opo that's the point I wanted to make. Good you brought it up. 

Lets say I had Jewish grandparents. And if Hitler's statue was erected in a park next to my house, I wouldn't mind it at all. I definitely hate whatever he did, but it's his actions that I hate, not his personhood. I wouldn't want his statue destroyed or his paintings burned. Because that's who he was. And that's fine. To show hate for his personhood makes me equal to his actions. 

What will be the difference between me and Hitler, if I showed him hate in equal measure as he showed to Jews. 

 What I want to say is simply this - condemn wrong actions. Condemn Brutality and injustice and fight hard against it. But don't use it as a funnel for hate and bitterness. The person's works, other contributions or personhood need not be destroyed. Because at the end of the day, man is born with free will. It is his choices that are wrong and evil if he does evil things. Also he has full freedom with these choices and so his personhood is not responsible for what he decided to do with his life and choices. 

If you separate their actions from their identity, they are still human beings equal to other human beings. 

To hate and condemn Hitler's attitude and actions is not only legit but also necessary. He needs to be punished for his actions. But to hate and destroy his paintings and his statues looks like hate rather than condemnation /punishment. There is no need to punish a statue or works or books or anything else for all the evil a person did. 

Another example. Let's say there was a slave owner who was also a scientist. He helped develop a vaccine that is helping millions of people today. Let's say his statue is found in a garden next to a medical institute. Should his statue be defaced or destroyed? I don't think so. Because a man is made of both good and bad. Nobody is perfect. He was a slave owner but he was also a scientist. On one hand he did wrong things but he also did good things. By focusing solely on the wrong things we have completely negated/rejected his good actions. 

If we destroy his statue or name, we are simply being hateful and judgemental and not taking into account the complexity of human nature 

I'm not condoning bad actions like slavery and other such things, but justice and karma does not exist in breeding hate and contempt for those who do/did  wrong, it's important to condemn injustice but not carried away by hate and throw away the baby with the bathwater! 

That's what I meant. 

 


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@Mason Riggle I get it. Today the statues simply exist. They do not propagate slavery. They are not being used to create hate. White supremacy will continue to exist with or without the statues. 

The statues aren't doing anything, and symbols are simply what we make of them. 

Slavery that existed during those times is long gone. The statues in no way are encouraging slavery. They are simply historical monuments. 

Whether they exist in the museum or outside is irrelevant 

 People who want to get rid of them are simply doing it out of a hateful rhetoric. 

There's absolutely nothing that justifies toppling statues that are mute representations of an old past. 

 

 


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Just now, Preety_India said:

@Mason Riggle I get it. Today the statues simply exist. They do not propagate slavery. They are not being used to create hate. White supremacy will continue to exist with or without the statues. 

The statues aren't doing anything, and symbols are simply what we make of them. 

 

I don't think you do get it.

"But a deeper understanding of their historical context paints a very different picture — these statues were meant to promote white supremacy and intimidate Black people, not just to pay homage to Southern pride."
 

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Slavery that existed during those times is long gone.

It's not just about slavery, and it wasn't that long ago.

Ruby Bridges, the first black girl to attend a 'white high school' in America, is just 66 years old today..   

"And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century — and as recently as 2011."  


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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@Mason Riggle nobody is associating white supremacy with these statues. If white supremacists are using these statues, it's their fault 

Your comments remind me of this. 

 

5cn2uh.jpg

 

 


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@Preety_India false equivalence. 

The Colosseum was not constructed with the purpose of prosecuting Christians.  Many of these statues were erected for the purpose of promoting white supremacy and intimidating black people. 

44 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

The statues aren't doing anything, and symbols are simply what we make of them. 

 

Then I guess it isn't a problem to take them down.  


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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@Mason Riggle so just because they aren't doing anything they should be taken down, just because there is no problem in taking them down?

By that logic take down all statues lol. Why even keep others? 

There's simply no logic in taking down statues. 

History is not going to be erased by taking down statues. 

Are we even going to burn books on history? 

Are we even going to destroy names of past leaders, because many of they were slave owners? 

What peace of mind is to be had by destroying non living things erected in a garden? 

There is zero logic and 100% hate, aggression in tearing down and kicking statues. I don't see any sensibility in it. 

 


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Posted (edited)

@Preety_India if there's no logic in taking down statues then there's no logic in putting them up... 

But clearly there are reasons to erect statues, otherwise we wouldn't do it. 

To deny that statues 'do anything' becasue they are 'just statues' is willful ignorance. 

Edited by Mason Riggle

"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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15 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Preety_India if there's no logic in taking down statues then there's no logic in putting them up... 

But clearly there are reasons to erect statues, otherwise we wouldn't do it. 

To deny that statues 'do anything' becasue they are 'just statues' is willful ignorance. 

They were erected for a reason. But the people are long gone and so are the reasons. 

 


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30 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 But the people are long gone and so are the reasons. 

 

"And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century — and as recently as 2011."


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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@Mason Riggle then maybe remove those statues which are commissioned recently. 

Doesn't make sense to go after the old ones. 

 


 INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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Posted (edited)

@Preety_India Let the monuments fall! It has nothing to do with hate. If you want to cut your past, if you want to change a PATTERN - let the monuments fall! Otherwise you´ll fall again and again into old pattern. No matter society or individul. You underestimate a power of symbols.

I am proud to have a country which opened my eyes on some issues, I wasn´t aware of. Lenin fall in different places of Ukraine:

 

 

Edited by Hulia

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Lets say I had Jewish grandparents. And if Hitler's statue was erected in a park next to my house, I wouldn't mind it at all. I definitely hate whatever he did, but it's his actions that I hate, not his personhood. I wouldn't want his statue destroyed or his paintings burned. Because that's who he was. And that's fine. To show hate for his personhood makes me equal to his actions. 

 

This is nonsensical. Notice how you don't take into consideration what other jewish people might think.

Edited by Harlen Kelly

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11 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

This is nonsensical. Notice how you don't take into consideration what other jewish people might think.

I'm sure there are always two sides. One that agree with a statement and the other that don't. I'm sure not all Jews want everything about Hitler destroyed. Sames goes for black people. 

 


 INFJ-T loner... .shy girl..@marcel :x.............My name is Hannu. I'm reserved and shy and introverted and sensitive girl. Please be careful about how you talk to me. Only responds to respectful vibes. ✿۞✿•.¸¸.•*`*•✿✿۞✿✿•.¸¸.•*`*•.•✿☼۞۞☼✿•.•*`*•.¸¸.•✿✿۞✿✿

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@Preety_India That would be like saying: ''There are always two sides, slavery was not that bad after all, those poor slave owners were forced to give up their slaves and there are always two sides that poor Hitler could not achieve his dreams of geocoding every non-white person in Germany''.

Your relativism is hindering your critical thinking skills. Wisdom and judgement are necessary to take the most suitable decision in a society.

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