Judi

Why Anti-Natalism is BS

12 posts in this topic

Hey everyone!

In recent months I have seen a lot of people advocating for anti-natalism, and I can see that the perspective is tempting.

However, after giving it some thought, I can now say that the view that we should not procreate in order to save our children from potential sufering is overly simplistic.

(1) Maybe the instinct of avoiding suffering is wrong in the first place. If it were best for reality to exist without suffering, that would be the case. But that is obviously not the truth, and in fact suffering exists as a necessary counterpart one has to 'work through' in order to get to the 'brighter side'.

Without suffering, there would be no love, and more importantly, no way of teaching ourselves how to love.

 

(2) Other people (or species) will still get children. We know that from other issues and obviously declaring something illegal does not equate with its total elimination. The wiser path to go is to raise CONSCIOUS children that serve as a good example to other human beings and function as valuable leaders to establish a harmonious larger whole.

 

This is crucial to understand when it comes to coping with climate change. It is all about the distribution of resources and the sustainable use of our planet.

Prohibiting procreation is not the way to solve things.

 

 

I just wanted to share this....perhaps it helps somebody to better understand this issue.

Lots of Love

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There is no wiser path. There are a million arguments on both sides of this debate, which could go on forever. It's a feeling choice in the end. People either want children or not, and then they get attached to the arguments that fit their decision and call it "rational". They need some "objective evidence" outside of themselves because they seem to have difficulties with wanting something without reason. But there's nothing reasonable about wanting children. Or not wanting children.

The real question is: Why does there always have to be a reason? And can we do without it?


My website: The Inward Morning

Dei nostri templum terrarum orbus est

 

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Ultimately it's a feeling based decision. 

But if goal is to raise global consciousness ASAP. Then it'd be better if most of the conscious people chose to have kids, and raise conscious people. Either way, majority of children would have fairly unconscious parents. Global consciousness slowly grows anyways. Just faster with more conscious people.

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@flume  I totally agree. I was not trying to make the point  that everybody needs to have children. My point was that it is not quite right to believe that it is wrong to have children in the context of an anti-natalist ideology. This ideology should clearly not be the decisive factor in terms of whether you personally choose to have children or not.

 

(Of course ultimately everything is 'right' if you want to hear that, but I think we all have grown beyond needing to repeat that over and over again. Accepting the chaos ultimately leads to a higher order, and there are still degrees in love/deception that we do need to take into account.)

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@Swarnim Yeah, I think the speed does not even matter that much. And it is probably also our role as a society to establish networks and help children to increase their consciousness independent of their family background.

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It doesn't solve things, but it certainly helps.


"If I hadn't made me, I'd fallen apart by now. I won't let them make me, it's more than I can allow.

So when I make me, I won't be paper mache. And if I fuck me..... I'll fuck me in my own way."

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Posted (edited)

Overpopulation is a serious problem. We just have one planet earth, and the actual rythm of resources explotation is unsustainable. Thats why the elites promote anti natalism. Its written in the Georgia stones.

Edited by Rajneeshpuram

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"It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony."

- Silenus

 

"For humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can."

- Silenus

 

"To Never Have been born may be the greatest boon of all."

- Sophocles

 

"Nothing is better proof of how far humanity has regressed than the impossibility of finding a single nation, a single tribe, among whom birth still provokes mourning and lamentations."

- Emil M. Cioran

 

"I long to be free—desperately free. Free as the stillborn are free."

- Emil M. Cioran

 

"If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?"

- Arthur Schopenhauer

 

"If you try to imagine, as nearly as you can, what an amount of misery, pain and suffering of every kind the sun shines upon in its course, you will admit that it would be much better if, on the earth as little as on the moon, the sun were able to call forth the phenomena of life; and if, here as there, the surface were still in a crystalline state."

- Arthur Schopenhauer

 

"So I admired the dead, who had already died, above the living, who are still alive. But better than both is he who has not yet existed, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 4:2-3

 

"I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit."

Ecclesiastes 1:14

 

"Look, the days are coming when people will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!'"

Luke 23:29

 

"It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place."

- David Benatar

 

"The idea of bringing someone into the world fills me with horror. I would curse myself if I were a father. A son of mine! Oh no, no, no! May my entire flesh perish and may I transmit to no one the aggravations and the disgrace of existence."

- Gustave Flaubert

 

"A coin is examined, and only after careful deliberation, given to a beggar, whereas a child is flung out into the cosmic brutality without hesitation."

- Peter Wessel Zapffe

 

"Parents have a child, and in doing so they bring into the world a monster that kills everything it comes in contact with."

- Thomas Bernhard

 

"It is not the case that one can create new people on the assumption that if they are not pleased to have come into existence they can simply kill themselves. Once somebody has come into existence and attachments with that person have been formed, suicide can cause the kind of pain that makes the pain of childlessness mild by comparison. Somebody contemplating suicide knows (or should know) this. This places an important obstacle in the way of suicide. One’s life may be bad, but one must consider what affect ending it would have on one’s family and friends. There will be times when life has become so bad that it is unreasonable for the interests of the loved ones in having the person alive to outweigh that person’s interests in ceasing to exist."

- David Benatar

 

"Not having children derives not from dislike, but from love too great to bring them into this world, too limited, too vain, too cruel."

- Michel Onfray

 

"And when I think my thinking rouses me to blame he who created me, and I gave peace to my children for they are in the bliss of the abyss which surpasses all the pleasures of the world, and had they been born they would’ve endured misery."

- Abū al-ʿAlāʾ al-Maʿarrī

 

"The argument that coming into existence is always a harm can be summarized as follows: Both good and bad things happen only to those who exist. However, there is a crucial asymmetry between the good and the bad things. The absence of bad things, such as pain, is good even if there is nobody to enjoy that good, whereas the absence of good things, such as pleasure, is bad only if there is somebody who is deprived of these good things.

The implication of this is that the avoidance of the bad by never existing is a real advantage over existence, whereas the loss of certain goods by not existing is not a real disadvantage over never existing."

- David Benatar

 

"Depressed, negative, and pessimistic people were often treated like lepers in this world. It was as though people feared catching what they had. Perhaps because what they were saying made sense?

Hell, if everybody would see the world as it truly was, we’d all be depressed. But if that were the case, there wouldn’t even be any people. For nobody would want to bring a child into this fucked up world if they truly understood the sorry state of things. The fact that we kept on breeding showed that delusion was necessary for the continuation of the species."

- Keijo Kangur

 

"In all our actions, including those that appear selfless, we are in search of some kind of pleasure, even if it is only the pleasure of self-esteem. But while our desire for pleasure is infinite, our mental and physical organs are capable only of limited and temporary pleasures; and this mismatch between desire and capacity dooms us to perpetual dissatisfaction. There is no pleasure big or total enough to quench, even momentarily, our thirst for pleasure.

But since the absence of pleasure is pain, it follows that we are always in pain, even when we might believe otherwise. And if life is nothing but an unbroken experience of pain, it would be better for every human being never to have been born."

- Giacomo Leopardi

 

"Her reaction had not been unusual. Anti-natalism—the idea that humans should not breed—was not a popular view. Not even amongst most green freaks. This despite the fact that all the troubles that existed in the world existed solely because of human beings.

Despite the obviousness of this idea, admitting this to the average person was like confessing to a murder. Even in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where all that existed was misery and squalor, humans, in their never-ending capacity for delirium, would without a doubt still continue bringing new people into this world instead of realizing that doing so was both cruel and insane. That was how strongly the delusion that life was good was embedded into us. It had to be since otherwise there wouldn’t be any humans around. Life was like a pyramid scheme that had to be constantly shoved down the throats of new victims in order to keep the scam going."

- Keijo Kangur

 

"What foolishness it is to desire more life, after one has tasted a bit of it and seen the world; for each day, after each endless day, piles up ever more misery into a mound. As for pleasures: once we have passed youth they vanish away, never again to be seen.
Death is the end of all.
Never to be born is the best thing. To have seen the daylight and be swept instantly back into dark oblivion comes second."

- Sophocles

 

"There was also the church where my aunt’s funeral had been held. I remembered standing over her open casket and looking at her lifeless body. She had looked so peaceful. Although it was a great tragedy for the people at the funeral that she was gone, some of them even openly weeping over her, in truth, death was only a tragedy to those left behind. For her, all her problems were over. For the people weeping over her, something valuable had been taken from their life without their consent. Their tears were born from selfishness."

- Keijo Kangur

 

"Life is a vale of tears and all human beings are miserable creatures, so I cannot take the responsibility for bringing yet another unhappy creature into the world."

- Etty Hillesum

 

"One naive pro-natalist assumption is that because death is a bad thing, procreation, which can be considered the antonym of death is a god thing, but the naive defect in that assumption is that it ignores the obvious fact that procreation is an essential (and the ultimate cause) of death."

- Jiwoon Hwang

 

"As soon as the child is born, the mother who has just brought him into the world must console him, quiet his crying, and lighten the burden of the existence she has given him. And one of the principal duties of good parents in the childhood and early youth of their children is to comfort them, to encourage them to live, because sorrows and ills and passions are at that age much heavier than they are to those who through long experience, or simply because they have lived longer, are used to suffering. And in truth it is only fitting that the good father and the good mother, in trying to console their children, correct as best they can, and ease, the damage they have done by procreating them. Good God! Why then is man born? And why does he procreate? To console those he has given birth to for having been born?"

- Giacomo Leopardi

 

"This is not to offer a general recommendation of suicide. Suicide, like death from other causes, makes the lives of those who are bereaved much worse. Rushing into one’s own suicide can have profound negative impact on the lives of those close to one. Although an Epicurean may be committed to not caring about what
happens after his death, it is still the case that the bereaved suffer a harm even if the deceased does not. That suicide harms those who are thereby bereaved is part of the tragedy of coming into existence. We find ourselves in a kind of trap. We have already come into existence. To end our existence causes immense pain to those we love and for whom we care. Potential procreators would do well to consider this trap they lay when they produce offspring."

- David Benatar

 

"Killing a person does not lead to nearly as much pain as creating a human being."

- Mokokoma Mokhonoana

 

"We celebrate life and mourn death. Yet life create death, and death create life. Every cradle is a grave. Why not celebrate death and mourn life?"

- Pelle Skogsberg

 

"There is a further (non-distributional) consideration that can affect an assessment of a life’s quality. Arguably, once a life reaches a certain threshold of badness (considering both the amount and the distribution of its badness), no quantity of good can outweigh it, because no amount of good could be worth that badness. It is just this assessment that Donald (‘Dax’) Cowart made of his own life—or at least of that part of his life following a gas explosion that burnt two-thirds of his body. He refused extremely painful, life-saving treatment, but the doctors ignored his wishes and treated him nonetheless. His life was saved, he achieved considerable success, and he reattained a satisfactory quality of life. Yet, he continued to maintain that these post-burn goods were not worth the costs of enduring the treatments to which he was subjected. No matter how much good followed his recovery, this could not outweigh, at least in his own assessment, the bad of the burns and treatment that he experienced."

- David Benatar

 

"On all of us was forced life; and, on almost all of us, the desire to remain alive."

- Mokokoma Mokhonoana

 

"To bear children into this world is like carrying wood to a burning house."

- Peter Wessel Zapffe

 

"Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself."

- Philip Larkin

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@Roy @Rajneeshpuram Yes, when it comes to the overpopulation of the planet we have to take measures.

@Blackhawk But when it comes to the elimination of all 'sentient beings' to keep them from suffering, the approach of anti-natalism is a rather limiting perspective. I think Leo's latest video explains this very well. We actually need form (and therefore suffering) to make the universe complete.

I'm not saying that birth is any better than death. The anti-natalist avoidance of birth is just as fear-based as the fear of death, so ask yourself how helpful that can be. Ultimately, both birth and death exist (at least on some relative level) and petty human ideas do not have the power to change the way the universe works. This should be integrated rather than rejected.

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God created women and wombs, he created the semen as well. That is Nature.

It is up to us to use what we got to reach God or to reach pleasure.

The West is seeking pleasure. Even when they seek God they seek him for pleasure.

that why you hear arguments about anti-natalism coming from science and the west, they are a cult. 

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@Judi The universe would be fine and complete without suffering/conscious beings. It would be a better universe.

It's not about fear, it's about suffering.

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