GreenWoods

Solipsism Recontextualized!

33 posts in this topic

Yesterday I had insights which recontextualized my solipsism awakenings.

If the idea of solipsism makes you depressed, read this post!

 

The only way I manage to convey my insights is by going through some mental gymnastics, so please forgive that. ?

 

  • 1. Absoluteness of this moment 

When you wake up you realize that this moment right now is Absolute. 

And it is obvious that every moment is Absolute, when it happens, but as other moments are just your imagination right now, this is not true from the Absolute perspective but from - let's call it the "bigger perspective". (This kind of "bigger perspective" will be used later again.)

 

  •  2.  The 3 Perspectives

- A. Normal Perspective;

For example a materialist.

- B. Solipsism Perspective: 

It is seen that past, future and external world are your imagination. 

- C. Expanded Perspective:

I hope you already heard of the possibility of splitting your consciousness. Your consciousness is of course not split, this is just the way people ended up calling it, instead you could say your consciousness expands. Rather than there being one bubble 'within your' consciousness, there can be many. (Actually there is no expanding, but rather a changing/shapeshifting of current appearances (which happens in a way that makes it seem like expanding).)

Here are reports of people doing it during astral projections and lucid dreams. It is certainly possible in our 'realm' too. One example (the most radical example) is Ethan ( @Synchronicity). Read this post.

I never read the Ra books, but I suppose this is what is meant with social memory complex. I guess in the future humans will merge their bubbles together. The way I see it, this can be in different ways. For example, let's say you, Leo, Trump and Biden merge your bubbles. This could happen in a way, where your bubble has access to the bubble of others, while they don't have access to other bubbles, and don't even realize that they are in a super bubble. It's of course also possible that several or all are conscious of other bubbles.

 

  • 3. The Actuality of solipsism from the Absolute perspective:

- A: Normal Perspective:

Most people believe that other people are real. They imagine this and so this is, in a sense, real for them.

- B: Solipsism Perspective:

It is seen that others are imaginary. Here, solipsism is Absolutely True.

- C: Expanded Perspective 

Here you are directly consicous of other bubbles. Thus conventional solipsism is obviously not true. If there is a merge of 5 bubbles, then that is the new solipsism. The ultimate super bubble is the one which contains every single bubble (see Ethan's post).

 Here it is also recognized that this present moment (which can contain bubbles of past and future, because this present moment or super bubble is beyond time) is Absolute. Therefore solipsism is Absolutely False (from that perspective).

 

  • 4. How each of the 3 Perspectives looks at the other perspectives:

-A:  Normal perspective

Perspective 2 and 3 are believed to be insane and false. So from that perspective solispism could be considered false.

 

- B:  Solipsism Perspective:

Perspective 1 and 3 are both imagination. They are completely meaningless and merely mental noise.

So from this 'perspective' solipsism is still Absolutely True.

 

- C: Expanded Perspective:

solipsism is Absolutely False.

 

 

  • 5. The truth of solipsism from the "bigger perspective":

- B: Solipsism Perspective 

In a sense, solipsim is false from the normal perspective (as mentioned earlier). But from the solipsism perspective it is seen that for people in the normal perspective, solipsim is true also. Ultimately, other people are for the normal-perspective people just imagination, in the same way as for the solipsism-perspective people.

Basically, the solipsism perspective can be regarded to be meta and higher than the normal perspective (when looked from the relative/bigger perspective). Therefore the truth from the solipsism perspective is higher than that of the normal perspective. (when seen from that bigger perspective. From the absolute perspective, each present moment, each truth, is equally Absolutely True). Therefore it can in some sense be said that solipsism is absolute. It is true in every now moment. 

But hold on...

 

- C: Expanded Perspective

This is the big insight I had, which recontextualized my solipsism awakenings:

In the exact same way that the solipsism perspective is meta and higher than the normal perspective, and therefore recontextualizes the normal perspective, and imposes its truth over the normal perspective......... in that exact same way is the expanded perspective meta and higher than the solipsism perspective, and therefore recontextualizes it and imposes its truth over it, and thus from a bigger perspective, solipsism is not true

In the exact same way how someone from the solispsim perspective concludes that solipsim is basically absolutely true, true in every now moment, in that exact same way does someone from the expanded perspective conclude that solipsism is absolutely false, false in every now moment!!!

Which means, from that perspective, which could be considered the highest perspective (from a bigger/relative perspective) solipsism is always false, no matter how it seems to you.

This effectively means, that other people have their own bubble too :)

It even means that birth actually happened lol.

 

You could also see it like this: When there is a moment when someone is not conscious of God, and believes that God doesn't exist, in a sense, that becomes true and God literally doesn't exist. Because the present moment is Absolute and there is nothing behind the scenes. When God imagines to be not-God, God literally becomes not-God, in a sense. But from God consciousness you realize and know for a fact, that God imagining to be not-God, ist still God.

In the exact same way: When you are in solipsism consciousness there are no others, and it is Absolutely True, because every moment is Absolute. However, someone who experiences the expanded experience, realizes and knows for a fact that others still exist even for someone being in solipsism consciousness. In the exact same way you in God consciousness realize that even not-God is still God.

!!!!

 

 

  • 6. Objections

 

  • Objection 1: " The expanded perspective doesn't recontextualize the solipsism perspective in the exact same way that the solipsism perspective recontextualizes the normal perspective"

You might say that solipsism is true both in the normal experience and solipsism experience. And the only difference between the solipsism experience and normal experience is, that solipsim is recognized (and apart from that recognition, they are identical. (let's ignore alteration of consciousness for a moment)).

While the difference between the solipsim experience and expanded experience is enormous. Extra stuff is added, therefore the comparison I made is bs.

But actually, the difference is of the same kind. There is what is, one appearance. In order to get from normal experience to solipsism experience, there is a small shapeshifting of that appearance. And in order to get from solipsism experience to expanded experience, some shapeshifting happens too, nothing else.  The change is of the exact same kind, it's merely a difference in degree.

 

  • Objection 2: "All that is imagination"

When you are in solipsism consciousness right now, all of that is imagination and has no meaning. So for you, solipsism is still Absolutely True.

You can look at it like this:

Depending on what experience/state of consciousness you are in right now, following is true:

1. Normal Experience:

  • solipsism is absolutely false (bigger perspective)

2. Solipsism Experience:

  • solipsim is Absolutely True (solipsim perspective)
  • solipsism is absolutely false (bigger perspective)

3. Expanded Experience:

  • solipsism is Absolutely False (Bigger Perspective, which is now Absolute)
  • solipsism is absolutely false (bigger perspective)

 

I'm not necessarily saying you should completely dismiss solipsism. Because it is still true in some sense, always depends on how you look at it. And it is a component of God Consciousness. If you want to get into God consciousness, you won't get around solipsism. However, that is not absolutely true. This just happens to be the case at our current evolutionary stage. There are infinitely many now moments which consist of many bubbles (thus solipsism is Absolutely False from that state of consciousness), and that whole super bubble can be in God consciousness. In that sense, solipsism (the way we define it) is not an absolute part of God consciousness. Only for us humans, it currently is the case. 

The purpose of that post was to show, that while solipsim is, in some sense true, it is also false (there are more perspectives from where it is false than from where it is true). And given how many get depressed because of thinking that solipsism is absolutely true, I hope this post helps and gives a different picture.

 

 

 

 

Soooooo, what are your thoughts? :)

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@GreenWoods Why do you need such a complicated answer? 

Isn't this a case of the mind arguing with the mind. Mind vs Mind. Mind still wins

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@GreenWoods Why do you need such a complicated answer? 

It is the simplest answer to convey that understanding. Any answer which is simpler, conveys a different understanding. And all of these other answers/understandings conveyed that solipsim is absolutey true.

And this is the first (the first that I am aware of) answer/understanding which conveys that solispsim is absolutely false.

So it is significant, it has been very significant for me at least.

 

"Isn't this a case of the mind arguing with the mind. Mind vs Mind. Mind still wins"

The purpose of these contemplations are not to silence the mind, to transcend the mind or to become enlightened. But about understanding whether others are real from that "bigger perspective".

Edited by GreenWoods

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@GreenWoods So you made up an argument for why solipsim is false and then declared it to be absolutely true?

What if this entire story about solipsim isn't even true?

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@GreenWoods So you made up an argument for why solipsim is false and then declared it to be absolutely true?

If we consider the expanded perspective from our current state of consciousness, then solipsism is absolutely false. But not Absolutely False. 

I think that my argument is true (unless I made a mistake somewhere). But a nuanced understanding of what is meant with "true" is required. It should be clear from that post that things can be true and True and false and False all at once, depending on how you look at them

7 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

 

What if this entire story about solipsim isn't even true?

You mean that solipsim might not be true from God consciousness?

Have you been in deep God consciousness?

Edited by GreenWoods

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Just now, GreenWoods said:

You mean that solipsim might not be true from God consciousness?

Have you been in deep God consciousness?

No I haven't. My highest insight was a crown chakra and third eye opening that completely shifted my perspective and pov.

I'm just speaking to the fact that if this concept or thought about solipsism is causing you suffering, then you might be overthinking it and there's a more subtle solution than arguing with yourself to such great length.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

you might be overthinking it and there's a more subtle solution than arguing with yourself to such great length.

If you are aware of one, feel free to share :D

Edited by GreenWoods

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One of the finest post topics i've seen here in 2021.

Thank you, GreenWoods!


"I believe you are more afraid of condemning me to the stake than for me to receive your cruel and disproportionate punishment."

- Giordano Bruno, Campo de' Fiori, Rome, Italy. February 17th, 1600.

Cosmic pluralist, mathematician and poet.

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I think a lotta people have trouble separating the absolute from the relative for practical reasons. Relatively speaking solipsism is untrue, but in absolute terms you could sorta argue it to be true although I usually see solipsism as a ego based "everything in my little brain is all I know to be true" vs non-dual terms where there is nobody to experience anything at all; it's truly a void as loving and infinite as that void may be, but it's an incredibly peaceful one that definitely improves perspective. God itself is however not a perspective at all, and it's infinite nature makes understanding 100% of it literally impossible. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

Here it is also recognized that this present moment (which can contain bubbles of past and future, because this present moment or super bubble is beyond time) is Absolute. Therefore solipsism is Absolutely False (from that perspective).

This is what I was trying to explain in some other posts.

It's implications are radical, cause being that "superbubble" beyond time, and time only being "real" inside each bubble, there's no difference beetween people you interact with and dead people.

My present experience does not exist as an actuality out there anyomore than Albert Einstein does from your bubble's POV.

To think otherwise is to take time as real an beyond consciousness, which is of course false.

It's all superposed in Infinity beyond time.

Edited by Fran11

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The funny thing is, if you 'subjectively' can't tell the difference between 'real' and 'imaginary', there is effectively no difference.

This means it doesn't matter if there are 'really' others, or if it only 'seems like' there are others. 

Is this conversation 'really' happening between 'me' and 'you', or does it just 'really' seem like it?  Makes no difference. 

 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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Posted (edited)

@Fran11 how will you know, subjectively, what is 'really' Truth from what 'seems like' Truth?  Will it 'seem' to be True? 

Edited by Mason Riggle

"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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3 hours ago, Eternal Unity said:

One of the finest post topics i've seen here in 2021.

Thank you, GreenWoods!

@Eternal Unity You're welcome :)

 

 

3 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@GreenWoods If this becomes a problem for me on the path then I'll have to see 

@Raptorsin7 If you go deep enough, you will probably eventually have to deal with it.

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2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

. Relatively speaking solipsism is untrue, but in absolute terms you could sorta argue it to be true 

@Ry4n Yes, but only if you are in solipsism consciousness at that moment.

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

 I usually see solipsism as a ego based "everything in my little brain is all I know to be true" vs non-dual terms where there is nobody to experience anything at all; it's truly a void as loving and infinite as that void may be, but it's an incredibly peaceful one 

When I use the word "solipsism" I don't refer to the classical definition, rather to an upgraded non-dual one. So, your descripton of "non-dual" is not contradicted by solipsism.

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

. God itself is however not a perspective at all, 

I might sometimes have treated it like a perspective. I wanted to keep things as simple as possible. 

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

, and it's infinite nature makes understanding 100% of it literally impossible. 

That's my view too.

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2 hours ago, Fran11 said:

This is what I was trying to explain in some other posts.

It's implications are radical, cause being that "superbubble" beyond time, and time only being "real" inside each bubble, there's no difference beetween people you interact with and dead people.

My present experience does not exist as an actuality out there anyomore than Albert Einstein does from your bubble's POV.

To think otherwise is to take time as real an beyond consciousness, which is of course false.

It's all superposed in Infinity beyond time.

@Fran11 Spot on?

Some days ago you made a post about becoming inanimate objects. I think this is probably the most direct way how humans will merge in the future.

When you became an object, you stopped being Fran11, but with enough practice you will be able to remain aware of the Fran11 bubble at the same time, thus Fran11 bubble and the object's bubble are both 'within your' consciousness. And eventually other people and animals could join too.

 

2 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

The funny thing is, if you 'subjectively' can't tell the difference between 'real' and 'imaginary', there is effectively no difference.

This means it doesn't matter if there are 'really' others, or if it only 'seems like' there are others. 

@Mason Riggle When you are in a normal state of consciousness, you can't tell the difference whether other people have their own bubble or not. So in a sense it is the same whether they have or don't. 

But practcially speaking it does make a huge difference.

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But in the experience of these multiple bubbles, is it not still one experience overall? There’s still just consciousness with multiple bubbles viewed simultaneously instead of one bubble. This doesn’t change anything to me. This is just proof that multiple bubbles can be experienced not that there are bubbles going on which we don’t experience. 
 

Is consciousness not still one in this example? 


LSD - A God Consciousness Experience (begins at 1:32) 
https://youtu.be/IOLw7_lbJtw

Experiences aren’t enlightenment. Enlightenment is what can span any experience or lack thereof. There is no such thing as a living enlightened person, but there can be the appearance of someone being alive who is in truth death itself. 

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21 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

 When you are in a normal state of consciousness, you can't tell the difference whether other people have their own bubble or not. So in a sense it is the same whether they have or don't. 

But practcially speaking it does make a huge difference.

Is there a state where you CAN tell the difference?

What 'huge difference' does it make whether or not people 'really' have their own bubble, or if it only 'seems' like they do? 

Consider: what's the difference between an apple that 'really' tastes like an apple, and one that only 'seems' to taste like an apple?  

 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

But in the experience of these multiple bubbles, is it not still one experience overall? There’s still just consciousness with multiple bubbles viewed simultaneously instead of one bubble. This doesn’t change anything to me. This is just proof that multiple bubbles can be experienced not that there are bubbles going on which we don’t experience. 
 

Is consciousness not still one in this example? 

@BipolarGrowth It can be considered one experience from some POVs, but not from all POVs.

Let's say there are 100 bubbles. All of them happen within one consciousness. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every bubble knows the stuff from all the other bubbles. 

You could be part of these 100 bubbles and know the other bubblee too. Or you could be part of them and not know the other bubbles.

 

It does look very contradictory. Like if it is one consciousness, then all should be known, otherwise it would have to be several consciousnesses.

But I think it actually is not contradictory. Let's say you are Consciousness, and imagine appearances. You imagine appearnces which make it seem like there are many bubbles. Then you imagine the Trump bubble in such a way that the thoughts, beliefs, 'perceptions' of that bubble are as though there is only this bubble.

So actually, there is only one Consciousness. And you believe that your consciousness is all there is, that it is the Whole Consciousness (and that is true from the Absolute perspective from that bubble !!!), but actually it is only a tiny fragment of the Whole, but it is structured in such a way that it seems like it is the Whole!!!

Again, this is from the bigger perspective, from the Absolute perspective (from that one bubble) all of that is nonsense. But the 'One' who actually has the Whole experience, of all bubbles (God), is conscious how your consciousness is just a fragment, and from that bigger POV, this is Absolute!!!

 

I'm struggling to make sense of it myself. But I have an intuition that it works somewhat like that. But I haven't fully translated that intuition into conscious understanding. Eventually I might understand it better.

Edited by GreenWoods

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