charlie cho

Reading "The Game", Who is Owen Cook, Attending his seminars, my first impressions

45 posts in this topic

Recently Leo recommended Owen Cook in his blog to learn some good things. I have also read "The Game" again. I thought deeply about who Owen Cook is. He's just a person, I know... 

but if you watch this, you also get a feel for what kind of person he is. I bought his masterclass course on pickup 5 months ago and it was outstanding. Reading "the Game", I had always admired Mystery for his drive to initiate his own ideas to make it his own reality and to actualize his dreams into the real world. Like Mystery in his early days, I feel very much in need of a mentor currently. Not just a mentor I can seek online like Tyler or Leo, but an actual leader who can guide me and teach me whether I encounter pitfalls or successes. But reading the game, I was curious to know who Tyler was. I watched him on YouTube at around 2014, and he was exactly how I imagined him. He was positive, motivated, outwardly loving, but there was something that I just didn't feel at ease with him even just watching him through my computer screen. I could see the small nuances of all his actions, trying to convey high status, trying to convey kindness so that he may get what he wanted from his viewers: validation. He reminded me so much of my father. My father, of course, was never expressive as much as Tyler, but he looked the same as he always said the right things, conveyed that he was kind, and never sought for power like other power hungry people. It was this that made my father so charismatic and loved that many would try to get close to him until my father would stab them from behind when they least expected it. At least, Neil Strauss demonstrated Tyler in that way. I immediately turned off Tyler's YouTube video and went on with my day. Right now, as you, the reader, is reading this, I worry that you think I still think of him this way. Yes, and no. After watching and reading so much of Tyler's content and about Tyler, I certainly have changed my views on him. 

It was five months ago when I bought his courses. Leo would constantly rave about Tyler in the forums (even though he talked a lot of shit about him, still I knew Leo approved of Tyler's content), so I gained massive trust in Tyler, at least of his competency, not his character though. I bought his course on pick up because I wanted to change my dating life for the better, but I put it into my mind that I would never adopt Tyler's personality as a person. I'll only adopt his advice on pick up. 

When I first consumed his courses, it didn't feel extraordinary to me. What was different though, was when I implemented the principles he taught in my infields. It was this that changed my whole perspective on Tyler. Now, I understood why Tyler may have had a problem with the Mystery Method. Thinking again of what I read, Mystery does seem to me a broken person and skitzophrenic. He is indeed very violent and unstable in how he treats others, and this nature of his, I think, has bled through his teachings  and to the followers of his content. Like Mystery, men wanted to fill an empty hole in their lives, so they create a dual persona in order to get women; when the girl approves of them, they soon fall down again to their despair, creating a dual cycle that was toxic and repetitive. 

Tyler's teachings are wholesome. That is not to say Tyler is wholesome. No, and he admits he isn't. Like a broken scientist, who lives a miserable life, can understand all the secrets of the universe, Tyler too was the same. He teaches authenticity, a positive collaborative attitude within social groups, holding good frames, and high vibration energy which are all very real concepts, no doubt, and he teaches them extremely well.

This reminds me of a Tibetan story of disciple who has a master who wasn't enlightened, a fraud. The master taught all the right concepts, but at the backdoor, he would do exactly the opposite of what he taught. The disciple, nonetheless, had so much faith that he would actualize everything his fraudulent master had taught. It did not matter that the master was a fraud. The responsibility relies on the student.  

To be honest, I believe Tyler really acts upon the things he teaches in his personal life: I don't think he is a hypocrite or power hungry like Neil Strauss would described him, at least consciously he's not. But I doubt that he is truly authentic, have a good vibration energy in his subconscious mind. I still think he subconsciously does things that are the totally opposite of what he teaches. Maybe, I should stop all these thoughts and just follow what the Tibetan disciple had done. Just have enough faith and stop caring whether the other is enlightened or not, just work on yourself. Stop judging others, judge yourself first. Don't mind whether the other is a fraud, even your teacher. Just mind whether you are a fraud. The responsibility lies on the student - this is what Mystery, who wasn't blessed with having many mentors, would repetitively say to people. 


Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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Bro, The Game is mostly a fictional book. You treat it as some kind of biographical study. Neil Strauss invented half of it from whole cloth to make it sell.

You need to distiguish sales BS from real life.

And this desire to idolize people you learn from is very problematic. No one ever said Owen is perfect. He's flawed like most humans are. His whole life comes from a deeply wounded place. That's what makes him relatable. Basically every pickup teacher comes from a wounded and dysfucntional place. But you can still learn gold from them if you pick and choose.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura i do think i idolize some teachers. I feel i cant learn from them unless i have respected them or submmitted to them in some way. I wrote this post, mostly out of my emotions. I tried not to filter anything out of my head when writing this so please understand that the post can sound illogical. I was trying to get myself out of my head. 

And how are you so sure half of the book was made up for sales. I heard you say you like self educating yourself above having a teacher mentor helping you. Ive always wondered about that because i am the exact opposite. Not that i dont see the importance of self study, just that i am intrigued how people like you are able to have so much confidence in themselves to learn something all alone. Maybe this unconfident feeling stemed my desire to idolize people. Who knows?

Anyways, how do you suppose i will distinguish sales and real life?

And, how am i supposed to learn from a person whom i dont idolize in some way?

And dude, that hurt my feelings, but i appreciate the feedback. Recently from meeting so many people going out, i felt i have this weird energy in me that aint healthy so much...

 

Edited by charlie cho

Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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44 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

@Leo Gura  i am intrigued how people like you are able to have so much confidence in themselves to learn something all alone. Maybe this unconfident feeling stemed my desire to idolize people. Who knows?

Watch my video: How Authority Works

I rely on myself because nothing out of a human's mouth can be trusted. It's all mostly bullshit and self-serving delusions.

Don't give your authority and sovereignty away to others, otherwise their epistemic errors will infect your mind. It's like you're having sex with infected people. Stop doing that. It's not safe. Be sovereign! You are God, after all.

Quote

Anyways, how do you suppose i will distinguish sales and real life?

Always be skeptical of sales and sales people and popular things.

It's well known that Neil Strauss exaggerated and distorted many parts of the book. What else would you expect from a PUA? PUAs don't have much integrity or honesty.

A PUA is gaming his customers as much as he games his women.

Quote

And, how am i supposed to learn from a person whom i dont idolize in some way?

Just take the ideas. The person is irrelevant.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What else would you expect from a PUA? PUAs don't have much integrity or honesty.

I am confused. From one side you tell women here that pick up makes you a more authentic, high value great guy that girls will enjoy and on other side you basically equate pick up and the people that practice it are not honest and do not have integrity which obviously does not make you a great guy nor enjoyable for girls.

Are you saying that pick up in itself makes you a better guy for girls but guys tend to abuse it hence the loss of honesty and integrity? Can a guy do pick up without manipulation?

Edited by Karmadhi

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Posted (edited)

@charlie cho @Karmadhi Both of you recommendation is to totally forget pickup and just focus on your awareness and connecting with others with the full intelligence of your being. Regardless think of how much more successful you’d be at pickup if you simply focused on connecting rather than trying to “pickup”. Seriously, you’re both straight dudes obviously, so flirting happens naturally from connecting with the vibe between you both, there’s no need to fabricate anything. Focusing on pickup solely totally puts you against the tide of a full actualisation that you would better achieve if you focused on my method. I meet new people all the time, no intention to have sex with any of the women because I already have a girlfriend (short term girlfriend long term friend - we’re not going to stay together forever at the very least because our visions of the future aren’t aligned, and well, there’s someone else that she knows about) but I could however my sole interest is to build healthy long term relationships.

Call it “ConnectUp” by ll Ontology ll.

Not vibing with the word “Up”. Ha. Seriously though.

Think of where you’re going to be in 20 years with your relationships, I’ve been down the track of aimless sex it’s never as good as they make it out to be because eventually you’ll just realise how deluded you were being about it in the first place. How about sweet, hot, intimate sex with someone who truly fucking gets you, that’s really similar to you, that’s aligned with your future direction and that’s going to wake up in the morning with your cock in their mouth or vice versa (vagina)? Honestly though I think most guys are too far gone, not aware enough, too brainwashed by the so called “no group think society” to really develop the relationship maturity they need to. I look at most guys and I’m like shit, I am so lucky to have the awareness I have, but you have to cultivate that awareness, be determined to solely focus on it at the exclusion of everything else. Don’t get caught up in these nonsense stories, these people run a business for crying out loud, wake up.

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@ll Ontology ll Not always true. I am amaizing at connecting with people at a deep level very fast and having fun with them but i suck hard at flirting. It does not come naturally to me at all so i never do it normally. For me forcing myself to flirt is helpful and i have been trying to do that recently whenever i can. If it comes naturally for you then good for you, you can just act normal and shit will happen your way.

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I was mostly referring to PUA coaches and pros.

You can do pickup ethically, but very few people do. Most PUAs come from a wounded and traumatized past and they fall into toxic stage Orange selfishness.

In general I don't have a high opion of pickup, but it will get you laid. If you are struggling to get laid, it works for that, but you must beware of the toxic and selfish habits you'll likely absorb along the way.

Pickup is sort of a necessary evil for guys who suck with women. Guys who suck with girls need help. They cannot just be left to wallow in their misery because that will be even more toxic. So pickup serves that function. But it will introduce its own toxicity as price of entry which you will later have to transcend.

Pickup does make you a better guy if you use it right. But there is a cost, and many guys who get better just abuse their new high value by using it selfishly.

There are also many degrees of becoming a better guy. My standards are pretty high.

If you want high integrity, pickup is not how you build that. Pickup is about become good at socializing.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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I love how Alex describes mystery and rsd. This weird energy is one of the things I noticed a lot. "CONTROLLING" 


Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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Posted (edited)

@charlie cho @Karmadhi I feel like I'm on Entourage but all the main characters are depressed. No seriously connecting is all you need and its not analogous to the "same bullshit advice", for clarity, connecting on not just a "friendly" level is something we learn to do via experience by first genuinely connecting with ourselves and our self expression as opposed to something that we *just are* in the expression of "just be yourself". Secondly I'm just going to assume neither of you are virgins, in which case think back to when you first had sex (or just ever), did the experience become better or worse when you felt like you were connecting more with the other person?

Connection is a multifaceted construct, it operates not just on an emotional and sexual level but more importantly, an understanding level to say the least. If you can understand what the person wants through your empathy, you can give them a wild experience which is why relationships crash and burn and peak at the level of understanding the two people have of one another. So be careful about how your knee jerk reactions in relation to the word connect dictate your perspective and openness, it goes to the core of mother fucking reality and why any of this shit is possible in the first place.

The duality of male and female in order for that to achieve a bridge between its divide abstractly relies on forms of connection in order for said duality to break down so don't give me this shit please about "connection can just be equated to the same bullshit advice", look I get it, its totally annoying to continually feel like someone is telling you that running water is Gatorade because that's what it feels like a lot of the time when many of these people in the personal development industry talk but in this instance you're both wrong in your interpretation and need to expand your perception on what it encompasses. You look at any compatibility metric within a relationship and guess what you're looking at? The ability for people to connect on that metric, whether its physical, emotional, existential, intellectual or whatever the fuck chemistry.

Focus solely on the facets of connection, think logically from there and everything will workout where its meant to workout, you might have to face some cold hearted truths along the way but that's what this forum is for you've gotta lotta people here that are ready to dish out their advice like teachers in Sunday school with kids in afternoon detention. Accept that you're wrong here but feel free to ask a lot more questions and if you're genuine and you ask the right people you'll get closer to the right answers including those from yourself. 

I'm right here. There's no way around it other than us expanding on the point of me being right.

Edited by ll Ontology ll

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@Leo Gura How does one do pickup with integrity?

I'm 25 and i basically never approached a girl, and i have always been introverted and poor at socializing.

Although i see everything as God, so my personality has balanced quite a bit, and i'm continuing to make progress. The need for sex as a social validation thing has basically gone to zero, since there's no one/only me. And most of my approach anxiety is gone (i'm not saying i'm perfect at it, there's still a lot of ego)

But still, i am questioning and putting in balance the lack of integrity that comes from not going through the pickup stage, and the lack of integrity that comes from doing it. It's tricky for me to figure out which one is the least Zen Devilish xD  

Do you have any advice on this?

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54 minutes ago, Bogdan said:

And most of my approach anxiety is gone (i'm not saying i'm perfect at it, there's still a lot of ego)

You haven't even done one approach. So don't kid yourself.

For you, keep it simple: find venues in your town where women hang out and start approaching. Go out at least 3 nights a week and try to do 5-10 approaches per night.

That's basically it. Nothing about this should break integrity.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You haven't even done one approach. So don't kid yourself.

For you, keep it simple: find venues in your town where women hang out and start approaching. Go out at least 3 nights a week and try to do 5-10 approaches per night.

That's basically it. Nothing about this should break integrity.

Yep, that makes sense :D 

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura Dude. Can I ask specific pick up advice from you. 

I already knew this german girl meeting her in a house party and we had a good talk and connected quite well. We then went to a club with her friends, and that club was too loud I wasn't able to talk with her very much. And whenever she goes to that specific club, she closes and suddenly doesn't like to talk to me even though she would only talk to me outside the club. That was a month ago. I didn't pursue her very much because .... whatever.... I didn't feel like she was that pretty

She DMed me many times commenting on how I look good when I put gel on my hair. I invited her to my house parties 2 times, but I didn't talk to her much. 

Yesterday, I met her again with her friends and I realize she's really pretty than I ever thought. me and my wingman met with her friend in the street coincidentally, and decided to go to a park next to a river in the middle of the city. She's a college student, so I helped her with her hw for fun, we talked a lot, I was a little bit physical not overtly of course since she had a lot of her friends there. Definitely for fuck's sake we flirted. It wasn't a friend vibe. There were many cool guys there, and she would only talk to me, it's not like there were only her friends. Definitely, I think I'm really good at talking. 

But then, we again went to that shitty fucking club. You can't hear what the other person is saying even with talking near the other's ear. Then she did the same bullshit again where she couldn't hear me, and do nothing. 

Recently, I was working on my text game. Anyways, before I would ask her out to coffee the next day, I've just texted her the next day and tried to chat her up. Made her laugh a little bit. I asked what she was doing the tomorrow. She said she was meeting her friends. I said then let's meet in the afternoon. Then she said she had classes. (man it's like we are in a club again) I said, then, okay invite me to meet your friends. 

next day, no answer. She did the no answer tactic once before, so I teased her saying she's probably popular. She complied with saying that she's just lazy. Was my answer "invite me to meet your friends" too overt? . Did I not create social capital enough? Or am I too impatient. Or do I suck with text game. She is really intense in a way where she can be really direct. She has that DARK look in her, kinda like Marla Singer in Fight club but also physically like dark colors. Was asking for coffee with her a bad idea? I'm not a very DARK guy. (seeing from just how I write, you may know) I'm a very positive guy. This girl is hard man.

Do I text her again if she doesn't answer my "invite me to meet your friends" text. Do I just give up on her. How do I pursue this marla singer german girl

Edited by charlie cho

Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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@charlie cho dude shes using you for attention or backup in case she doesnt have anything to do if she had interest she would give you another day to hang out and being around firends is terrible idea you probably hesitated too much with talking and didnt make a "move" on time

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Posted (edited)

I'm the guy who minds his own business.@NoSelfSelf you must be the guy who is retarded. I didn't ask you you dumb ass. Especially dumb asses like you who can't read fully a simple post. 

Edited by charlie cho

Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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@charlie cho there you go she can smell that weakness a mile away hope you become more loving towards yourself peace <3

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2 hours ago, charlie cho said:

@Leo Gura Dude. Can I ask specific pick up advice from you. 

Do not take girls into the club. Take them out of the club.

Taking a girl into a club is terrible for logistics. You want to isolate her in quiet area to build rapport and begin seduction. It's hard to do that in a club. You need better date location ideas.

Quote

next day, no answer. She did the no answer tactic once before, so I teased her saying she's probably popular. She complied with saying that she's just lazy. Was my answer "invite me to meet your friends" too overt? .

1) You are being too needy

2) You are making her the prize and she knows it. Stop making her feel like you are beneath her. She needs to feel that you are above her.

You should have instead teased her: "Your friends are all imaginary" or "Your friends hate you". This sets the proper frame of you being above her. You did the opposite, making yourself look like a pathetic loser with no friends who is trying to get into her party.

Quote

Did I not create social capital enough? Or am I too impatient. Or do I suck with text game. She is really intense in a way where she can be really direct. She has that DARK look in her, kinda like Marla Singer in Fight club but also physically like dark colors. Was asking for coffee with her a bad idea? I'm not a very DARK guy. (seeing from just how I write, you may know) I'm a very positive guy. This girl is hard man.

Do I text her again if she doesn't answer my "invite me to meet your friends" text. Do I just give up on her. How do I pursue this marla singer german girl

Let a few days pass without pestering her with your neediness.

Then try to make her laugh a bit and then ask out for coffee or something like that. No clubs, no friends. Those are all obstacles.

And stop putting her on a pedestal. You need to be cooler than her. YOU are the prize, not her. She should feel lucky to get a coffee with you. You've got it all backwards. Stop acting like a needy girl and start acting like a man.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura lol! dude! Thanks for the feedback! That hurt... again!  To be more specific, it went like this because I saw her eyes go red when I was in the club

me: Still in the FF club? U feeling okay? Saw your eyes go red

her:; cause I cried haha

me: what you cry for

(after two days)

me: haha, thanks for ignoring the text

her: sorry it's a habit

me: It's probably because you're popular (she liked the comment)

me: just curious, do you have extremely a lot of tattoos on your arms? (she told me she hated her own tattoos, I wanted to see it but she wouldn't let me see it. She doesn't like to show her arms. So I asked her)

her: no I'm just lazy haha

her: uhhmmmm no not too many

me: (Seeing her instagram right away) what is that?

her: chocolate

me: I thought you lived in FF club, (because she had a book below the chocolate. And because she physiognomy was an intense figure, i didn't ever think she would study at all) You're studying I suppose, you don't look like a studier

her: :D:D:D( laughing crying face emjoji

her: (a picture of the ff club poster on her college dorm)

me: whats with it with you and ff .i its like you don't like other clubs. Now I remember I did see you other places. u doing anything tomorrow?

her: I barely go to that club anymore

her: I have plans with my friends.

me: at what time? Let's hang out at a cafe in the afternoon if your plans are at night

her: I have classes

me: Well then, why not invite me to hang out with your friends 

her: (no answer)

 

For fuck's sake. Like I get why you say I'm needy. But it's also in her personality though. When we were flirting, she liked to tease me that I'm a pussy and a coward. Me and this other girl was talking about harry potter. This girl was saying she was a slytherin in the harry potter test, and I told her I was a hufflepuff. The German girl that I like suddenly bolted in and said, "O I get why you're a hufflepuff. It's because you're a pussy." 

I said, "Then what are you?"

"Gryffindor"

"Gryffindor has a tendency to be brave.... good for you Lia. But also arrogant..." I saw her be really tough on people and be a bitch. I made fun of her many times for being an intense girl. But I liked that because I'm intense too. I can be very direct and be an asshole to my friends.

So, we played this sort of flirting many times where she calls me a bitch, and I say accept them because I know for sure I'm the baddest man there (I don't react like a beta male LOL), then I make fun of her backhandedly. 

So Leo, 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Do not take girls into the club. Take them out of the club.

Taking a girl into a club is terrible for logistics. You want to isolate her in quiet area to build rapport and begin seduction. It's hard to do that in a club. You need better date location ideas.

1) You are being too needy

2) You are making her the prize and she knows it. Stop making her feel like you are beneath her. She needs to feel that you are above her.

You should have instead teased her: "Your friends are all imaginary" or "Your friends hate you". This sets the proper frame of you being above her. You did the opposite, making yourself look like a pathetic loser with no friends who is trying to get into her party.

Let a few days pass without pestering her with your neediness.

Then try to make her laugh a bit and then ask out for coffee or something like that. No clubs, no friends. Those are all obstacles.

And stop putting her on a pedestal. You need to be cooler than her. YOU are the prize, not her. She should feel lucky to get a coffee with you. You've got it all backwards. Stop acting like a needy girl and start acting like a man.

Do I show her that I have a lot of friends? That I have a lot of girls? Did you see where I have gone wrong reading the above. As you know, I can never pretend to be alpha. Ironically, when I do that, I look more beta because girls see right through that I'm pretending. Man it's just confusing AF. Thanks anyways Leo. 

I'll just do what you say. Not pester her. And put myself as a prize. Girls don't want to feel pedestaled and I may have done that with my texts without such purposes. Make myself be cool to have coffee with. 

I have this problem with my guy friends. When I'm in a social gathering, I'm always the leader of men. But as soon as I text people with the phone, people think I'm a needy bitch. Is it the way I write? Have I read too much Russian novels? I find I write emotionally rather than logically so my writing is prone to make people feel it is illogical. anyways, really appreciate the help. 

Edited by charlie cho

Movie Scene of the Game: Crisis Core Director Lazard: By the way what is your dream, to become a first, is it? Zack: Nope. It's to become a Hero! Director Lazard: Is it so. Quite a sad dream but a good one nonetheless Zack:(

My Instagram: 조상범 charlie (@charlie887) If you can, I always like to talk about important things with people in more depth, be it spirituality, science, religion, or business

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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Do not take girls into the club. Take them out of the club.

Taking a girl into a club is terrible for logistics. You want to isolate her in quiet area to build rapport and begin seduction. It's hard to do that in a club. You need better date location ideas.

1) You are being too needy

2) You are making her the prize and she knows it. Stop making her feel like you are beneath her. She needs to feel that you are above her.

You should have instead teased her: "Your friends are all imaginary" or "Your friends hate you". This sets the proper frame of you being above her. You did the opposite, making yourself look like a pathetic loser with no friends who is trying to get into her party.

Let a few days pass without pestering her with your neediness.

Then try to make her laugh a bit and then ask out for coffee or something like that. No clubs, no friends. Those are all obstacles.

And stop putting her on a pedestal. You need to be cooler than her. YOU are the prize, not her. She should feel lucky to get a coffee with you. You've got it all backwards. Stop acting like a needy girl and start acting like a man.

I have a question

What Kind of Date location ideas where i can seduce her and build rapport and do the Kino, i am worried if i do Kino in a public place someone will record it then spread on facebook, i want to become wise here, tho i heard some guys can pull sex in swimming pool haha i am scared to pull that, can you give me suggestions and ideas and strategies for this one

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