Leo Gura

Who Wants A 2-hr Jordy P Analysis Video?

204 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, TheDao said:

@Leo Gura I don't know for who he votes. But careful with overregulating capitalism, it could do more harm than good .

Everything should be done in balance. unhinged capitalism is, has been and will be very destructive. 


"Now here's the Sun and it's alright, Now here's the Moon and It's alright..But every-time you close your eyes... Lies" -Arcade Fire Rebellion

Personal Growth Vlog - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzVkdPNRrNT7SN1aoco2MdA

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

He cries crocodile tears but will not vote for progress to fix corruption or climate change.

It's absurd.

Come back and tell me when JP actually votes for a politician who will fix predatory capitalism. Until then, it's all empty words and excuses.

From what you know of J.P., is it your sense that this due to him operating in Bad Faith and not actually giving a damn about fixing Predatory Capitalism and addressing Climate Change?

Or do you think it's more a case that he isn't developed enough to recognize how his own biases are preventing him from thinking systematically about Societal Issues?

Sometimes it can be hard to tell whether an otherwise Intelligent person at the lower Value Memes truly doesn't recognize that something is a problem, or whether they do recognize but don't actually care enough to try and fix it.

I kind of get the sense that he has extreme tunnel vision for monomyths as a normative force for fixing the perceived deficiencies of modern society, but I'd be interested to hear whether or not you agree.

Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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Men failing at life at a higher rate need not be a cultural issue to fix. xD It's like feminists complaining about the wage gap when that's really a product of innate feminine nature.

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Ok I just finished the Jordan Peterson video. Was a great episode Leo. Here's a few thoughts I had through it tho - 

 

Wouldn't you say Jordan Peterson on the whole is doing good work as he is helping people who maybe grew up in an orange or green environment who maybe struggle with discipline or those other stage blue values to help integrate them? 

 

I feel like your emphasis is on moving people up the spiral but isn't it an integral persons job to help people express healthy versions of their stage which even if JP isn't integral this is what he's doing with blue. 

There was a part where you talk about individualism vs collectivism and stage blue being collective and then it goes individual again. The point you made was on a poisoning and mercury being a collective issue. After reading the religion of tomorrow  Wilber shows that the earlier stages think about their politics in terms of the individual (1st person, second person) and as you move into modernity you can see the world from 3rd person and think about collective issues.  (I, WE, IT, ITS)

I was wondering why you never talk about the 4 quadrants and leave this completely out of your teachings when theres so much value to this? 

There was also a part of the episode where you talked about once all value systems are taken away then there's no distinctions between good or bad then you can love easier. I am feeling this is a problem with spiral dynamics for me - I feel by making distinctions of groups of ppl especally when some are considered higher or lower stages these distinctions can be a problem for me and make it easier to judge other groups/ people. 

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@andyjohnsonman

5 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Ok I just finished the Jordan Peterson video. Was a great episode Leo. Here's a few thoughts I had through it tho - 

 

Wouldn't you say Jordan Peterson on the whole is doing good work as he is helping people who maybe grew up in an orange or green environment who maybe struggle with discipline or those other stage blue values to help integrate them? 

 

I feel like your emphasis is on moving people up the spiral but isn't it an integral persons job to help people express healthy versions of their stage which is what Jordan is doing with blue. 

There was a part where you talk about individualism vs collectivism and stage blue being collective and then it goes individual again. The point you made was on a poisoning and mercury being a collective issue. After reading the religion of tomorrow  Wilber shows that the earlier stages think about their politics in terms of the individual (1st person, second person) and as you move into modernity you can see the world from 3rd person and think about collective issues.  (I, WE, IT, ITS)

I was wondering why you never talk about the 4 quadrants and leave this completely out of your teachings when theres so much value to this? 

 

   You brought up a good point. Maybe it should be on Leo's list of videos he makes, one about Ken Wilbur's integral theory, and one about Carl Jung's shadow work. However I think he did a video in the spiral dynamics series, not specifically on a stage but the overall application of the modal, which is probably why Leo might not do one about integral theory.

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2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@andyjohnsonman

   You brought up a good point. Maybe it should be on Leo's list of videos he makes, one about Ken Wilbur's integral theory, and one about Carl Jung's shadow work. However I think he did a video in the spiral dynamics series, not specifically on a stage but the overall application of the modal, which is probably why Leo might not do one about integral theory.

Yea i'm really starting to resonate more with integral theory (AQAL) than spiral dynamics alone lately

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Come back and tell me when JP actually votes for a politician who will fix predatory capitalism. Until then, it's all empty words and excuses.

JP keeps demonizing Trudeau, and keeps appearing on Ben Shapiro, Fox News, and Prager U, so yeah...

P.S. In Canada there's a wonderful progressive Jagmeet Singh, who's too progressive to ever win a race.


لا إله إلا الله، وليو رسول الله

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@Phyllis Wagner

6 hours ago, Phyllis Wagner said:

Do we really need to have a 1-hour God-Speech in every video now, no matter the topic? Actualized.org video start to feel like church.

   Of course we should, as this is Leo's highest value, teaching and vision for everyone and the world, at the moment. This is why it's crucial to pursue self actualisation, and discover your highest value to work towards. Even if at the highest potential it's leading to the same place, how you get there, how you impact others qnd the world around you, and what you create might be different.

   Included in his life purpose is teaching about love, infinity and god, so it makes sense to give a god speech at the end of most the videos. God forbid that we forget about god at some pointxD

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Men failing at life at a higher rate need not be a cultural issue to fix. xD

@AtheisticNondualityIts a curious systematic thing I seem to find. Men not being strong and succesfull getting relativized away. Seems like protecting the gender roles. With a huge price that is.  Actually what JP is doing with his a bit emotional speaking, building empathy for men, is breaking through stereotyped gender roles. Which is what is said to be feminism by some. Great Job!

Quote

It's like feminists complaining about the wage gap when that's really a product of innate feminine nature.

Or a product from intensive day to day pressures from birth to conform to gender stereotypes?

Edited by TheDao

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Posted (edited)

46 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

JP keeps demonizing Trudeau, and keeps appearing on Ben Shapiro, Fox News, and Prager U, so yeah...

Because those are the only ones who listen to his critiques, maybe? The others see it as a to big threat to be able to listen. Maybe he is a democrat, don't know actually. I don't know him that well.

Edited by TheDao

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura

I've watched the video.

I liked how you tell stage blue people thats not the real deal keep moving.

However,

I feel the vid was made with some agenda to push clicks and subscribers, and move in a certain direction for promotion, while using JP as the public name.

No, i can't prove it.

Just be your self, everything else will follow. People like you simply because they like what you offer. You have build a massive audience without that. Organic growth. 

Truth will come.

Edited by OneIntoOne

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7 hours ago, TheDao said:

I had very specific critique on why Jordan is very Green as well. 

If you think JP is very Green, you don't understand Spiral Dynamics. 

JP may have a smidgeon of Green, yet this is overwhelmed by his blue/orange anchors and massive Green shadow. 

The stages of purple, blue and green are community-based stages and each level has greater inclusion, egalitarianism, empathy and equity for a more expansive community. Blue is more expansive than Purple and Green is more expansive than both Purple and Blue. 

Purple and Blue contain a level of inclusion, empathy and equity - it is just at a lower level than Green. So saying JP displays empathy means nothing without context. A purple-level tribesman could show empathy for a fellow tribesman that was injured during a hunt.

As well, people are mixtures of stages. No one is 100% one stage. Each individual is within a social system that is a mixture of stages and each individual will be a influenced by that social system. It's more accurate to say someone is "centered" in a stage. For example, JP could be 40% blue, 50% Orange, 10% Green and 5% yellow, yet his small portion of Green could be overwhelmed by his Blue/Orange anchors and massive Green shadow. As well, his small portion of green and yellow would be used for a blue/orange agenda. 

Let's assume that JP was completely genuine while shedding tears for men that are struggling. Let's say that as a clinical psychologist, JP met with hundreds of men that were suffering and genuinely feels for them and wants to help them. Even if this is all true, it's not Green because his "community" is too contracted. Green community is more expansive and inclusive than men struggling with their gender. JP's community size would be more expansive than Purple, yet more contracted than Green. It would be like someone who felt for their fellow Catholics that are facing religious persecution. And this is being generous as we are assuming JP is completely generous and his constructs of gender are accurate. 

Assuming JP is genuine, the hint of green in JP would be him showing vulnerability and crying in front of others. That is counter to a standard blue/orange male role in which the man is the pillar of strength and doesn't express feminine emotions like crying. Assuming he is genuine, I would consider that green and it is good to show other men that it's ok for a man express 'feminine' emotions and cry. Yet this flash of green-ness does not put JP as very green. His structure is based on blue and orange constructs - not green. 

JP has stuff to offer in blue / orange to help bring up men through blue and into orange. This has value. Yet JPs poison is his intense green shadow and demonizing green as the cause of men's suffering. He characterizes men as victims. In the video you posted, he characterizes green as tyrants that are painting men as evil, misogynistic repressors. This is not a perspective of Green men. This is the perspective of blue men. 

A green perspective would acknowledge that a portion of men are struggling with identity. Yet a higher perspective can see how much of this is due to green-level progress that is expanding inclusion and community. Green level community is more expansive than blue. Green includes men, women, LGBTQ and doesn't have strict gender roles. This triggers blue/orange men like JP. Green is more progressive than than JP's center of gravity. 

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If you think JP is very Green, you don't understand Spiral Dynamics. 

 

@Forestluv Or you dont understand Jordan and are locked into paradigm lock with your version of feminism which is less inclusive then Jordans. He sees feminism has been failing men and because he sees the overview he purposfully focusses on that. He 'll kick Leos ass if he were aloud too speak . You are the one triggered and have difficulty listening to him not Jordan. Leo even called it crocodile tears. How defensive are you if you need to twist reality like that?

Edited by TheDao

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16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Or you dont understand Jordan and are locked into paradigm lock with your version of feminism which is less inclusive then Jordans. He sees feminism has been failing men and because he sees the overview he purposfully focusses on that. He 'll kick Leos ass if he were aloud too speak 

Of everything I wrote, you simply quote the first line and dismiss what I wrote? Did you even read and consider what I wrote? 

Rather than dismissing Jordan's view, I am including it in a larger view that includes his view. 

The view I offered of Jordan and SD is more inclusive than Jordan's view because it includes Jordan's view and more. That is a key feature of Spiral Dynamics - it includes previous stages and more.  It's not that Jordan's views are inherently 'wrong'. Rather, they are contracted and limited. 

It would be like you telling me that a map of Europe is less inclusive than a map of France. A map of Europe is more expansive because it includes France and more. A map of France dismisses Europe, yet a map of Europe does not dismiss France. 

As well, a meta view does not have "my version of feminism" because it includes all versions of feminism. It's like saying "a library's version of a book". This doesn't make sense since a library doesn't have a version of a book - it includes many types of books. 

Moving up inclusion stages of the spiral (purple, blue, green, turquoise) involves greater inclusion. 

 

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Of everything I wrote, you simply quote the first line in which I state JP isn't Green and you don't understand SD?

@Forestluv You don't understand JP and are defensive about it. This is how the discussion goes:

First his arguments get simplified into something as: society is unfair , deal with it. Then when this doesnt work, his feelings get dismissed and he get dehumanized: it are crocodiletears. Then when there is no way around that , I didnt understand it or another user says : no problem that men drop out of school. My o my you are really trying everything to not hear him. But I see it all the time. Somehow he is very dangerous for you.

This video will be to long to watch for most. But if you watch it you'll see how nice he can fit in with a talk of a leading feminist about the sneaky ways men are not heard or underappreciated, with in the end very bad consequences. Calling him bad in green sounds dum to me. Do you know why this leading feminist started decades ago trying to free men at risk of losing his career? Because if you dont free men, you'll stay stuck in the same dynamics. This feminist started with this decades ago, he went straight against feminism which was only concerned about women. This video will be a big threat to you I think.

Also you way overestimate the value of a model of everything. It is a gross simplification of life. 

Quote

JP has stuff to offer in blue / orange to help bring up men through blue and into orange. This has value. Yet JPs poison is his intense green shadow and demonizing green as the cause of men's suffering. He characterizes men as victims. In the video you posted, he characterizes green as tyrants that are painting men as evil, misogynistic repressors.

No he is using strong words cause otherwise you wont listen at all. If you stop using the simplistic gross patriarchy frame all the time and instead use different lenses, then things will go way smoother. So your aloud to say women are victims and not men, why? Sounds like a one sided story to me then.

 

 

Edited by TheDao

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Posted (edited)

JP is one of my favorite figures (as is this platform), but I thought the critique was very precise and fair. I like how it showed what multiple states of consciousness get right, as well as what they need to integrate. 

Edited by Focus Shift

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16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv You don't understand JP and are defensive about it. This is how the discussion goes:

First his arguments get simplified into something as: society is unfair , deal with it. Then when this doesnt work, his feelings get dismissed and he get dehumanized: it are crocodiletears. Then when there is no way around that , I didnt understand it or another user says : no problem that men drop out of school. My o my you are really trying everything to not hear him. But I see it all the time. Somehow he is very dangerous for you.

Did you even read the view I wrote?

I offered a view in which we assume Jordan was 100% genuine with his tears. I even gave reasons why Jordan was 100% genuine with his tears!! As well, I said it was genuine empathy and vulnerability with aspects of Green. And, I said JP has a lot of value to offer. 

One of the traps of blue/orange is it can only see "my view" vs. "your opposite view". What I wrote includes aspects that you agree with! 

You are arguing with someone else that has a different view. If you would like to discuss what I wrote, please read what I wrote and consider it. Otherwise, you are arguing against someone else's view. 

16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

But if you watch it you'll see how nice he can fit in with a talk of a leading feminist about the sneaky ways men are not heard or underappreciated. Calling him bad in green sounds dum to me. Do you know why this leading feminist started decades ago trying to free men at risk of losing his career? Because if you dont free men, you'll stay stuck in the same dynamics. This feminist started with this decades ago. This video will be a big threat to you I think.

The point you are missing is that I see value in what you and Jordan are writing. I am a man that had struggles with gender identity and my role in society. Many of my male student's have gender issues and I try to help them. I think Jordan can make contributions in certain areas. However, he does it in a way that creates exclusion, victimization, demons and conflict toward stage green.

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@TheDao The seat of emotion is what our intellects sit down on. 

In my opinion you defending JP from a place in which forestluv isn't even poking you. He is agreeing he is valuable my friend. 

But, like anyone has good and bad elements. 

 


"Now here's the Sun and it's alright, Now here's the Moon and It's alright..But every-time you close your eyes... Lies" -Arcade Fire Rebellion

Personal Growth Vlog - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzVkdPNRrNT7SN1aoco2MdA

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

However, he does it in a way that creates exclusion, victimization, demons and conflict. 

@Forestluv Nope he doesn't . That's what feminist did from the beginning with making the patriarchy theory central. Which was acceptabel a long time ago , but now times change. And now you are so identified with it you have to fight for it as a lion. Its a very shallow view. Jordon goes further than that. That's the problem with your blue/orange way. You have to start seeing the theory is a gross simplification and a one sided view. Sometimes you need to create some disharmony to break lose of old destructive patterns. Jordan notices that he has got the straight back and speaking skills to make this change. But it will be a big challenge, there is a lot of underdeveloped green. You have a big blind spot if you think he is doing this for fun getting so much backlash. He is deeply caring.

Edited by TheDao

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Nope he doesn't . That's what feminist did from the beginning with making the patriarchy theory central. Which was acceptabel a long time ago , but now times change. And now you are so identified with it you have to fight for it as a lion. Its a very shallow view. Jordon goes further than that. That's the problem with your blue/orange way. You have to start seeing the theory is a gross simplification and a one sided view. Sometimes you need to create some disharmony to break lose of old destructive patterns. Jordan notices that he has got the straight back and speaking skills to make this change.

Stage green is a pretty deep subject my friend. What are you saying is not encompassing of stage green values, nor all of JP's values on stage green.

There is a lot more to stage green than that theory. Green isn't the same thing as ideology, but people centered around green will have their share of false beliefs and true beliefs, beliefs of high quality and lower quality. 

Edited by Thought Art

"Now here's the Sun and it's alright, Now here's the Moon and It's alright..But every-time you close your eyes... Lies" -Arcade Fire Rebellion

Personal Growth Vlog - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzVkdPNRrNT7SN1aoco2MdA

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