I resonate a lot with Jordan Petersons take on feminism - What am I missing?

[bejapuskas]

For me the best thing for becoming more feminist was to read more feminist, non-western books and travel to India.

Perhaps you are triggered by entitled privileged white women who get angry at you when you pay for their food, because they start thinking you are denying their financial independence by doing that. That can be incredibly annoying, especially if you would personally enjoy people to pay for your food, so you do it for them, but they blame you. 

By reading some non-western feminist books, fiction and non-fiction, (does not really matter, since you can deduce the global issues from the plot of the fiction as well as the non-fiction) you introduce yourself to the environment where the gender inequality is much more serious, for example the Middle East, India, Africa etc... You might realize then how serious the gender issues are, how much worse off a woman is in India, or Africa or the Middle East than the average guy, how more dangerous it is to be a woman, how you cannot even go out etc... And after that you might become more sensitive and understanding of why feminism exists. The gender issues might not be as easily visible in Europe or North America, but they are fucking real. 

The second thing was travel, which is kind of irrelevant now, but it was also a very strong stimulus. When I was travelling by a cab in Mumbai with a friend, it was nighttime and I saw this huge slum on my left and all these suspicious people walking around, like I was so fucking scared, even though I was a guy and I was inside a car. Mumbai is probably one of the most dangerous places on Earth to be a woman, New Delhi is the most dangerous one, it is called the "rape capital" by some people. That just got me to realize how lucky I am to be a guy and to not be a part of that huge rape statistic. 

But hey, guys also get raped, guys also are treated unequally, they commit suicide more often than girls do, (even though girls have more failed attempts than guys) there are so many unhealthy societal expectations imposed on guys, their self-worth is often defined by how much sex they have and nothing else etc... There are so many problems. Plus gender is a social construct and this binary division is problematic and offensive.

If you resonate with this, look at one of the definition of feminism: 

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

Equality of the sexes, you see, not supremacy of one or more. It is called feminism, because it advocates for the female perspective which guys sometimes don't understand in terms of gender equality. I assume there is something that advocates for the male perspective too that females don't get and also LGBTQI+ which advocates for the queer perspective which straight people often don't get. Feminism is not there to smash patriarchy and kill guys and cut off their penises. People who think that are not feminists, they are just committing misandry, and that is not nice. (but you must sometimes understand that that is the female version of incel and you might have been an incel yourself in the past so there is that...) 

Anybody who is a feminist is also a humanist. <3

[TheDao]

34 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Feminism is not there to smash patriarchy and kill guys and cut off their penises

@bejapuskas The problem with a part of third way feminism especially in America is the story that men are the oppressor's. It makes it impossible to have a normal discussion and to have sincere empathy for mens issues. We have an empathy gap. The story about men being oppresors(patriachy) makes men very bad people. It is a primitive notion, while reality is way more nuanced. Both sexes have issues. The film shows clearly underappreciated parts of the male perspective which feminism hasn't picked up well enough. Of course I am talking about the western society and not poor countries. Because feminism nowadays is moving to much in a bad direction, I don't identify with being a feminist. You can say as a feminist that you want equal rights but if you one sided fail to deliver you are not walking the talk.  Maybe in a future time that I will identify as a feminist , who knows. And I do want equal rights.

 

Another issue

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[Shin]

22 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@bejapuskas The problem with a part of third way feminism especially in America is the story that men are the oppressor's. It makes it impossible to have a normal discussion and to have sincere empathy for mens issues. We have an empathy gap. The story about men being oppresors(patriachy) makes men very bad people. It is a primitive notion, while reality is way more nuanced. Both sexes have issues. The film shows clearly underappreciated parts of the male perspective which feminism hasn't picked up well enough. Of course I am talking about the western society and not poor countries. Because feminism nowadays is moving to much in a bad direction, I don't identify with being a feminist. You can say as a feminist that you want equal rights but if you one sided fail to deliver you are not walking the talk.  Maybe in a future time that I will identify as a feminist , who knows. And I do want equal rights.

Don't worry about those extremists, women have no intention to take over the world, they aren't full of testosterone ready to kill half the planet just to feel like they are the king of ashes.

They just want harmony and equality (on what makes sense).

Sorry if I was a jerk, I usually am when I'm super tired :3

Edited May 8, 2021 by Shin

[TheDao]

@Shin That is not enough. You feminist dont deliver enough on the mens side. 

[Shin]

Just now, TheDao said:

@Shin That is not enough. You feminist dont deliver enough on the mens side. 

What should they deliver ?

[TheDao]

That mens are big victims of relational violence as well 

men shelters (were none at the of film, zero!)

men do way badder in education nowadays than in the past, Boys fall behind in all developed nations than girls

men are the ones dieing in war, men are the ones dying at work/as soldiers , mens commit 4 times more suicide

rights of divorced parents are not equal for men which leads to a lot of sad stories.

men are called the baddies(pathriachy) and we named good (feminism)

Men are more stuck in their role. Earn money or be a loser. 

And there is more.

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[SamC]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

@SamC  I'm not anti feminist. For the record, I support healthy feminism and denounce overcompensating behaviour portrayed by feminists.

For sure man and I get that, but that's not the point. The point is that denouncing it tells you that you're denouncing a part of yourself and reality.

Quote

You might have a point about my inward disconnection with my feminine side. I'm stoic and dissociative and I'm working on that with a therapist and on my own, but I don't think that is going to change how I view feminist extremists when I'm "healed".

Ask yourself. Why am I I triggerd by feminist extremists and not right wing incel extremists?

The reason why we get triggered is because there is a wound there. The extremist feminists represent exactly what you feel but reversed.

For you it's something like: 

" They say they are a victim, that I, as a man am the one who oppresses them but that's bullshit because I don't oppress them, I desperately want them. They are the one oppressing me, they are the one's not accepting my right to be.

In other words - for you it feels like they  A don't accept you and B gaslight that it is your fault, which comically enough is what you do to yourself all the time.

You constantly tell yourself that you're not enough - that you're a victim becuase you yourself is defective BUT you experience that they are doing the same thing that you're scared of  being... judging you as not enough. 

But guess what... they are only gaslighting themselves, just like you.  The feminists and your own gaslighting is projected outwards because you or they can't handle that you yourself feel like you're oppressed so you switch focus and say that someone else is doing it which creates this endless cycle.

What you see them doing to you, is the same thing you do to yourself. It's the same trauma meeting eachoter...

Which means that in order to heal your trauma and relationship to yourself... you have to do it to them too ( which of course is counterintuitive)

I say it again - you don't accept a part of yourself and at the same time gaslight that it is your own fault and that's the reason why you're triggered.

Quote

Even the word "feminism" is not neutral word and in practise this proves to be true. Are you not triggered by women always getting custody over children?

Of course I am triggered by it but that only tells me that I have more work to do with accepting and loving them and myself ( that I don't fully understand and accept that part of reality)

I want to punch my head against the computer everytime but that doesn't change SHIT.

The point is to learn how to integrate the things that you get triggered by, because everything you denounce - is something you don't understand and love within yourself.

I really feel you bro. We are in the same boat, but realize that them being wrong and stupied is not what triggeres you. You get triggered because there is a wound.

Investigate and heal that wound, or suffer the consequences! @StarStruck

Edited May 8, 2021 by SamC

[Shin]

1 hour ago, TheDao said:

That mens are big victims of relational violence as well 

men shelters (were none at the of film, zero!)

men do way badder in education nowadays than in the past, Boys fall behind in all developed nations than girls

men are the ones dieing in war, men are the ones dying at work/as soldiers , mens commit 4 times more suicide

rights of divorced parents are not equal for men which leads to a lot of sad stories.

men are called the baddies(pathriachy) and we named good (feminism)

Men are more stuck in their role. Earn money or be a loser. 

And there is more.

That's peanuts comparing to what women have to endure though (and not all that accurate or widespread).

I mean I understand your point, but it's like complaining that you didn't get your 5% special reduction while you already have a -50% deal, whereas your friend has to pay full price + extra.

[Carl-Richard]

@TheDao Do you read anything from scratch or do you just follow reactionary movements (red pill, MRA etc.)? I think I understand now why you couldn't elaborate on why sociology is supposedly not a science.

 

2 hours ago, TheDao said:

The problem with a part of third way feminism especially in America is the story that men are the oppressor's.

If you had actually read something about sociology, you would not give this idea of "oppressor" so much moral weight. Sociology deals with people at the group level, and you cannot generalize from the group to the individual. It's not so much that each individual male is intentionally oppressing every female in their life, but rather it's a way of describing a complex, historical, systemic, multi-layered, interactionist equation at the group level.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[TheDao]

@Shin Yeah sure boys having dad deprived lifes and doing bad in education in big numbers over all the country is like peanuts!! If this was the case with girls immediatly something would be done about it! But because we care less about boys , we give shit about it. Men getting abused in relationships but there only being help for women its peanuts! Men dying four more times because there life sucks, its nothing! Men having there children taken away because the judge is biased because of feminism, its nothing! Thanks for demonstrating your empath gap! Men are more than human doings, they have emotions too.  Ow well these are just pervasive influences over there lifes and feminism doesnt do shit in america about it. They dont walk the talk. You are very deep in your dogma of feminism.  Yes a lot of the problems are way bigger for men. Thanks for demonstrating why I am SO NOT a feminist!! Your mainstream feminism in america is so bonkers!  The film even got smeared by feminists, they are that vile, because they want to have there story about women who are victims to men. They are deep gaslighters. We need to distance ourselves for a while from these feminsts. They are not healing us.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[TheDao]

@Carl-Richard Yes I know the whole feminism dogma yes. Warren Farrell too , that why he began working on mens rights decades ago. It was very clear a one sided story. We need to advance to multiple perspectives. This unuanced picture is great for poor countries or decades ago. Now it an outdated theory , patriarchy. Its to simple. It has had its time. Now its time too advance further and to see the whole human picture. To become free of the old brute roles which were not an ideal deal for the common man at all. And to get from role mates to soul mates.

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, TheDao said:

@Carl-Richard Yes I know the whole feminism dogma yes. Warren Farrell too , that why he began working on mens rights decades ago. It was very clear a one sided story.

You keep answering "yes" without going into the details. I'm not interested in posturing. Answer my point about sociology.

[TheDao]

@Carl-Richard  Stop nagging me about the topic of another thread. Just google it, the weaknesses of not exact sciences and groupthink. Its not that difficult is it. Just understand its just an opinion of a group, who thought a bit more about groups of people. Its nowhere near the real truth. Just don't take it too seriously.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TheDao

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, TheDao said:

@Carl-Richard  Stop nagging me about that topic. Just google it, the weaknesses of not exact sciences and groupthink. Its not that difficult is it.

Sociology is literally why feminism exists. But it's ok, I won't disturb your fantasy any longer.

[TheDao]

@Carl-Richard  Fantasy . You read nothing substantive about mens issues, only mainstream feminism. So you only know one perspective  and have a big judgmental mouth.

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, TheDao said:

@Carl-Richard  Fantasy . You read nothing substantive about mens issues and have a big judgemental mouth. Stop bogging the level down of this forum please. First have knowledge then talk.

"Just google it" ?

[TheDao]

@Carl-Richard  Again you are not contrituting any quality content. You are only doing a battle. Protecting your beloved feminism. Which you got so attached too. You don't even dare to look further. Thats why you are so defensive. Provide content and arguments a grand view instead of such snarky remarks.

 

Male privilege?

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheDao

[Harlen Kelly]

@TheDao Do you agree with the statement that women have been oppressed for most of human history and are currently systematically oppressed in most countries or are you just a typical, mindless reactionary?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Forestluv]

On 5/2/2021 at 10:34 AM, Karmadhi said:

I have a question though, what right do males have in America in 2021 that females do not. All the historical examples are nice and shows that feminism was important but these days, is it really? What more can females achieve towards gender equality?

That is a distraction from looking at disparity. For example, a government may be 80% men. Technically, women are not denied the right to serve in government and men can say “they have the same rights we do”. The problem is disparity. Women are under-represented and it is much harder for women to speak up. Men will have asymmetric power and control. 

@TheDao No one is saying men have it easy and live in a nirvana. People are pointing out asymmetric power dynamics. 

[bejapuskas]

@TheDao  I wasn't talking about 3rd way of feminism, I was talking about feminism in 3rd world countries. In US and EU the gender gap is far less than in most countries (most countries are poor by the way if you did not know). If you look at how serious that is, you might actually start sympathizing.

I am not denying men's issues, they directly affect me. But like the word feminism is so broad, there will be feminists who body shame men, who belittle suicide and shit, and those are not feminists imo, they don't understand equality. But like also understand that just like so many men hate women because "they have been rejected", so many women hate men (they also generalize), because they raped them. 

And of course women rape and women rape men! The number is much less, but like sure, the statistics do not justify the individual cases, right, it is subjective trauma and damage still, even if it is less common. But like from the POV of somebody who is traumatized by men, it is very hard to open up to something like men's rights advocates. Just like it it super hard for you to understand some ways in which feminism manifests.