The Heart Centric Perspective on Veganism

[Forestluv]

14 hours ago, Myioko said:

I was trying to think of a way to even out the experience of a deer getting killed vs a human, because with a human it can be different in the sense that they can feel long lasting dread and anxiety for the future, or mourn a lost loved one. 

And with deer, it's hard to tell just how much fear they feel when they see a hunter, (do they know that the gun means death, or is it their jumpy instinct?) and there's hunting rules out there to not kill mother deers, but mistakes happen and animals can mourn the death of their family too

Yea, it’s interesting to explore the similarities and differences of perception between different animal species. I think it would make a cool college course.

[Windappreciator]

@Zeitgeist

7 minutes ago, Myioko said:

@Zeitgeist

Heh sorry I guess I was busy arguing with Aurum...(I'm sorry Aurum btw, you don't have to answer the 'would YOU kill a human' question, it's hard to compare humans with other animals and it's a very dramatic question)

I don't know much about regenerative farming too but your answer does look thought out and factual

This is a little off topic but what I've started to see as wasteful lately is large grass lawns and golfing areas in deserts. Sure, it's nice for parks for kids to play in, but grass takes up SO much water for growing in a place that doesn't naturally suit it. 

 

 

This one is just being a demon, spare yourself the trouble.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Danioover9000]

@Zeitgeist

On 5/7/2021 at 5:48 PM, Zeitgeist said:

You can disagree as much as you want without providing any rationale, but that does not change the facts.

It is estimated that only 1 gram of protein per person per day comes from grass fed animals, compared to the 27 grams of protein per person per day that comes from all terrestrial animal protein, and yet 26% of the earth’s terrestrial land surface is already taken by grazing animals (link).

This means it is simply not possible for people to consume animal products at the same rate that we are now, with the resources that are available.

On top of that, around 80% of the global agricultural land is already used for livestock, but is only supplies <20% of global calories. At the same time, the remaining 20% of land used to grow crops for human consumption already supply >80% of calories (link).

To top it all off, if the regenerative animal agriculture is about mimicking nature, wouldn’t it be the best thing to simply return the land to nature, rewild the landscapes, reintroduce natural animals back into them, and simply let nature do what we stopped it from doing by deforesting and eroding these lands for animal agriculture in the first place?

Why mimic nature if nature can simply exist there instead? - This makes absolutely no sense to me.

So, no matter how you look at it, "regenerative farming" cannot work at scale and frankly I believe it is more for people to feel better about themselves than anything else.

   That's not the only issue. Combined with increases in world population and decreases in food supply, there's a chance that as time goes on, that hypothetical some users brought up about killing and eating people is going to become more relevant.

   Not only does the USA have to reduce the farming gradually, but other countries will have to follow suit, and here's the main problem, that multiple countries have to do this gradually, instead of just one country. It's not enough that one country does this, as many other countries out there stay the same.

[Truth Seekah]

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Truth Seekah

[Scholar]

 

[impulse9]

Anyone with a hint of empathy is already vegan, or at the very least vegetarian. Anything else is honestly stupid, both from moral, spiritual and physiological perspectives.

If you want to convert a meat eater, ask them to take their daughter/son/niece/etc. (someone young they care about) to a pig farm and the slaughterhouse. 99.9% they will make some stupid ass excuse.

Advanced intelligent societies converge to veganism. It will happen whether you want it or not.

[Goldzilla]

I was a vegetarian/vegan one decade aprox., so the argument of veganism doesn't hold water. I switched to animal byproducts instead of killing animals. Yet my health improved, skyrocket in improvement. Only vegan/vegetarian is unhealthy, atleast for me. 

So, we cannot generalize what people should eat. Only a plant based diet is dangerous from my practical perspective. Killing animals is another debate in wich i won't take part because i don't eat meat, only byproducts from my own farm. 

So this being said, let's not push veganism to everyone, because this lifestyle is not for everybody, try as much as you want to bring scientific papers. There are more scientific papers against veganism than pro. 

Yeah, so i have little respect for those who push the vegan agenda, and also to those who bring suffering to humans or animals. 

Why do you think monstic hindu's who are strictly vegan also consume milk and they have high regards on their cows? Even the ancients knew that the body needs animal cholesterol, otherwise we have the hospitals full, like today. No cholesterol no tissue repair, basic science. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Goldzilla

[impulse9]

@Goldzilla A properly balanced vegan diet with the right supplements (B12 in particular) is the healthiest diet on the planet. You can disagree all day if you want. This is just objectively true, even the nutritionists are well aware of this by now. I'm willing to bet your diet wasn't properly balanced, which is why you felt the way you did. If you can listen to your body well enough, and if you're truthful with yourself, you'll know you feel like shit with an animal based diet. Of course most won't admit this because they simply refuse to listen to their bodies. They listen to their minds instead, their dogmas, their culture. The highest food vibration is that of vegetables and fruit, just do an experiment and eat a huge fruit salad one day and then meditate on how you feel. Go really deep into how you feel after an enormous, fresh fruit salad. Then some other day eat a pizza with a ton of cheese or whatever your favorite animal based food is, and try the same exercise. If you would actually do this there would be perfect clarity and zero doubts about which diet is superior and healthier.

Honestly I'm not even going to respond to this thread again because I feel because this should be obvious to any spiritually advanced individual. It's like seeing that 1+1 equals 2, you don't need any debate about it, it's just obvious. The only thing preventing you from seeing that is your own ego because it sure as fuck isn't your health. The story that you need animal products to be healthy is culturally sanctioned stupidity.

[SgtPepper]

@impulse9

I do disagree. Think about what you are saying...

The "healthiest" diet requires supplementation??? 

And a fruit salad is just a bunch of sugar, fiber, and vitamin C. So what you feel is a sugar high, not health.

3 hours ago, impulse9 said:

Anyone with a hint of empathy is already vegan, or at the very least vegetarian. Anything else is honestly stupid, both from moral, spiritual and physiological perspectives.

Plants have anti-nutrients that make it difficult to absorb nutrients properly - Plants don't contain real Vitamin A (retinol). non-heme iron is more difficult to absorb than heme iron. No B12. Very hard to get appropriate Omega 3 levels and iodine. Missing amino acids like taurine, creatine, and more. 

Fiber contributes to IBS and gut issues - not uncommon for people to complain of gas & bloating on vegan diets.

So from a physiological perspective, it makes no sense to adopt a 100% plant based diet. From a moral perspective, it makes no sense because you would be harming your own body by denying it nutrient dense foods like eggs and fish.

3 hours ago, impulse9 said:

If you want to convert a meat eater, ask them to take their daughter/son/niece/etc. (someone young they care about) to a pig farm and the slaughterhouse. 99.9% they will make some stupid ass excuse.

reading this, I can only think that you have been sheltered because that activity is actually normal to a lot of people. I went to a farm as a child with family to get fresh meat, the slaughter house was on the land, and my parents took the animals home and hung them in the garage. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by SgtPepper

[Windappreciator]

@SgtPepper You need to update that nutrition data of yours once and for all, my dude.

It's really just wrong.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Goldzilla said:

I was a vegetarian/vegan one decade aprox., so the argument of veganism doesn't hold water. I switched to animal byproducts instead of killing animals. Yet my health improved, skyrocket in improvement. Only vegan/vegetarian is unhealthy, atleast for me. 

So, we cannot generalize what people should eat. Only a plant based diet is dangerous from my practical perspective. Killing animals is another debate in wich i won't take part because i don't eat meat, only byproducts from my own farm. 

So this being said, let's not push veganism to everyone, because this lifestyle is not for everybody, try as much as you want to bring scientific papers. There are more scientific papers against veganism than pro. 

Yeah, so i have little respect for those who push the vegan agenda, and also to those who bring suffering to humans or animals. 

Why do you think monstic hindu's who are strictly vegan also consume milk and they have high regards on their cows? Even the ancients knew that the body needs animal cholesterol, otherwise we have the hospitals full, like today. No cholesterol no tissue repair, basic science. 

Animal byproducts require the killing of animals, the only difference is that the animals suffer longer before they get killed.

 

Can you provide evidence for the claim that more scientific parpers are against veganism than pro?

[impulse9]

@SgtPepper Yeah if that's normal to you then you've obviously already been socially conditioned beyond repair and nothing I could possibly say would change your mind. You're pretty much guaranteed to misunderstand what I wrote. The way we treat animals on this planet is catastrophic, if god was judging us it would be a 1/10. It is horrific and utterly disappointing.

And yes, the healthiest diet is also a technologically advanced one so supplementation is natural. B12 is produced by bacteria that we can very easily grow. It's not some kind of boogeyman you want to make of it.

[Goldzilla]

1 hour ago, impulse9 said:

@Goldzilla A properly balanced vegan diet with the right supplements (B12 in particular) is the healthiest diet on the planet. You can disagree all day if you want. This is just objectively true, even the nutritionists are well aware of this by now. I'm willing to bet your diet wasn't properly balanced, which is why you felt the way you did. If you can listen to your body well enough, and if you're truthful with yourself, you'll know you feel like shit with an animal based diet. Of course most won't admit this because they simply refuse to listen to their bodies. They listen to their minds instead, their dogmas, their culture. The highest food vibration is that of vegetables and fruit, just do an experiment and eat a huge fruit salad one day and then meditate on how you feel. Go really deep into how you feel after an enormous, fresh fruit salad. Then some other day eat a pizza with a ton of cheese or whatever your favorite animal based food is, and try the same exercise. If you would actually do this there would be perfect clarity and zero doubts about which diet is superior and healthier.

Honestly I'm not even going to respond to this thread again because I feel because this should be obvious to any spiritually advanced individual. It's like seeing that 1+1 equals 2, you don't need any debate about it, it's just obvious. The only thing preventing you from seeing that is your own ego because it sure as fuck isn't your health. The story that you need animal products to be healthy is culturally sanctioned stupidity.

Let me tell you something kid, i came from where you are going now. 

Namaste

[Goldzilla]

37 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Animal byproducts require the killing of animals, the only difference is that the animals suffer longer before they get killed.

 

Can you provide evidence for the claim that more scientific parpers are against veganism than pro?

I only milk my animals and take the eggs from the chiken and honey from my bees kid! Got my own farm. 

[Goldzilla]

There is no B12 in plants. Nor usable vitamins only traces. 

[Windappreciator]

24 minutes ago, Goldzilla said:

 Nor usable vitamins only traces. 

This is wrong.

[Danioover9000]

   No it's not that obvious, even for a highly spiritual person. It's still complex. A highly spiritual person can have high empathy for the animals, but also empathy for the plants being eaten. Every time the mawn is cut, the fresh smell of grass is actually pain signals the grass releases warning nearby plants. Every time a person purchases veggies, and the demand increases, is the need to cut down forests for crops to grow those veggies.

[Goldzilla]

9 hours ago, Windappreciator said:

This is wrong.

Is not wrong, do your research. There is more vitamin in raw egg than any fruit per example. I know it sounds out of the establishment, but is true. 

[Goldzilla]

Anyways, as humans we have to take some sort of life in order to eat. Yeah, even the plants have life, and they are not so unaware of what is happening. 

[Windappreciator]

@Goldzilla Listen, your point was that plants have unavailable vitamins, which is plainly wrong.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Windappreciator