Spiritual teachers with no psychedelic experience

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, freejoy said:

I guess a few got accidentally Enlightened because that's how he got Enlightened ...by accident. 

Maybe it was by accident in this life, but if you listen to him describing his past lives, he must have probably had around 100k hours of insanely hardcore spiritual practice. That for sure wasn't an accident, and all of that culminated in him building the Dhyanalinga and establishing Isha foundation. There are many practices he is holding back from his students saying they're too powerful. To say that he doesn't know what he is talking about just because he speaks in a peculiar type of way is a tad bit ignorant.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[freejoy]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe it was by accident in this life, but if you listen to his description of his past lives, he must probably have had around 100k hours of insanely hardcore spiritual practice. That surely wasn't an accident, and all of that culminated in him building the Dhyanalinga and establishing Isha foundation. There are many practices he is holding back from his students saying they're too powerful. To say that he doesn't know what he is talking about is a tad bit ignorant.

I don't doubt he had some good karma going for him.

I'm not putting him down, he seems to cater to the masses. They sometimes need an Enlightened One to know everything. So he has to play his part.

But he doesn't seem to be getting many people Enlightened.

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, freejoy said:

But he doesn't seem to be getting many people Enlightened.

As compared to who?

[freejoy]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

As compared to who?

Well this guy is saying he gets over 90% Enlightened without drugs:

 

But he has stopped doing one on one sessions.

[blackchair]

i have no psychadelic experience but in the future hoping to try ayahuasca

[Carl-Richard]

46 minutes ago, freejoy said:

But he has stopped doing one on one sessions.

Are you comparing satsangs with one on one sessions? 

[lmfao]

3 hours ago, freejoy said:

Most enlightenment teachers are incompetent.

Most don't know how they became Enlightened.

The ones who think they got Enlightened a certain way teach only the way they got Enlightened.

 

I think this holds for all sorts of domains, not just spirituality. Just because someone is a genuine expert doesn't mean they'll be a good teacher. 

People can only talk in the framing which worked for them personally. 

The world is a hologram, everyone "projects" and judges when they talk. Same goes for any enlightenment teacher when they talk, it's no different. 

[freejoy]

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are you comparing satsangs with one on one sessions? 

I guess I was comparing overall.

[freejoy]

12 minutes ago, lmfao said:

I think this holds for all sorts of domains, not just spirituality. Just because someone is a genuine expert doesn't mean they'll be a good teacher. 

People can only talk in the framing which worked for them personally. 

The world is a hologram, everyone "projects" and judges when they talk. Same goes for any enlightenment teacher when they talk, it's no different. 

Yes, I have found that out.

I had many beliefs about Enlightened Ones that were way off!

[Phrenic]

6 hours ago, freejoy said:

I don't doubt he had some good karma going for him.

I'm not putting him down, he seems to cater to the masses. They sometimes need an Enlightened One to know everything. So he has to play his part.

But he doesn't seem to be getting many people Enlightened.

How do you that his methods are not a reliable path to enlightenment?, where are these statistics that you are pulling out of your ass? 

This video was released on Sadhguru Exclusive, and as such it is fancified and made to look appealing for the seekers that are thirsty enough to pay and watch

What you are saying shows that you haven't bothered to try any practices yourself, or began to understand Hindu spirituality and the way in which it encompasses every area of life. Be careful with your own biases and dogma, a genuine Guru will be able to flick the switch for you in an instant, and that is the nature of Tantra and yoga. Comparing Sadhguru to non-dual teachers is a bit silly, if you experience his presence or any of the advanced programmes that Isha offers you will see that he is everything any Western or non-dual teacher can be and much, much more. Nobody you know compares or is close to being the same league with regards to their capability to enlighten other beings 

It is one thing to approach things through substances, or to transcend and reach through self-inquiry and meditation, and it is quite another thing to have the inner capability to consecrate the Dhyanalinga, which upholds every dimension of life at the highest possible peak. Give the technology a try before knocking it, or at least make an effort to understand Hindu spirituality before sharing publically gross and misrepresentative caricatures. These are not things that you talk about without experience or understanding, tens of thousands of years of spiritual culture and culmination do not exclude what you have experienced up to now. Yoga simply means conscious action, it isn't "accidental", or one method or path which excludes other methods, it is by its nature inclusive and non-discriminatory. In this context, nothing is more reliable than a Guru and the science to attain

Edited April 16, 2021 by Phrenic

[4201]

9 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

You can disagree all you want but taking 3 hours each night to fall asleep because you have anxiety speaks for itself. The only thing that really significantly helps for falling asleep with such severe illness are dangerous and addicting drugs like Xanax.

There is no such thing as sleep, only rest.  You can't take 3 hour to fall asleep unless you believe in the idea of a "me that is stressed" or a "me that can't fall asleep" and those ideas are the source of the anxiety in the first place. The mind always "wins". If you really want to believe those ideas they will become true for you. 

9 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

It is a body problem. Depression is actually very closely related to arthritis. There are 'objective' measures like significantly higher inflammation levels in the body and brain. Heightened startle response and constant anxiety that makes your cortisol higher and heart beat faster making it very hard to fall asleep.

Depression and anxiety does have physical effects but that doesn't mean it has physical causations. If you worry 24/7 about something there will be physical consequences to that but that doesn't mean the problem is physical in nature. The higher cortisol might prevent you from sleeping but the reason that cortisol is there in the first place it's because of thought. If you couldn't think you wouldn't be able to stress.

9 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

I disagree that it's all just thoughts but even if it would be, you can't control or know what your next thought is gonna be, neither live without thinking at all

No you can't control what your next thought will be but you can avoid "thinking" it or identifying with it! This is the entire point of meditation, don't take those thoughts seriously, just let them "be there". At the end of the day, as I said you can believe literally anything you want. The only way to find out if a thought is true or false is to follow feeling. We can argue all day everyday but none of this argument would be a substitute from you finding what's true by feeling.

If this way of looking at the world and depression doesn't not feel great, amazing, awesome then you are wrong about something. It doesn't mean I'm right, I could be wrong as well, some sort of master bullshitter. But when you find that truth it will feel amazing, just don't let any idea convince you that this truth doesn't exist or that it's unaccessible. This is the issue I had with Leo's comment, he's implying that "he's screwed" and that without psychedelics he can't find truth. That is false and so ironic when you think about it for a second. The reasons you have for "not being able to be at peace" are different but they do the same thing : make you unhappy.

Even if you don't want to stop believing it, I imagine one can just take psychedelics and contemplate whether psychedelics are the only way to enlightenment, on psychedelics.

Edited April 16, 2021 by 4201

[knakoo]

On 15/04/2021 at 1:54 AM, Leo Gura said:

So all donkeys got bad karma?

Notice the obvious absurdity of your position.

This is not a software problem. It is a hardware problem. Hardware matters! Imagine that! Crazy!

Maybe the donkey's soul has not evolved enough to live a human life. The reincarnation model described in this video is very interesting and talks about this. 

Considering that many enlightened masters remember past lives being monks, shaman, sages... Saying that spiritual genetics is about karma is not that far fetched. 

Do you really think that a very unconscious individual in one life, like Trump level unconscious, will just win the spiritual genetics lottery in his next life and become a new Sadhguru ? That's absurd.

[freejoy]

9 hours ago, Phrenic said:

How do you that his methods are not a reliable path to enlightenment?

I don't know if it is a reliable path or pathless path.

9 hours ago, Phrenic said:

where are these statistics that you are pulling out of your ass? 

I don't have any statistics. I haven't found any statistics at all. That's the problem.

9 hours ago, Phrenic said:

This video was released on Sadhguru Exclusive, and as such it is fancified and made to look appealing for the seekers that are thirsty enough to pay and watch

So what? I can produce videos where people pay for all kinds of ridiculous teachings. I'm just saying this does not prove anything.

9 hours ago, Phrenic said:

What you are saying shows that you haven't bothered to try any practices yourself, or began to understand Hindu spirituality and the way in which it encompasses every area of life. 

I haven't tried any of his practices. I haven't found anything where he explains his practices in detail. 

9 hours ago, Phrenic said:

Be careful with your own biases and dogma, a genuine Guru will be able to flick the switch for you in an instant, and that is the nature of Tantra and yoga. Comparing Sadhguru to non-dual teachers is a bit silly, if you experience his presence or any of the advanced programmes that Isha offers you will see that he is everything any Western or non-dual teacher can be and much, much more. Nobody you know compares or is close to being the same league with regards to their capability to enlighten other beings 

So he is the best we have currently? 

Maybe so, but haven't heard of anyone he has got Enlightened.

 

[freejoy]

@Phrenic 

Also, Sadhguru doesn't agree with using psychedelics.

[WaveInTheOcean]

I think it's too simplified to just say enlightenment boils down to genetics.

The duality: "genetics/brain <--> intention/thoughts" is ultimately one.

In other words, if you got enlightened -- either "naturally" (xD) or with psychedelics -- we can say either are true:

- you had good genetics
or
- you had the right mindset/intention/mental fortitude

I feel like enlightenment will happen to those who deep DOWN really want to get to the BOTTOM of things and are willing to suffer endlessly for it.

Those who are in for the fun of it, or want to "be saved" , or just find some of the concepts interesting (attachment hello), I don't think they will ever get it. 

This isn't about getting saved or buying into a belief system. 

This is about finding pit "what's going on" ... "how thing are as they are" ... If you aren't interested in Truth no matter the cost/gain, well, I wish you good luck.

Edited April 17, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[BlackMaze]

56 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I think it's too simplified to just say enlightenment boils down to genetics.

The duality: "genetics/brain <--> intention/thoughts" is ultimately one.

In other words, if you got enlightened -- either "naturally" (xD) or with psychedelics -- we can say either are true:

- you had good genetics
or
- you had the right mindset/intention/mental fortitude

I feel like enlightenment will happen to those who deep DOWN really want to get to the BOTTOM of things and are willing to suffer endlessly for it.

Those who are in for the fun of it, or want to "be saved" , or just find some of the concepts interesting (attachment hello), I don't think they will ever get it. 

This isn't about getting saved or buying into a belief system. 

This is about finding pit "what's going on" ... "how thing are as they are" ... If you aren't interested in Truth no matter the cost/gain, well, I wish you good luck.

I believe the same thing but Leo seems very sure that this is the case. I don't know. To be impossible to awaken without psychedelics being a normal healthy human unless very lucky sounds crazy. It could be true though and it would be something very hard to prove.