Raze

Georgetown law professor fired after Zoom conversation made public

65 posts in this topic

I want the full conversation.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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I would suggest that the professor isn't racist, she simply pointed out a feature of the data she saw in confidence with a colleague. How did they get this zoom call by the way??

This is a serious issue with the reactive social media that is popular at the moment. We're creating a culture of desperate virtue-signalling that serves as a placeholder for actually being virtuous.

For example "Oh look we fired her, we are dealing with racism" and then proceed to do nothing else because "you saw it, we've done our part". 


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@Raze The content of what she said is completely innocent imo but it's the words she used and her accent that doom her. 

She's talking about the effects of affirmative action admissions on the quality of students programs graded on a curve.

But the way she said blacks, the fact she's white etc there's no way you can bring her back to a major university in today's climate. 

She's done socially. She probably has a successful social identity as a law professor but no one will touch her with a 10 foot pole or they'll be labeled racists. No one's gonna defend her and she'll likely be shunned by lots of her former colleagues.

@Forestluv Has anything like this ever happened at a place you teach? What do you think would be the response of your peers?

Edited by Raptorsin7

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1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

I want the full conversation.

agreed, hard to make my mind up fully on this. she sounds like a racist boomer with her choice of nomenclature, "the blacks." I think the full conversation would give a better idea of what went down.  

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So she speaks the truth but the words she uses are not PC enough?. Did I get it right?

Did anybody challenge substance of what she said?

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@Epikur I think there are elements of her tone and word choice that indicate some underlying racism. Calling black people the blacks is an outdated phrasing and there undertones that don't sit well with people of color

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2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Calling black people the blacks is an outdated phrasing

Not if you're a Boomer ;)

Remember to give Boomers some leeway with their outdated Boomer ways. You'll be glad you did once you turn into a Boomer yourself.


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3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not if you're a Boomer ;)

Remember to give Boomers some leeway with their outdated Boomer ways. You'll be glad you did once you turn into a Boomer yourself.

I will never become a boomer. >:(

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Said every young boomer ever.;)


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@Leo Gura Yeah I agree, there's an element of devils advocate in my post.

I didn't sense any hatred or anything in her tone, I'm just saying given the optics shes gonna get hit hard.

I think the bar for being a racist to be vilified is being set too low by lefties, her comments were mild and based on a very real phenomenon in law schools.

 

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4 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Leo Gura Yeah I agree, there's an element of devils advocate in my post.

I didn't sense any hatred or anything in her tone, I'm just saying given the optics shes gonna get hit hard.

I think the bar for being a racist to be vilified is being set too low by lefties, her comments were mild and based on a very real phenomenon in law schools.

 

That is why I guess some act more aggressively anti racist so to be not next in the line french revolution style.

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26 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I'm just saying given the optics shes gonna get hit hard.

Oh, of course. And perhaps she should. I don't know. Hard to judge these things. Not enough context.


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6 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

 

@Forestluv Has anything like this ever happened at a place you teach? What do you think would be the response of your peers?

Nothing like this has happened since I've been at my college (13 years). However, there are some more subtle racist overtones by older faculty, yet nothing this overt. 

If this happened at my institution, there would be a very strong counter respond. She clearly undermines the direction of our college. There are a lot of faculty members that are putting in a lot of effort to remove barriers for all disadvantaged students (including various socio-economic, racial, gender etc. barriers). She undercuts those efforts and other faculty will not like that. The white boomers might give her a pass, yet minority and young progressive white faculty will not. We do not want to work at an institution with people that have that mindset. 

My reaction is to first put this in context. In particular, what is her underlying mindset and was this simply an awkward way to phrase things. I've been in a couple situations in which I inadvertently misused a term like "intersectionality", however my underling mindset was not racist. 

For those in the thread saying "She said what was true", you are missing an important distinction and why here attitude is harmful to the mission of educating students. It may very well be true that black students are performing poorly in her courses, yet that is a separate issue from her attitude about it. For example, in our biology department the data indicate that students of color disproportionalty do poorly in our bio courses and drop out of being a science major. Yet our department has a completely different attitude. We are now asking "Why is this so? And how can we address this issue to better educate all of our students?". For example, we are looking into student preparation. Are these students adequately prepared from high school? Should we offer college prep courses to underprepared students? Are there enough tutors? Are we advertising and encouraging students to access tutors? Are we showing diverse examples in the sciences or are all the examples we show of successful scientists old white guys?. .  . This is a very different mindset than the woman in the video that sees her black students as inferior, a hindrance and annoying. 

As well, the way she perceives her black students has an impact on her relationship and biases with students. I guarantee that black students have picked up on her vibe and they were not shocked by this video. Students know when they are being looked down upon and even if it is subconscious, it has an impact. For example, she does not offer equal access of her time to all students. She has clearly stated that her black students are a hindrance and annoyance to her teaching and research. Black students will not feel comfortable going to her office hours with questions. And even if they do come to office hours, the profs attitude is that they are a hindrance and annoyance. As well, the professor's mindset will be a bias toward grading. Even if it's unconscious. Don't think that grading is 100% objective. There are a lot of short answer and essays. A professor with an attitude that black students are inherently inferior will bias their lens when they are reading and grading papers. 

If she is tenure-track, she should be toast. She lacks skills necessary in the ethos of education. There is no reason to invest in such a professor when there are hundreds of qualified applicants. If she is tenured, it would get trickier. The spirit of tenure is to protect a teacher in their academic exploration, teaching and research. For example, I started teaching about potential value of psychedelics in neuroscience and therapy years ago when it was much more controversial today. Tenure protects me in doing that. Yet I don't think tenure should protect professors from behavior that harms students and hinders an institutions ability to educate. For example, if a professor sleeps with a student. Technically, it's not illegal - yet it is highly disruptive to student-teacher relations and an educative environment. 

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1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

 

I think the bar for being a racist to be vilified is being set too low by lefties, her comments were mild and based on a very real phenomenon in law schools.

The phenomena is not the problem. It is her mindset about the phenomena. 

At my institution, we have data that students of color are underperforming and dropping out of our science majors. The person who brought forth this data has not been villified as a racist - they have been supported because of their attitude. There attitude is that we have a problem that we need to address and are trying to create solutions. For example, do we provide enough assistance to underprepared students? Are we presenting material that will connect with students from a diverse backgrounds? Do we only show old white guys as examples of intelligent, successful scientists and poc as examples of crime, poverty and disease? . . . However, this professor in the OP has a very different attitude about the phenomena. Her attitude is that students of color are a inferior, a hindrance and an annoyance to her teaching and research. Personally, I would not want to have a colleague with that mindset - it is against the ethos of pedagogy and education. 

Imagine a doctor notice that a community had a higher frequency of high blood pressure. The phenomena is not the issue, it's the attitude toward the phenomena at issue. A good attitude is "We have an issue in this community with high blood pressure, how can we address this issue to better help our patients". A toxic attitude toward the phenomena is "These people with high blood pressure are so annoying and I wish I didn't have to care for them".

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20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't understand the issue to be honest. Is it that she used the term "blacks" instead of "black people"?

I'm a professor in academia and describe the issue above. It is not just due to her usage of the term "blacks". It is her mindset regarding her black students. Her mindset is counter to the ethos of academia and the ability to educate. 

Some people in this thread are seeing this in the context of behavior on forum communities. A classroom in academia is a very different environment and professors should be held to high standards (myself included). 

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@Forestluv It seems to me that there are two ways a professor can conceive of course design (especially when it comes to the development of assessments like quizzes/exams and the assignment of grades):

(A) the course exists to provide an arena of competition for students to demonstrate academic excellence, in which case exams should be "rigorous" and an A should signify that the student has out-competed their peers

(B) the course exists to get students to meet a certain set of pre-specified learning objectives, in which case exams should be closely tied to those learning objectives and it would be "ideal" for all students to get A's

I've come to believe that (B) is a more appropriate vision for college courses (and certainly for first year courses), not least of all because it makes it easier to implement the anti-racist institutional values with regards to curricular choices, classroom policies, the construction of assessments, and the assignment of grades. Presumably the vision of (A) still has a place, perhaps with higher level courses, but it seems like implementing the anti-racist values in a course that takes (A) as its vision would be much harder.

Does what I'm saying here sound like it's in alignment with the sort of conversations your university has been having on these issues? I ask because I suspect a lot of older professors would chafe at (B) versus (A). It seems to me a lot of older professors have as part of their own personal identity the fact that they were the ones who excelled at school back in the day (so much so that they became professors!) And I would hesitate to share with them that my goal is to help as many students as possible get A's, lest they accuse me of simply "lowering standards".

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Why is the usage of the term blacks instead of black people such a big deal? 

Don't we say whites, Chinese, Hispanics, Indians etc? 

Then what's the problem in saying Blacks? 

Its a reference right? 

I usually never say Blacks. But I'm not American either. Could get very confusing to people from other cultures who don't know much about black history. 

 


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@Boethius I agree with a lot of what you write. Yet I see it as a combination. Competition can be a motivating force for a lot of students. It can increase chances of reaching potential. I think a good analogy is with a sports team. In some contexts, competition can be fun - yet context is important. As well, I would make a distinction between intra-group competition and inter-group competition. Here, the focus is for one team to compete against an opposing team. Coaches know the importance of teamwork and have mantras like "There is no 'I" in team", "Always Us" etc. I would say a small amount of intra-team competition can be good, yet the majority of energy should be encouraging, supporting each other within the team - and have the competition directed against the other team. Competition against the other team can be healthy, yet can also be toxic. A team might be so over-competitive that they intentionally injure the other team.

How might this apply in the classroom? The "intra-team" would be the students in the class. We could have some fun classroom competition, yet in a way that still focuses on the "team". Who may be the "other team" we compete against? The other team could be students from other schools. For example, we could introduce the idea that the pre-health students in our course is a team competing against other students in other schools to get into med school. 

There is also the idea of competing against oneself. For example, a runner could compete against their race time from last year. They could compete for a personal best. 

I would say competition can be potent and should be used strategically and sparingly. As well, most competition is oriented toward extrinsic rewards. Intrinsic rewards are really important for deeper learning, satisfaction and fulfillment. 

I also think "model B" is becoming more popular, especially younger faculty. That is, setting specific standards and students get the grade representing the standard they meet. I.e. "Learning Objectives". A pure "model A" competitive curve can actually be an anti-curve. Imagine the average grade meets 85% according to standards, yet the professor deducts a 10%, to force the average to be 75%. 

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58 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Why is the usage of the term blacks instead of black people such a big deal? 

Don't we say whites, Chinese, Hispanics, Indians etc? 

Then what's the problem in saying Blacks? 

Saying "Black people", "White people", "Hispanic people" etc. adds a human component. 

A more de-humanizing term would be "The Blacks". This often has a derogatory tone. 

Saying "The Black students in my courses are performing poorly" has a different connotation than "The Blacks in my courses perform poorly".

In the context of the OP video, her usage of "The Blacks" was in a derogatory tone and mindset. It's not like people are splitting hairs because she didn't say "Black people". 

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