Bogdan

Carnivore cannot heal the gut, Leo

170 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't buy this logic.

I don't think there is any protein intake limits for the body, within reason.

Simply eat until you are full.

I don't "buy" it either, hence "theoretical." Though in my research, I have found some convincing evidence over the years that protein may only be assimilated at a rate of about 10g per hour, throughout all hours, without the inclusion of exogenous insulin (and potentially some other PEDs). As in, even if you ate 240g of protein all at once, once a day, you'd still assimilate all of it -- it would just take a full 24 hours, theoretically. A very similar phenomenon is actually proven to occur with fats, btw -- it would not be unreasonable to assume something similar may be true for protein, as protein is generally even more difficult for the body to fully assimilate. It occurs with both fat and carb when daily caloric intake exceeds ~10kcal, but even in those cases, daily protein intake did not exceed 240g by much, if at all.

Just a suggestion for future troubleshooting. If it's too much trouble to try it, absolutely don't bother. If it's no problem, perhaps consider it. That's all I'm saying.

The downstream glucose conversion from 240g protein is way more than enough to keep from going keto, if that's perhaps what you're worried about by increasing fats significantly to make up for the calories.

Edited by The0Self

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11 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I can't imagine anyone in the modern world who would go hunting just for food.

Really? Well, considering the aforementioned deer/elk jerky was from my friend's freezer who hunts for food all the time and it's extremely economical and probably humane... And he isn't the only person I know who does that... It definitely seems to be a fairly common thing, at least in the southern USA, but I'm pretty sure it's more or less ubiquitous.

3 hours ago, Yog said:

Its might be worth it even just for food. I remember Joe Rogan saying, that from 1 hunted elk, he stocked up a full freezer of meat that will last him for 6 months. And he is a big guy. Anyway that is whole another skill-set that has to be learned, few will go for it.

^^

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If there are so many good results on carnivore could it be that humans should simply eat meat all the times ? Maybe all that Ayurveda and Buddhism don't hurt animals stuff isn't true after all. I guess humans are just supposed to kill and eat meat only.

After all our bodies are still hunter-gatherers, maybe the whole confusion started once people started farming their food 10.000 years ago, maybe that was the wrong move.

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1 minute ago, Phyllis Wagner said:

If there are so many good results on carnivore could it be that humans should simply eat meat all the times ? Maybe all that Ayurveda and Buddhism don't hurt animals stuff isn't true after all. I guess humans are just supposed to kill and eat meat only.

After all our bodies are still hunter-gatherers, maybe the whole confusion started once people started farming their food 10.000 years ago, maybe that was the wrong move.

For people who don't get a bad reaction to starch and plants, it is best to include those in the diet -- to counteract the carnivore diet's effect on cholesterol and the cardiovascular system. You only need carnivore if you need it, and hopefully not forever but if that's all they can do, it probably beats a diet of processed foods by a long shot. Doesn't mean it's the optimal diet by any means.

It does not seem to be the case that humans should eat meat only, but it also seems to be the case that eliminating meat entirely (and especially eliminating animal products entirely) makes optimal health a bit more complicated, not that it can't still be pursued.

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@Phyllis Wagner  I think that a lot of it has to do with our diminished gut microbiome due to fast food, antibiotics, pesticides, toxins etc. Impaired microbiome cannot help us properly metabolize food and that can in time cause immune problems as majority of our immune system resides in the gut. So humans not only have polluted and ruined their environment and surrounding ecosystems but also ecosystems within their guts. I remember watching a documentary years ago in which it was claimed that people in the first world countries have a lot less bacterial species in their colons compared to native tribes in Africa that eat huge amounts of fiber from various plant sources. Also genetics and what part of the world your ancestors came from have an effect on your ability tolerate foods.

Edited by Delis

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Leo is looking very thin in the latest blog video :o:o
It’s concerning... these extreme fasts and diets are bordering on anorexia :| Leo even reported in the video that he couldn’t manage to work and could barely stand up, and that he was so hungry the entire time. 

Please people be careful when following these extreme diets and starving yourself!!
becoming so obsessive and having it consume your life is not good. 
 

Edited by Tangerinedream

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Leo, on the video you say carnivore is not for the long term but on the other hand the inuit and every hunter-gatherer tribe from the beginning of time ate mostly meat, for their entire life. Meat has been always the main food of humans. How can that be bad now when it wasn't bad our entire existence? I mean those tribes didn't have modern illnessess like we do now.

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2 hours ago, The0Self said:

Really? Well, considering the aforementioned deer/elk jerky was from my friend's freezer who hunts for food all the time and it's extremely economical and probably humane... And he isn't the only person I know who does that... It definitely seems to be a fairly common thing, at least in the southern USA, but I'm pretty sure it's more or less ubiquitous.

My point is that these people probably grew up hunting or grew to like it somehow.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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1 hour ago, Guido said:

Leo, on the video you say carnivore is not for the long term but on the other hand the inuit and every hunter-gatherer tribe from the beginning of time ate mostly meat, for their entire life. Meat has been always the main food of humans. How can that be bad now when it wasn't bad our entire existence? I mean those tribes didn't have modern illnessess like we do now.

Dude... the inuit have horrible health, and a very low life expectancy. Even their mummies had atherosclerosis. The more meat free a civilization is, the longer they live and the healthier they are. This is an undeniable fact.

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2 hours ago, Guido said:

Leo, on the video you say carnivore is not for the long term but on the other hand the inuit and every hunter-gatherer tribe from the beginning of time ate mostly meat, for their entire life. Meat has been always the main food of humans. How can that be bad now when it wasn't bad our entire existence? I mean those tribes didn't have modern illnessess like we do now.

Longevity in meateating tribes is not good. They get clogged arteries. Most of them simply don't live long enough to get a stroke or heart attack because tribal folk tend to die young of natural causes.

High meat diet will definitely skyrocket your cholestorol, the bad kind.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Longevity in meateating tribes is not good.

Yep. There is an important distinction between longevity and biological fitness. Just because x diet is observed in nature (the selection criteria being biological fitness) does not mean it promotes longevity. You could argue that longevity isn't a natural phenomena in the first place (it arose "artificially" through human culture).

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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But if I had to choose between living 65 years on carnivore vs 80 years on vegan, with how much better I feel on carnivore factored in, I would rather live 65. No doubts about it.

Longevity is meaningless without energy and quality of life. I can accomplish more work in 65 of carnivore than 80 years of vegan. At least given my current health condition. Hopefully I can change that.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But if I had to choose between living 65 years on carnivore vs 80 years on vegan, with how much better I feel on carnivore factored in, I would rather live 65. No doubts about it.

Quality of life trumps longevity.

There is a trade-off for everything. Even within a purely biological framework with healthy individuals, you would actually expect the diet that maximizes fitness to minimize longevity and vice versa.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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@Leo Gura There is a chance a lot of us would have to live without pizza, ice cream, sandwiches, pastry, chocolate and coffee. I would say NO to that lifestyle. Truth is, pleasure of food counts for a huge chunk of pleasure in this world. I'm not sure that life is worth living. You can make millions of dollars and have a gratifying career and all that but if you cannot so much as enjoy a cup of cappuccino and a dark chocolate bar after a long workday?? ! No thank you!!!! I can only hope either fecal transplants or Stem Cell therapy does the trick and spare people the immense suffering..................

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53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Longevity in meateating tribes is not good. They get clogged arteries. Most of them simply don't live long enough to get a stroke or heart attack because tribal folk tend to die young of natural causes.

High meat diet will definitely skyrocket your cholestorol, the bad kind.

Not trying to argue and of course you've done your research Leo but I don't think that any of that is true. Cholesterol is a natural response of the body to fix inflamation, we know what causes inflamation, of course not meat. So clogged arteries is just the cholesterol trying to fix the inflammation caused by grains, processed foods and (in some bodies more than others) some fruits and veggies.

Veggies have some good nutrients but many antinutrients, fruits are just empty carbs (sugar and fiber). Meat have all you need to survive and thrive (you are proving it yourself right now).

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I know this plot, it ends by Leo realizing that the carnivore diet made everything worse and that he reacts to vegetables even more severely than before, possibly permanently locking him into having to avoid plants for the rest of his life.

 

Good case study on what desperation does to a mind.

 


Glory to Israel

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33 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

Where do you bs/science people crawl out of, i wonder?

From here:

Dietary Intake of Saturated Fat Is Not Associated with Risk of Coronary Events or Mortality in Patients with Established Coronary Artery Disease: https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/2/299/4616071 "... there were no significant associations between saturated fats intake and risk of coronary events"

and here: Lack of Association Between Cholesterol and Coronary Heart Disease Mortality and Morbidity and All-Cause Mortality in Persons Older Than 70 Years: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/381733 "Elevated total serum cholesterol level, low HDL-C, and high total serum cholesterol to HDL-C ratio were not associated with a significantly higher rate of all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease mortality..."

also: Cholesterol and all-cause mortality in elderly people from the Honolulu Heart Program: a cohort study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)05553-2/fulltext "...Only the group with low cholesterol concentration at both examinations had a significant association with mortality"

and more.

I'm just saying don't stay stuck with the idea that cholesterol and meat is bad and that meat consumption is related with high cholesterol

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@Bogdan

15 hours ago, Bogdan said:

If you are sick every time you eat vegetables you should consider that there might be an underlying issue that is giving you those symptoms. It's not the plants, and your body being incompatible with them. It's the gut problem! 

I would suggest that you are looking in the wrong direction. I mean, sure, try an elimination diet, but don't try to make it work long term. You clearly have something in you that is reacting to what you put in the body and also on the body, so consider taking some gut tests and working with a professional (never on your own) on solving them.

Elimination diets do not solve the problem. The problem is so complex that in my opinion you absolutely need to work with a specialist, such as Gojiman, who clearly produces undeniable 100% results. Not some half-assed "i went on carnivore and now i just have to keep my intake of beans and potatoes low and i'm fine" type of stuff. Which is still great, better than before, but the problem is not fixed!

There are literally thousands of different iterations of the same gut problem, and there are thousands of gut problems, and any combination of them on top of that. It's so freakin complex! And this is the first time in history when we actually are beginning to fully heal our gut issues and "heal our lower chakras". That's why everyone is showing so much resistance to it.

No, but i use ze magnificent internet in general. I did talk to a lot of doctors, though. I have many in my family and many of our peers are doctors since my eldest uncle was the headmaster of the University of Medicine here in my hometown. So i've had quite a few people to bounce my ideas off of. But Leo is right, these doctors don't really know much about gut health and nutrition and the interconectedness of stuff, so...

I find that the 80/20 or even 90/10 rule applies really well here. There are those weird rare exceptions and they become exponentially more rare the more we approach that 1%. But let's ignore those exceptions for now.

Also, i think this dog training analogy works well here: Not all dog's problems are the same, but all dogs are the same - meaning that they all have different traumas and psychological and behavioral issues (content), but the training principles, are the same (structure). 

Not all gut problems are the same, but all guts are the same (again, let's ignore the weird rare exceptions).

What ya'll seem to be missing is this distinction between the content of moving from one diet to another, and the structure, which is gut health.

 Of course, @Leo Gura i'm not suggesting that you should go off carnivore now, especially to a vegan diet lol. But i don't think that you're actually approaching the problem at it's root, which is your gut issues. And i'm sorry, but taking antibiotics on your own as you described doesn't seem a very wise or responsible way of approaching the problem. And it's possible that if you were to work with Gojiman some antibiotics will be involved at some point, and in your mind maybe "you already have tried that". But you didn't REALLY try it in the right context.

Ya know why i bring Gojiman up so much, Leo? Because i've watched all of his videos and all of your blog videos and what you have tried in the past is exactly what Gojiman suggests that you shouldn't do. Including the taking of antibiotics and fasting. And he is the one that actually solved his debilitating gut issues, and is reliably and consistently solving other's gut issues also. But i feel that i've made my point. I will try to stop now xD 

 

Again... what people don't seem to understand is that it's not the plants that are causing the gut problem. You're (probably) not one of those exceptions. The gut problem is what's reacting to the plants!

   My main point is that an elimination diet solves the problem temporarily. Temporarily. It provides some relief. That is much better than being in agonizing pain. This does not mean being in carnivore diet for your whole life. Leo is doing this temporarily.

   Dog analogy is bullshit, sorry. Humans have selectively bred wolves with traits desirable for humans to utilize, hence we have dogs. I get your point, that if you had your way, humanity would be so much simpler to understand. That is not the case. Humans are complex bull shitting animals.

   Have you considered that Leo has tried Gojiman's approach, and the treatment didn't work, and out of not causing you stress and depression, that he decided to not explicitly say otherwise, to not hurt your ego?

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3 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

aaah my friend. the first one's title- Dietary Intake of Saturated Fat Is Not Associated with Risk of Coronary Events or Mortality in Patients with Established Coronary Artery Disease.

Do i need to say more or can this be conclusive enough?

Oh! so you clearly showed that the first one is false by reading the title and you dismissed the actual study and the other studies, you win. You show amazing openmindedness and no dogmatic thinking at all.

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