modmyth

ARS AMORATA: Cultivating Self Love + Positive Self Image (2)

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Posted (edited)

Love the attitude! That's healing. 

Tearout. If you don't respect yourself noone else will. 

Edited by Zeroguy

I am a God. I am Infinite Love. 

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Posted (edited)

Speaking of outlandish stuff: a skill I picked up in Mirror Space two summers ago is the ability to hear multiple messages running simultaneously (and by picked up, I mean the element of conscious choice was removed entirely), which I might have written down at some point or another here in the past. So that happened tonight, it happens once in a while, usually when I lie down to meditate and I would be quite open and focused (as in, and not much while doing something else like I most often am, like painting and listening to audio or something). I can do both though and sometimes there is stuff running simultaneously but I will miss a lot of subtext if I'm multitasking or if I just don't care that much at that moment...

So sometimes I will pick up messages later, sometimes not.

Sometimes messages are like in a sort of "compressed format" (so I feel the spirit of it and I understand it), sometimes it's decompressed and I hear it as words/ dialogue running simultaneously; it's a bit like watching 2-3 channels at once. So in mirror space, I was under the impression that the human brain can handle about 6-7 channels as this is what I experienced (which corresponds to how many pieces of information can be held in active memory, does it not?). I experienced this in the way of having the experience of hearing that many people talk to me at once and I was like STOP PLEASE. STOP PLEASE. STOP TALKING TO ME I DONT WANT TO BE TALKED TO (though I arrested my response, as described above). I did not enjoy it, though that time period was like... so beyond the normal frame of enjoying something or not. Anyway, for some reason my intuition is telling me that actually more is possible. Like 20. But I honestly... I don't know other than this.

Anyway, today, this stuff is really kicking my brain. It's more whatever usually. This type of processing can be exceptionally hard on the human body at times depending on a number of factors; right now, it feels a bit like going from sitting in your chair to sprinting in about 2 seconds, and then getting aggressively nauseous and out of breath. This is what I tend to concern myself about the most, and a bit less about how it makes me feel; usually I can adapt.

For years, I have been used to getting messages from the collective consciousness (this is the sort of empaths/ psychics jurisdiction anyways), but sometimes I get messages directed to no one in particular (more like a general wish, from there, you might be able to find out if it was or wasn't consciously expressed), sometimes to me in particular (in this case, you have to know something about "who I really am"), sometimes to "God" or some higher power, etc. It is basically by a similar means of intuition that I can tell if a song is addressed to me, and with a little bit more intuitive digging: I can also tell things like how you feel about me just generally, in what ways you are generally affected by me, and which past self/ era of myself that you are most influenced by (and this has actually been hugely important in my own understanding), as people's experiences of me effect memory (subconscious or not) and this in turn shapes both what they look for, what they expect or anticipate from me, etc.

I spent a handful of years watching, waiting, and making sense of signs. I wanted to see who understood what about me and why (and if there was nothing, then there was nothing.) Anyway...

Not to get fucking weird (as if this wasn't already), but I pick up things by proximity, so just being aware of you and focusing on you passively is enough to make me aware of a great deal about you. This is generally the kind of thing that you just don't tell people. But, it is...

I have mentioned about something like, in psychic/ collective space, there are no secrets (if you know how to look). We are all connected. I don't even have to look most of the time. I tend to absorb a lot of information by osmosis.

Edited by modmyth
There is a great deal I can do, but not like.. everything.

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Posted (edited)

Oh, so it seems like I already named myself back here. Well, this was a rather disorganized way of expressing myself. I was pretty fucking zonked in some ways, but also totally functional in other ways, because I can do that apparently. It's been a survival skill in this lifetime.

Weird. It feels like I haven't said anything at all, but I have some sense of functioning normal consciousness now; I didn't back then. But I have permanently changed and kept some aspects of my psyche then, and erased and cleaned up a bunch of others. A huge amount of time and energy has been put into that almost every day.

Nope. No desire to back through everything I wrote there for fun.

Anyway, here is an example of what sort of checks and balances I tended to go through. There often tends to be certain reoccurring signs, for example. Between these two lives, there are these factors in common, despite the superficial differences of roles:

1) early childhood prodigiousness (often in multiple fields) and the tendency for my mind to spread itself outwards in multiple directions simultaneously and naturally. Like, in this life, I've been told to rein it in constantly. What I end up doing is stilting my natural energy and curiosity then doing the 1-2 things I'm supposed to be focusing on not as well. So much for that.

1a) A certain kind of affinity for music in particular, including writing it (if I have the time).

1b) The tendency to either to do patronage and social support/ scout/ nurture talent in the arts/ sciences/ philosophy and/or to participate in these fields directly (if I have the time and the leaning)

1c) A preoccupation with getting involved and changing the dominant social narrative of the time in one form or another.

2) A certain kind of sexual attitude that being put in or growing up in a nunnery cannot fix. Look up some of the comments Hildegarde made about sex. Where does that come from, do you think, if one's whole life had been spent since early childhood in nunnery? In a Catholic nunnery. And even now, with my own life, my own sexual self-restraint both by force of circumstances ("trauma") and choice? It doesn't do much to change me at my core. I just focus on other stuff most of the time.

3) the ability to deal with quite a few types of people including political heads of power, artists/musicians/ thinkers and to reconcile people that is not dependent on one's upbringing or station in life; both lives had disadvantages, and having a natural boldness here. Being a woman was hardly an inherent advantage. (You really wouldn't know this from the way that I've lived this life though, but life has not asked this of me earlier anyway. And frankly, I have alluded to this: this sort of social role is not well suited to someone under 30 particularly, even someone who has relatively good judgment and clarity. In both of the above cases; I didn't actually do that much until I was over 30 for a reason.) The ability to negotiate and change people's minds, sometimes more or less forcefully (the above two cases, mostly the latter).

3a) Not being afraid to walk over dudes or stand up to them (including dudes with worldly power), or somehow managing to do this by default just for existing (if given even a little leeway to do so ......) It's an aspect of my personality, I guess. I can be a warm person and still this tends to happen.

4) Related to the point above: the ability to make quite a bit from relatively little, as in, to bend social norms perhaps more than commonly would be thought to be possible, and to still be praised for it in the long run (both lives above are examples of playing the long game). Both are good examples of what I am able to do with relatively limited access to "special powers" or anything (and what good would special powers be in those kinds of milieus anyways? For every purpose, the appropriate manifestation.)

5) That I will lie (and perhaps believe in my lies to one degree or another) to entrain myself into orthodox society in order to influence it, even if this comes at a great price to me emotionally, physically, etc. Like for example: with Hildegarde's visions and debilitating sicknesses (I both remember and understand just generally how this works. I can probably induce this sort of splitting consciously if I want to. I.... don't want. I already have residual splitting anyway, as mentioned above), this was advantageous to the time period as a "woman of God", it created legitimacy. Also giving legitimacy: talking crap about myself as a woman and my capacities, and then leveraging that lately. Do you think it feels good to do that? But anyway, I always generally have worked with what I have been conditioned into to the best of my ability.

I think I mentioned near the beginning of Confessionals that I am a liar, as in, I will lie to get things done, mostly preferably by omission if possible. But possibly actively as well. I believe that all lies, conscious or not, always come at a price. I do not like them. I consider them to be a necessary sacrifice sometimes in society, even under the best possible circumstances, because of people, society, politics, etc.

6) Direct memory, of course. Memory of how I felt at the time, the general spirit of the times, and knowing the difference between the public image I presented and inhabited and how I actually felt across the board. Without direct memory: being able to look at records of what I've done and to know exactly why I did it right away (no ambiguity), in a way that I would not be able to know if it was 'not me' in the sense that I also know myself. I have also had quite a few memories and since childhood, an intuitive knowing about historical figures (which in retrospect, I realized that I have known at least some of them directly); the response is completely different even if I have been close to the heart of their experience in the way. There is no mistaking it; it is not the same.

7) The tendency to express myself in similar ways that I would express myself now, and almost like... a very expansive, circular way of expressing myself (if in an intellectual role, if not, then more directly) with a strong voice (I know my own damn voice). If you read Ninon's biography (there still might be an English one floating around somewhere), there are sentiments which I had expressed in the same spirit and in almost the exactly the same language, and at the time I first read it, it was both fascinating and frankly, sort of creepy and uncomfortable in a deja vu kind of way. The sense of irony/ humour is pretty much almost identical (expressed in a different time period). Like... so do I want to read the rest of this book and to make sense of it, or do I want to throw it out the window? Stuff like that.

 

Edited by modmyth
The checking is because I care about procedure and things that can stand up to cross examination more than anything else, not because I learn much new about myself generally.

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Posted (edited)

IMAGINATION (/what is real):

Just generally, if something does not correspond to the junction between collective and personal reality, I have no interest in it. I am very very cautious (maybe cautious is not the right word as it implies fear: more like attentive and mindful, at least, that is the aim rather than retentive and frozen. Things that trigger the latter? Unless there is a specific purpose to make of it, then no. Not good). I was careful about what I fed in belief and attention a couple years ago, and I am even more exponentially so now. And things drag on for a while anyway. I am just cautious of (personal, relatively disconnected) imagination itself especially, yea. There is a lot you can't really get done if you go get holed up in there, but it too has its purpose and... obviously, it can be a beautiful place to be, at times. It has a way of encouraging you to bury your misery and unresolved issues though, and that always has consequences. But it helps you survive, and times, you seem to almost be thriving, even when reality is not beautiful.

Despite my precautions, I still fell off in my ability to cope with "mundane reality". Unsurprisingly, my ability to deal with it completely tanked, especially in the emotional sense.

Desire is a powerful force, perhaps the most powerful one.

But to cut off imagination? I suppose it is a lot like not even being alive at all, why bother?

What I aim for is integrated imagination, which involves dealing with "reality", collective imagination and reality, personal imagination (as in, what you can visualize yourself as your own free agent, and also what comes to you forcefully and spontaneously in inspiration or as if it is channeled), etc. All these things are sort of reality/ imagination together, most often unreconciled. And they must be. And they will.
 

Edited by modmyth
Can't afford to anyways, things get all messed up. Even more so than they would be otherwise.// What does truth mean relative to imagination anyway?

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Posted (edited)

I take what most often ends up being knocks at myself in order to attempt to resolve this or that, or to put things into right relationship. Lately, I especially find myself looking at the analogue version (the massive underside) of what these experience spaces look like, cleaved and dissected and magnified grandiosely to infinity. How deep does associating personal love with the desire to be awake, feeling, and conscious as well as to do work in this life, how deep does this go? What else does it take?

Sometimes I have nothing to offer but by sincerity ultimately: no attitude, no strategy, no diversions, ulterior motives, and things in residual motives. At the end of it all, none of this works and there's no new news. Please. I cannot quite function properly like this (as in, do what I came here to do). Everything must be in its right place. This is twisted up still and not quite right. And I am not like him in this way; perhaps I could not have done what he did and survived. It is not my nature.

I want to go home. (Even if home is no place in particular. And I'm completely empty-handed. And I'm alone. It was more than enough before.)

 

Edited by modmyth
For what did not work in the heart of two summers ago (but I was told that would): I think I've seen everything that there is to see here.

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Posted (edited)

SOCIAL WEAPONIZING/ MENTAL HEALTH:

It's been immensely educational watching people argue around here; normally I feel like it's a waste of time both to partake in and to watch in the greater scheme of things, but normally I notice that there is only the flimsiest pretense of having a discussion or debate in good spirit where issues are being worked out. Or alternatively, people get derailed pretty easily in the emotional sense, which is understandable. Working things out through direct conflict is another game.

Also: I'm really, REALLY tired of this notion of the personality disorder being weaponized, just universally, both on the small scale and the larger scale; and this does have a tendency to happen whether people intend to be doing it or not. You can defend yourself and be weaponizing it directly against other people. That's how it usually goes. Sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is to lash out and protect yourself from where you are standing, but then this is not good rhetoric and social policy, is it? What goes one way against other people tends to inevitably go against yourself in the way that you measure yourself universally across the board, including in unconsciousness.

Here is an area where reading about the history of psychiatry might change your perspective a bit. At least, I REALLY hope it would. The farther you go back in time since the creation of this Victorian institution, the less those in the position of authority (as a whole, not every caregiver ever) would even have the pretense of being on your side emotionally (as in, siding both with your perspective and emotional wellbeing). It's basically: you are gonna get fixed whether you want to or not if people think something is wrong with you; it's not an institution known for respecting human autonomy, liberty, the judgment of oneself, self-determination, or cultivating a trusting relationship with oneself. This is like the understatement of the century.

In the early 2010s, the social justice movement (which is tied to academic leftism) earned itself a very bad reputation on the internet for this reason. And while I participated in academic leftism because I was always heart-deep in the notion of resolving/ addressing various issues, so we shared the same concerns, our core tactics and ethics were never compatible. (Another thing worth noting: when we oppose someone in conflict, we tend to be mirroring the exact opposite side of the same coin, or else direct conflict tends not to exist. Observe the arguments of New Atheists vs. religious people that they pick a fight with. They have far more in common than they do not.)

Who is this person who is both "normal" and perfect enough, and where are they, why do they exist? And why are they so perfect? What is their base personality like? What struggles are they on course to deal with and resolve within their lifetime? How do you reconcile this legibly with the fix-it mentality on mental health rhetoric, which is essentially based on the notion of intrinsic brokenness? You will NEVER get out. That is pretty much the point. Conditions can't be healed truly, they can be managed well at best and then maybe you can live a functional lifestyle for the rest of your life. But you'll always have to watch your back with yourself; you'll never been able to trust yourself. You will require a light step and system of surveillance and being measured both internally and externally ("the system") for the rest of your life. This is precisely the point made by Foucault; and you don't have to be exemplary by this standard or other standards in order to make a point that stands irrespective of your own state (or the most "perfect" normal person; if you read his life, he wasn't).

If you find benefit from this kind of framing because it helps you make sense of yourself and this world and the patterns in it, that's fine. You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. But why accept the most negative aspect (IMO) of it wholesale? I can guarantee you're turning it against yourself in some way.

It's dehumanizing rhetoric (and so, you use it to dehumanize yourself); I don't get the commitment to it.

 

This whole issue is why far-leftist movements like Mind Freedom exist (TLDR; it's a psychiatric survivor movement), because to reject this paradigm entirely is considered radical (especially if you are considered within the bounds of diagnosis): https://mindfreedom.org/

Edited by modmyth

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@modmyth yes the conflict ended up looking like that. 

Me being dehumanized as someone with a personality disorder, meanwhile it was me simply reacting to aggression thrown at me, but it's basically weaponizing as you put it, using it to demoralize and discourage me from having conversations, hard to make an argument  against, because personality disorder immediately puts people on high alert, and the best way to target someone's emotions in a dehumanizing manner, easier to get a reaction out of. 

Although I stood my ground, albeit in a socially awkward way. 

 


INTP loner..... Live a Roman.  Die a Roman...... Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream. Love it. (I'm more Roman than you'll ever be ) only guys with zero ego and zero passive aggressive can talk to me, rest need not bother 

Preety preety

 

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@modmyth yes. I try to look at it with humor now (although not so much ) but it did give me some fright short of a heart attack. 

 


INTP loner..... Live a Roman.  Die a Roman...... Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream. Love it. (I'm more Roman than you'll ever be ) only guys with zero ego and zero passive aggressive can talk to me, rest need not bother 

Preety preety

 

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@Preety_India Glad you feel better now. I think at this point I'm learning to take it all way less personally. Like it is personal and it isn't in a way. It has as much to do with people's relationships with themselves and what they value (and also, self-protection) as it might have to do with anything that's being said about you, so it's up to you to figure out what's what.

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@modmyth spot on. I've felt the same. 

 


INTP loner..... Live a Roman.  Die a Roman...... Nothing else but to enjoy  the rest of my dream. Love it. (I'm more Roman than you'll ever be ) only guys with zero ego and zero passive aggressive can talk to me, rest need not bother 

Preety preety

 

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Posted (edited)

CHILDISHNESS, CRYING: I've seen it duly noted that children don't feel self-conscious about crying or expressing emotions until someone or some situation makes them feel self-conscious, and then this alerts them to the fact that it's not ok. So they adapt, that's what all people do, especially children.

I don't remember a time that I didn't feel self-conscious about crying, especially around my parents. I can't even trace it back to a specific experience as a definitive source and say: yes, that was definitely the root cause of it all. It has always been a stifling, enclosing, suffocating backdrop. A dis ease. The aura of stagnation. A feeling of being watched almost omniscient (like, I couldn't always say it was my parents exactly, but crying in front of them was WAY worse, for sure). This particular feeling of being watched in a stifling, negative sense has been there for a great deal of my life.

And like a child, I cried naturally and now I feel completely fine; in fact, I feel much better than before. Isn't this now doing what it's supposed to be doing? You cry and you feel it fully and wholly in that moment, and if there is any degree of emotional repression, pretty much by definition it's all overly dramatic and a bit much, is it not?

I didn't have any thoughts or feelings about how this wasn't what I should have been doing and that this isn't the person I should be (not perfect/ good enough).

There is the possibility that someone might not respect you, sure (particularly if you are a man and you cry in public or something). I'll probably never particularly prefer to cry in front of other people; but say I get to the point where it just doesn't matter completely either way. That's something for your own internal state. That's something like being free of inner tyranny and inner segregation.

And curiously, when you are free; I mean the more deeply and truly you feel it, then you really are naturally good enough, aren't you? I mean you fall into that naturally.

There is no more trying and no more of that feeling of being fake (as if wearing an overlay).

 

Edited by modmyth
This is actually a pretty good thing to add to my list of achievements in this life.

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I cry a lot and it hurts ... I just want a sincere guy to have sex with me.

I know what amourousness is

I'm in love with the Sun

Sargatanas helped me find a guy to sexchat with in hard covid times

have empathy. thanks modmyth i didnt have time to read through. the first few words really touched me. hugs if u need it // platonic love here

 

sargatanas thamk you.png

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59 minutes ago, modmyth said:

CHILDISHNESS, CRYING: I've seen it duly noted that children don't feel self-conscious about crying or expressing emotions until someone or some situation makes them feel self-conscious, and then this alerts them to the fact that it's not ok. So they adapt, that's what all people do, especially children.

I don't remember a time that I didn't feel self-conscious about crying, especially around my parents. I can't even trace it back to a specific experience as a definitive source and say: yes, that was definitely the root cause of it all. It has always been a stifling, enclosing, suffocating backdrop. A dis ease. The aura of stagnation. A feeling of being watched almost omniscient (like, I couldn't always say it was my parents exactly, but crying in front of them was WAY worse, for sure). This particular feeling of being watched in a stifling, negative sense has been there for a great deal of my life.

And like a child, I cried naturally and now I feel completely fine; in fact, I feel much better than before. Isn't this now doing what it's supposed to be doing? You cry and you feel it fully and wholly in that moment, and if there is any degree of emotional repression, pretty much by definition it's all overly dramatic and a bit much, is it not?

I didn't have any thoughts or feelings about how this wasn't what I should have been doing and that this isn't the person I should be (not perfect/ good enough).

There is the possibility that someone might not respect you, sure (particularly if you are a man and you cry in public or something). I'll probably never particularly prefer to cry in front of other people; but say I get to the point where it just doesn't matter completely either way. That's something for your own internal state. That's something like being free of inner tyranny and inner segregation.

And curiously, when you are free; I mean the more deeply and truly you feel it, then you really are naturally good enough, aren't you? I mean you fall into that naturally.

There is no more trying and no more of that feeling of being fake (as if wearing an overlay).

 

message before was a response to this, im kinda messy, excuse my artstyle, just wanted to give some love back to someone whose words help me // platonic

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Posted (edited)

"GIFTEDNESS"/ INTELLECTUAL PRECOCITY:

It's really not the easiest thing to reclaim your whole childhood, is it? Particularly when there's a lot that you'd rather not remember based on the way it made you feel, or your first impulse is to recoil or disconnect from it on some level even because your immediate feeling is that you have no idea what to do with it. Nope, not going to talk or think about that one.

I touched on it again here in more relative depth when talking about my childhood history with music exploration and creation.

One of the things I started to talk about in my first journal here (Confessionals)  was what it was like growing up "gifted" and all the baggage that it came with my specific lifetime. Or at least, I was trying to get it out and I was feeling and fumbling my way through expressing myself with words. One of my first posts about the topic was me making a self-deprecating joke and titling my post "I am very smart" because no one likes someone who talks about their experience and perception of intelligence too directly, do they? Isn't it a bit like talking about how rich you are except in North American culture, manifestations of intelligence aren't as widely appreciated? It's more of a niche thing; and it certainly won't make you popular with your peers. At best, it's more of a neutral thing, or is perhaps positive in combination with a bunch of other positive traits (e.g. it's fine to have "good grades" as long as you are also social, "popular", athletic, etc. (note: classical giftedness doesn't necessarily correlate with good grades, haha.) But too much of it, too enthusiastically, and not offset by other traits? You fucking nerd. Haha. I very much got the sense of having to watch myself and what I said constantly. I was very preoccupied with not seeming too weird since about the age of 7.

I got much more on the side of existential crises, anxiety, self-suppression and self-censorship than I ever got praised for my talents and aptitudes. I can think of examples where I felt like I really truly and openly showed what I was capable of, as in, I didn't hold back to show the "right" amount of smarts (not too little and not too much) with certain things on ONE HAND at most for my whole life growing up, and felt like I was praised for it. I was very, very careful about what I showed. And my parents encouraged me to hide it. It was one of the number of ways that I felt like an inconvenience simply for existing. No, I do not chronically blame them for this issue. Actually, I almost never have. In some past post, I mentioned that my abilities caused fear for them and also neither showed or shared much of everything.

And... to be honest? Sometimes I wonder if it was for the best. I never got addicted to praise and self-affirmation in this area because it JUST. DIDN'T. EXIST. But reclaiming what I have dissociated from hasn't been that easy. It's been another thing that literally I have fought a decade for this. So damned if anyone's opinion on this is going to get in the way. (Ok, that confrontational energy is out again, haha.)

As a child or teenager you're not likely to be respected exactly,  (ok, seriously, how many people truly respect children especially in practice? This is a completely different thing than letting them have their way), you're likely to be looked at with some sort of awe or maybe even disdain; it's a bit like looking at a freakshow. You're valued if you can go on some talent show or win some competition and impress all the adults, and perhaps you can essentially kickstart your lifelong career trajectory at very young age. In other words, you're valued not for your intrinsic traits exactly (wow, look at this amazingly curious and inquisitive human being; that is a very positive trait!), but compared to other kids, you're a very effective workhorse. You're a sort of trophy to show off to the other parents (Essentially amounting to: "I made this!") Think of those child actors and actresses, or like anyone who was put into child pageants, or perhaps the Mickey Mouse Club (Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, etc.) There is sometimes a similar dynamic going on here between parents and their gifted children who are having their talents harnessed.

I think East Asian cultures are a bit better with simply respecting intelligence as its own value. (But how well this manifests, that is a separate issue.)

Anyway, it has been duly noted the negative effects of treating kids this way at a young age, they tend to burn out young and dramatically, or else they figure out how to transition into adulthood either because they get the emotional infrastructure from someone (say they had an extraordinarily good mentor in an emotional sense, rather just intellectually or at the level of tangible "skills"), or maybe they figure it out the hard way, through this school of hard knocks. Kids get messed up regardless. It's pretty much a trope. (Please... don't romanticize this.)

Also, I believe I had pointed this about before, but in no way is being called or referring to yourself as a former prodigy flattering if you don't have achievements or skills now that match your personal aptitude, which is relative to the amount of time that has passed. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way; it's probably much more common than it is not, and I've heard about this happening with every skill or talent. It's a hard emotional burden to bear if you value yourself in that way and if you'd like to create more and do more with what you've got, that's terrible. You have the advantage perhaps in terms of skill and aptitude, but emotionally this can be a crippling roadblock that is never overcome. That's like peaking in your physical appearance in childhood or as a teenager and then everything going sharply downhill from there. You got the rest of your life to live. Also, you remember what it was like to have your "glory days" happen when you were too young to appreciate it or do much with it consciously. That's.... kind of sad, isn't it?

There is the fun business of trying to figure out what "enough" is as well relative to your own self, with your own self-image and feelings relative to other people's expectations and your own history. Who can you trust here if you can't trust yourself? And as a fun addition, the classically gifted tend to be very perfectionistic, sensitive and high strung, and that ties directly into what intrinsic personality traits contributed to them being "gifted" in the first place; it's just that now you're turning it against yourself in the most unproductive way. If you don't have good emotional resolution skills and a reasonable positive self-image, you screwed. You are an outsider by default in this particular way. Pretty much everyone knows that just because your mind works fast (in one or multiple domains) it doesn't somehow magically make it easier to deal with yourself on an emotional level, right?

Of course, if you were "formerly gifted" and you just don't care because you don't want to do anything with that skill and also maybe you don't care what people think, then there's no issue.

And still, I tend to get this feeling that people are preoccupied with policing your self-image particularly if you talk about this issue in the wrong way. You don't want to seem arrogant. IDK, part of me has been like, I might as well get the anxiety and fear about being too abrasive and too arrogant and too this and that out in the open (while simultaneously being self-deprecating, apparently), and just get that over with it. I'm not keeping that burden inside of me. Well, ultimately the preoccupation with people being preoccupied in anticipation to some event that hasn't actually happened yet is on me, so again, might as well toss it out of there.

I learned how to praise myself overtly in public and I overcame my shame and resistance in this way. That was important for me. For someone with a different background, it might be something else. To each individual person, their individual, specific remedy, right?

It really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, does it?

Edited by modmyth
To be honest, I think being hyper selfconscious is universally similar across the board, regardless of the cause and subject. So if you think about it that way, think of something you were painfully, horribly self conscious about? You get it enough then.

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5 hours ago, modmyth said:

As a child or teenager you're not likely to be respected exactly,  (ok, seriously, how many people truly respect children especially in practice? This is a completely different thing than letting them have their way), you're likely to be looked at with some sort of awe or maybe even disdain; it's a bit like looking at a freakshow. You're valued if you can go on some talent show or win some competition and impress all the adults, and perhaps you can essentially kickstart your lifelong career trajectory at very young age. In other words, you're valued not for your intrinsic traits exactly (wow, look at this amazingly curious and inquisitive human being; that is a very positive trait!), but compared to other kids, you're a very effective workhorse. You're a sort of trophy to show off to the other parents (Essentially amounting to: "I made this!") Think of those child actors and actresses, or like anyone who was put into child pageants, or perhaps the Mickey Mouse Club (Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, etc.) There is sometimes a similar dynamic going on here between parents and their gifted children who are having their talents harnessed.

Oh god this resonates with me. I was thinking about something similar recently. But I was thinking along the lines how a lot of adults dismiss the experiences and emotions of children and teenagers down to "oh, they're being a brat" or "oh they are being emotional because of hormones." Especially when it comes to biological arguments such as hormones and the development of the prefrontal cortex (for decision making and thinking things through), to me it's not so much the validity of the arguments rather it's about how it's used. Often times the way some adults bring this up is a way to ignore the social issues that children and teenagers rather than to understand and empathize with the issue at hand. 

I feel that something that a lot of adults gloss over when they use excuses like hormones is that children and teenagers act this way not because of some type of inherent wiring rather its because of limited life experience. Take a toddler crying at the supermarket because his mom won't let him get candy. The toddler isn't some little shit for acting that way, he is crying because this is something that is distressing relative to the fact that he is like 2 years old and this is probably the worst thing they have encountered so far and they are still learning to navigating emotions.  Another example is a 14 year old going through a break up for the first time after being in a relationship for like 3 months because they got cheated on. As an adult you can grasp that 14 means you have plenty of time left and that this is not going to matter in a few years because you probably had somethings go wrong at that age and then you witnessed it become irrelevant as time went on. But for the 14 year old, they don't have the amount of life experiences to have that perspective because they are amidst this moment. Also say this was your first relationship at that age and it's like the only experience you had with dating. That's going to sting a lot more. For an adult, first of all 3 months is nothing, but for a child, 3 months can be a long time because your perception of time is different as you age. Also if you're an adult who got cheated on, lets say in your 5th relationship, you still have the other relationship experiences to tell you that it's not the end all be all. That incident accounts for a smaller percentage of your experiences (say like 20%) while for the 14 year old it counts for 100% of their experience thus far if that makes sense. 

And then this dismissal causes needs to go unmet along with the kids and teenagers not learning how to properly cope with the situation which then leads to things like self sabotage and trauma later on. A lot of adults are so quick to dismiss the issues of kids and teenagers because it doesn't seem like a big deal to them relative to them. And then they're sitting there like the surprised pikachu meme wondering why the kids are acting up.  Kids still have to deal with things like racism, sexism, homophobia and other social issues even if they are at a smaller scale because youth and childhood doesn't exist in some type of vacuum outside of the real world and its issues and it's the job of the adult to understand those issues and guide kids accordingly. But some adults don't even see the point of guiding and going out of their way to explain things in an age appropriate way because they assume that kids and teenagers are dumb, not capable of thinking critically, or simply won't get it because they aren't old enough yet. 

 

Also with the whole participation trophy thing that a lot of boomers complain about and how they think that ruined the younger generations by making them entitled, I think the participation trophy was more for the parents/ boomers to feel good and special about themselves and like their kid did something rather than for the kid because lets be real, these kids know that the participation trophy doesn't mean shit. If anything, I remember as a kid that participation trophies felt like a condescending way of sugar coating loss in a way because there was this assumption of we need to make the kid feel special because they aren't capable enough to know that they aren't the best and process their feelings in a way that won't result in a tantrum. 


The heat that you curse in the summer is the same one you yearn for in the winter. 

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Posted (edited)

@soos_mite_ah  What you wrote brings up a number of thoughts; they may be a bit scattered and out of order.

One thing I have gotten a strong impression of as a teenager was that most adults didn't have good memory of what it was like to be a child or even a teenager. Specifically, they ceased being able to relate to themselves empathetically in that way, as if they had dissociated from it almost entirely. I remember growing up, my dad said more than once that he felt like he was a completely different person before he went to university. For context, my father was actually going to become a Catholic priest because he decided one day around 9 or 10 that this was his dream of what he should do for the rest of his life, so he spent the cusp of puberty and up to his mid-adolescence in the seminary (which is basically Catholic priest boarding school), and then he dropped out at some point because he became completely disillusioned with both the theology and the reality of how Catholic priests were, I guess both intellectually and morally. Understandably, his Catholic parents were brutally disappointed. And then on top of that, he went to university and underwent a sort of personal, atheist revolution which went over about how you would expect it with his parents.

Anyway, that always struck me as alien and somehow sad at the time, although I didn't really understand exactly what it meant to be an adult and to have burdens on a personal level, obviously. But then, as a young adult after I graduated university, I looked back at my own former self and I realized that I could relate to my teenage self (specifically my anger), but my childhood self before and during the cusp of puberty, not so much so. His comments here reminded of having that impression, and then I thought about what it meant. And I was like, oh shit, I dissociated. I dissociated during this early transition period, but I also dissociated again before I entered university. In retrospect, it makes me wonder how common dissociating and unrelating from yourself is extremely common to the point of being the absolute rule rather than the exception. Like maybe it's a matter of degree of rather than if it happens or not.

And in this way, because we don't remember what it's like to be kids/ children, that's why we generally can't help but bother them so much. Even when so many parents and educators who take their careers seriously, they want to do right but they just can't from where they are.

I tend to think of the dismissiveness as a spectrum, there is a more extreme dismissive, like a constant version of what you described all of the time. And then there is the kind of dismissiveness that comes from not being on all the time, being tired, etc., which tends to just be associated with being human, which I assume is not what we're talking about. :P

I know parenting can be extremely difficult because I used to teach kids and I was immensely appreciative of the time I WASN'T with them, as in, they were not my responsibility. They can be exhausting if you put even a bit more than the bare minimum in.

My parents used to tell my brother and me something like this: we are flawed humans and we're going to mess up parenting in some way or another, and you're probably going to hate or blame us later (because that's often how it works). And also, we're probably not going to realize that we've messed something up in retrospect. Almost all parental idealism falls flat in the face of reality. And while my parents weren't honest about a number of things from my perspective, like they could not really handle emotionally and mentally open dialogue AT ALL and it was very one-sided with them telling us what was true in a one-sided sort of way, but they were definitely right here.

I definitely get what you're saying about the childhood "tantrums" or teenage breakups, though I myself never really got the chance to express my emotions in that way growing up as there just wasn't the space of it. It's the deathly heavy price of having to be very responsible and mature from a young age since your emotional (and sometimes physical survival) depends entirely on it. It's a huge burden to bear emotionally when you feel like you have zero support in this way and that you are basically on your own; it's like you are raising yourself emotionally (and sometimes, like you are mentoring your own parents which is just... not good. Like with my mother, she would flip out and get angry really easily.... but anger was not acceptable from us kids. My brother fought a lot with her; oddly enough, I felt like I had to treat her with "kid gloves" (heh) emotionally because I was capable of handling myself at a young age in that way and apparently she wasn't? I think this is actually a fairly common dynamic.

I wrote a little bit in this recent post about learning to cry naturally as an adult was actually a huge sort of achievement for me on a personal level. And it's like... well.... most people got this out of their systems when they were very young whether they had supportive parents or not. I did not. And with all due respect to myself since it was definitely not my fault, I do kind of feel like it made me emotionally immature (or disconnected/ stunted) as a result in some ways. Like I couldn't connect to and feel all my emotions fully, and in a way that made me feel... what's the right term? Fake, I guess? Or split? Or like I'm watching my own life being lived but I'm not really embodying it meaningfully because I can't?

In practicality, I think that dismissiveness tends to be a spectrum. But I've never forgotten what it was like to be a teenager (and as I've gotten older, a child, more and more), and this greatly factored into my teaching style and attitude and to feel like adults JUST DON'T GET YOU. Even when they are actually trying pretty hard.

The ability to feel something fully at the moment, and to feel it deeply, that's actually a gift. Even if it's inconvenient for the people around you, and probably for yourself as well. And even if they're not always happy.

Despite whatever personal issues I had at the time and whatever I was working through on my off time, I was really careful about what kind of attitude I brought into the classroom because it's really the most important thing. Most adults I have talked to remember this one (or maybe multiple) asshole teacher they had when they think of school, likewise, if they had a really good teacher. That stuff sticks with you. I have always felt like even somehow I couldn't be a good teacher, I had a moral obligation to at least not be that asshole teacher that carelessly ruined some child or teenager's self-image, self-esteem, attitude related to learning, etc.; it's better to be forgettable.

I learned a great deal from my students, actually; I had a very close relationship with many of them because kids would go out of their way to talk to me off my off time and just generally, I talked a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if I actually knew a lot more about what was going on in my students actual lives than any of their parents, relatives, teachers, or other adults, because I got told a ton of different things that I knew they absolutely would not want to ask their parents about. It was all sorts of things, including questions that might not be life-altering exactly (e.g. getting bullied or their first breakup), but just questions about the world and what it means to be an adult or just a human in general. They would ask me these questions very directly once they realized that they could pretty much ask me anything and I would answer it without making them feel like it was stupid or unwanted, as long as it wasn't unprofessional or something. But extremely personal, sure. You can pretty much ask anything. And I told them (if they were very young and their questions were actually verging on inappropriate), be careful with what you ask adults. You'll get a very negative reaction from almost all of them by asking about certain things directly because >insert reason<.

It's like my own honour/ ethical code; I didn't want to give them false ideas of being an adult; but it's really important not to have a terrible cynical attitude as well. Like from my perspective, emotional attitude precedes even what you say in truth otherwise especially the younger the person, if that makes sense. But for pretty much all of us, we are emotional beings first and then logical ones second.

And without having read anything about youth/ child psychology, I felt like I got the most hands-on education you could possibly get without having kids myself (and if you do, you see a different side of it because generally there are things that the vast majority of kids/ youth I've talked to just don't want to tell their parents anyways, even when there was a relatively good relationship). It's like the adult peer relationship which is vastly underrated in a culture that tends to be quite segmented and encourages social isolation compared to past cultures and time periods, IMO.

I kind of rambled a lot here but there is SO much I could say about this topic; really it could just go on and on. Basically, I took a meticulous and very long list of everything that I saw go wrong in my own, friends, and peers lives growing up, and then really I just DIDN'T do that.

 

Also: about the participation trophy thing, oh. I've totally forgotten about all of those participation awards. I definitely remember people getting those and that they didn't feel like "real" achievements or awards; it definitely felt like we were being pandered to. There was definitely something awkward created there by adults in the whole atmosphere. Like a Canadian sorry (where we say we're sorry but we don't actually mean it, we're just being polite most of the time, haha).

It really starting peaking aggressively in the 90s and 00s, didn't it? I can't imagine it was a thing in the 80s where teachers and parents had a rather direct and sometimes extremely unkind approach towards youth. Like there was smart and there was stupid; it wasn't considered so complicated. The idea of neurodiversity and conditions such as ADHD (or high functioning autism, dyslexia, etc.) was not yet a part of the collective dialogue.

Like, this was the 70s/ 80s:

Another topic I could just go on about for a really long time.

Edited by modmyth

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12 minutes ago, modmyth said:

One thing I have gotten a strong impression of as a teenager was that most adults didn't have good memory of what it was like to be a child or even a teenager. Specifically, they ceased being able to relate to themselves empathetically in that way, as if they had dissociated from it almost entirely.

Yeah I got that impression as a teenager as well, especially when comparing my dad to how my friends' parents related to them. My dad had me when he was in his 40s and I remember from the ages of like 10-14 or so I would sometimes ask how he handled certain things at his age and how to navigate situations and he would just tell me how he doesn't remember or even if he remembered big events, the details and the feelings were kinda lost. I don't think it was a dissociation thing rather it was just life experiences piled on and those memories aren't as clear and fresh anymore (like a lot of my early childhood experiences aren't as relevant now so I don't go back and visit them and I have had other experiences in the last few years that are more relevant now). In contrast to that, I had friends who had parents who had them in their teenage years so basically their parents are only like 14-18 years older than them. Because of that, it was easier for them to open up to their parents and share what was going on because their parents had to deal with situations similar to that not too long ago or at the very least somewhat connected to that part of themselves still. My dad has told me that he does regret not having kids sooner (not like soon SOON but more like in his late 20s early 30s like most of his peers) because of the gap in empathy that sometimes gets presented. 

This is also one of the reasons why I decided to start journaling at 16 or so because I wanted to have some type of record of my experiences and thought processes at the time in order to be able to empathize with my younger self. I think that is incredibly important when it comes to forgiving past mistakes, understand how your thinking process evolved etc. And down the line it can help understanding people who are much younger than you as well.  It's also the reason why I wanted to get into self improvement and therapy while I was young enough to remember my childhood because then it will be easier to unpack and heal from so that I won't wake up one day at 47 and wonder where the hell I picked up all of these limiting beliefs and unhealthy ways of coping. At like 21, there is much less emotional archaeology you have to do on yourself to heal from your issues and that will pay dividends in correcting any future mistakes that can come from having those issues persist. 

29 minutes ago, modmyth said:

I tend to think of the dismissiveness as a spectrum, there is a more extreme dismissive, like a constant version of what you described all of the time. And then there is the kind of dismissiveness that comes from not being on all the time, being tired, etc., which tends to just be associated with being human, which I assume is not what we're talking about. :P

I know parenting can be extremely difficult because I used to teach kids and I was immensely appreciative of the time I WASN'T with them, as in, they were not my responsibility. They can be exhausting if you put even a bit more than the bare minimum in.

That's one of the many thing that I'm worried about when it comes to the topic of having kids. It seems so exhausting and it's something that you can easily mess up if you didn't work on yourself before hand to where healthy habits are your default. I like kids but I feel like I can get drained really quickly with them. Maybe this sense of exhaustion comes from me being hyper aware of what I'm doing and saying idk. But I think being more tired  than usual a few days here and there and slacking off on meeting the emotional needs of children isn't a problem but it's more of patterns that recur over and over again which are often due to things like trauma, ways you genuinely think it's the best to approach situations, and generational cycles repeating. Then again, I have very limited experiences with children so there is only so much that I can say on this topic. 

38 minutes ago, modmyth said:

I definitely get what you're saying about the childhood "tantrums" or teenage breakups, though I myself never really got the chance to express my emotions in that way growing up as there just wasn't the space of it. It's the deathly heavy price of having to be very responsible and mature from a young age since your emotional (and sometimes physical survival) depends entirely on it. It's a huge burden to bear emotionally when you feel like you have zero support in this way and that you are basically on your own; it's like you are raising yourself emotionally (and sometimes, like you are mentoring your own parents which is just... not good. Like with my mother, she would flip out and get angry really easily.... but anger was not acceptable from us kids. My brother fought a lot with her; oddly enough, I felt like I had to treat her with "kid gloves" (heh) emotionally because I was capable of handling myself at a young age in that way and apparently she wasn't? I think this is actually a fairly common dynamic.

I had a very similar experience, especially when it comes to figuring out things yourself and mentoring your parents. I see this being more in common with a lot of parents who are immigrants since the kids are navigating through a lot of cultural things on their own because their parents don't have the same perspective. I also think this is much more exacerbated because of the internet because the younger generation has more opportunities to educate themselves on a variety of things ranging from how to love yourself and have boundaries to understanding issues regarding society and politics. So as far as consciousness goes, there is a wider gap and while that can mean progress down the line, it can also translate into younger people having to guide older people when they themselves haven't figured out who they are yet. I remember one time I was talking to a friend about this and we were talking about how we had to explain to our parents at some point something as basic as you can't trust everything on the internet and that you have to fact check sources instead of just going off of the first thing your friend sends you over Whatsapp. 

I know that I talked about this in a more zoomed out way but yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to deal with having to be very responsible and mature at a young age. I feel like with kids who are really mature and responsible for their age, it could manifest from a really healthy circumstance like their parent raising them right and teaching them about how to manage feelings and situations constructively or it could manifest from a really unhealthy circumstance like what you described. 

50 minutes ago, modmyth said:

I wrote a little bit in this recent post about learning to cry naturally as an adult was actually a huge sort of achievement for me on a personal level. And it's like... well.... most people got this out of their systems when they were very young whether they had supportive parents or not. I did not. And with all due respect to myself since it was definitely not my fault, I do kind of feel like it made me emotionally immature (or disconnected/ stunted) as a result in some ways. Like I couldn't connect to and feel all my emotions fully, and in a way that made me feel... what's the right term? Fake, I guess? Or split? Or like I'm watching my own life being lived but I'm not really embodying it meaningfully because I can't?

Yeah I'm working through something similar. I have gotten to the point where I can cry without much shame naturally a couple years back but it was difficult to get to that point. Took a lot of therapy, reflection, and journaling. I still have to deal with the disconnection from my emotions but I'm getting better at it. I find myself that through doing all this work, I have gotten much more sensitive and open to feeling my pain. That's not to say that I can't handle little things or that I'm reactive, but it's more about being more in tuned with what's going on and being self aware of all the ways something is affecting you rather than being numb.

55 minutes ago, modmyth said:

In practicality, I think that dismissiveness tends to be a spectrum. But I've never forgotten what it was like to be a teenager (and as I've gotten older, a child, more and more), and this greatly factored into my teaching style and attitude and to feel like adults JUST DON'T GET YOU. Even when they are actually trying pretty hard.

The ability to feel something fully at the moment, and to feel it deeply, that's actually a gift. Even if it's inconvenient for the people around you, and probably for yourself as well. And even if they're not always happy.

Despite whatever personal issues I had at the time and whatever I was working through on my off time, I was really careful about what kind of attitude I brought into the classroom because it's really the most important thing. Most adults I have talked to remember this one (or maybe multiple) asshole teacher they had when they think of school, likewise, if they had a really good teacher. That stuff sticks with you. I have always felt like even somehow I couldn't be a good teacher, I had a moral obligation to at least not be that asshole teacher that carelessly ruined some child or teenager's self-image, self-esteem, attitude related to learning, etc.; it's better to be forgettable.

The teachers and professors I had who connected with students much better were the ones who treated students like they were capable of thinking critically and understanding their feelings and emotions rather than brushing them off as being young and stupid. 

57 minutes ago, modmyth said:

It was all sorts of things, including questions that might not be life-altering exactly (e.g. getting bullied or their first breakup), but just questions about the world and what it means to be an adult or just a human in general. They would ask me these questions very directly once they realized that they could pretty much ask me anything and I would answer it without making them feel like it was stupid or unwanted, as long as it wasn't unprofessional or something. But extremely personal, sure. You can pretty much ask anything. And I told them (if they were very young and their questions were actually verging on inappropriate), be careful with what you ask adults. You'll get a very negative reaction from almost all of them by asking about certain things directly because >insert reason<.

It's like my own honour/ ethical code; I didn't want to give them false ideas of being an adult; but it's really important not to have a terrible cynical attitude as well. Like from my perspective, emotional attitude precedes even what you say in truth otherwise especially the younger the person, if that makes sense. But for pretty much all of us, we are emotional beings first and then logical ones second.

 And all of that is so important in helping kids have an accurate perception of reality and make informed and conscious decisions accordingly. I just remembered this one post that I saw on Tumblr years ago on how to talk about sex with children in a way that is accurate and age appropriate and some of the things that I remember were "don't tell kids that sex happens when two people love each other a lot because that can create an unhealthy relationship to sex because sex and love aren't always correlated." And definitely don't sugar coat language around sex when it comes to different body parts by using euphemisms or any other cringy metaphors because that will just confuse the kid and make the topic taboo because you're uncomfortable around it. But yeah I think that whole post made me think about how to deal with questions about more adult topics with kids and not give them some false sense of reality. And on the other spectrum of sugar coating things, being overly cynical also doesn't help and creates a false sense of reality except in this case, the kids are going to be scared shitless, create limiting beliefs, or not be able to process what's going on in a healthy and objective way. 

1 hour ago, modmyth said:

Basically, I took a meticulous and very long list of everything that I saw go wrong in my own, friends, and peers lives growing up, and then really I just DIDN'T do that.

I feel that. I find myself mentally or sometimes even physically taking notes of what I shouldn't do if I'm dealing with kids. For me, sometimes I take my observations and how it shapes my views with a grain of salt because even though I know what's wrong and what should be avoided, that doesn't mean that I know what's right. Knowing what's wrong can help you critically think and do a little process of elimination when it comes to how to react to a situation but it isn't the same or as efficient as knowing what is the right thing to do. That's what I noticed with myself anyway and how I deal with situations. 


The heat that you curse in the summer is the same one you yearn for in the winter. 

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