Free will

[At awe]

@1liamo78 Did You try to find an answer to Mokshas question? Isn’t it most important to understand first , who is doing the searching/trying to find answers? 

[neovox]

Could it be that both are true..? There is free will, but only in relation to our perspective and experience. In Absolute sense it is all already there. In an Absolute since the "free will" that we experience from an individual perspective is connected to every other thought, action, vibration, appearance of separation that has ever existed and ever will exist that we're not conscious of. The "time" that we experience "free will" within only exist within our POV. So, yes there is free will in our experience, but no there is no free will in the timeless Absolute.

[freejoy]

24 minutes ago, 1liamo78 said:

@Jodistrict at last someone who understands my post, if we have free will then we are the only known thing in the universe that doesn’t follow cause and effect, but the determinists are assuming that consciousness comes from a material brain, but consciousness could be separate from space time and material and not be subject to the laws of cause and effect, but there are experiments that show brain activity in the right area of the brain happens about 1.5 seconds before we make a decision, but I’m not completely convinced that means proof of determinism 

You know there isn't a cause and effect.

You can plant a seed but can't "cause" it to grow.

If you knock off a glass cup you didn't cause it to break.

It appears we can help create conditions that can create more quantum probabilities a thing might happen.

[freejoy]

7 minutes ago, neovox said:

Could it be that both are true..? There is free will, but only in relation to our perspective and experience. In Absolute sense it is all already there. In an Absolute since the "free will" that we experience from an individual perspective is connected to every other thought, action, vibration, appearance of separation that has ever existed and ever will exist that we're not conscious of. The "time" that we experience "free will" within only exist within our POV. So, yes there is free will in our experience, but no there is no free will in the timeless Absolute.

Yes! That's very close to how I see it.

[1liamo78]

@At awe no, that is a discussion about spirituality and consciousness and a wider discussion on these matters, I’m talking about the specific subject of free will, Leo made a whole video about it if you want to understand more about the subject, and it is a video specifically about free will and not all the other spiritual stuff 

[1liamo78]

@neovox if I understand your reply,  that would suggest that free will is an illusion but we completely feel that we are free to choose,  

Well that seems to be the case 

But I might have misunderstood your point,  I am getting to tired, its 5.36am in the UK,  and I need to get my skinny ass to bed ?✌?

[freejoy]

1 minute ago, 1liamo78 said:

@neovox if I understand your reply,  that would suggest that free will is an illusion but we completely feel that we are free to choose,  

Well that seems to be the case 

I would like to comment.

Is the body an illusion? I see really real looking bodies out there. I experience pain in my body if I hit my finger with a hammer.

That's pretty real.

Same with free will.

Same with ego.

"Those without ego cast the first stone"

: )

[1liamo78]

The subject of free will has many ramifications if determinism is how it is,  ramifications like crime and punishment,  there are many philosophical talks questioning whether people should or should not be punished for crimes when they were not free to choose and many more ramifications,  obviously these side matters are to complicated and massive in agendas to discuss 

[1liamo78]

@freejoy sorry bud,I don't understand what you mean 

Cast the first stone to who and for what?

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

The argument against free will is determinism based on the notion that everything has a cause and thus every event is caused by preceding events

Not necessarily. For me it's about the fact that nothing is separate. Everything is connected to everything else. One can't exist without the other. No light without any darkness. Free will requires you to be able to make decisions in a self-contained bubble, independently of your environment. That means your culture, the society you live in, your family, your friends, the laws of nature, the will of other people and so on.

Also how free is your will exactly? Can you manifest an apple right now? Can you speak every language? Can you dance on the moon? Can you even choose what you want? Like did you choose your favorite color? Did you even choose to be born with a working pair of eyes so that you could perceive color in the first place?

You have a will, but your will isn't separate from my will. Like what if you want me to give you 10 bucks, but I don't want to? What if I want to live, but you shoot me with a pistol? 

Perhaps there is free will at the ultimate level, which would mean that you are an expression of free will, rather than an entity possessing free will. But you, as an ego, are rather limited in what you can do. You can't for example fly. If you want to fly you have to do that within the boundaries of physics (in the form of air planes for example)

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

But that would mean that creativity is not possible.

Also I as an artist have to say that free will isn't needed for creativity to happen. The best art happens when you are in a state of flow. A state of complete detachment. A state where there is nobody doing anything. Nobody creating anything. It's just art expressing itself. Creativity in it's purest form. Almost as if the art was creating itself. Flow means that you are like water in a river. You just flow. The water doesn't decide whether it flows left or right. It automatically goes with the path of least resistance. When I play a melody on my keyboard I'm not really creating anything. I didn't create sound. I didn't create notes. I didn't create the keyboard I am playing on. I can't even choose what sounds good and what sounds bad. It just sounds as it does. I just go with the flow, channeling the creative energy at the core of everything. So the creating is kind of happening all by itself. Reality creating itself for itself.

Edited March 25, 2021 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[freejoy]

1 minute ago, 1liamo78 said:

@freejoy sorry bud,I don't understand what you mean 

Cast the first stone to who and for what?

The ego is sometimes demonize, kind of like sin.

Just playing around.

[1liamo78]

@freejoy my ego seems to enjoy getting me into trouble ?

[At awe]

@1liamo78 Why Do You think Moksha asked You that question? Can the answer to how we identify ourselves influence the answer of Your question?

[1liamo78]

@DefinitelyNotARobot we can only go into flow after we have gained experience of a certain activity,  for example playing the keyboard first you learn the chords and scales and get finger muscle memory and through practice you can start going into the flow, with art you first learn about perspective and colour etc , someone with no painting experience can paint in the flow but it would be crap compared to someone in the flow who has had experience and practice 

[SamueLSD]

@1liamo78  No free will seems like a bad thing from a finite perspective. You need to see it in context with the bigger picture.

Let it be.

[1liamo78]

@At awe yes for sure it influences the answer,  but we can ask that question about every single thing we do or say or ask , and sometimes we just want to talk about a simple subject without having to consider everything about the nature of our existence etc, I could say does the nature of your existence influence your reply to me and we could go on asking that question forever and it will have as much influence as anything else,  so I'm just asking a specific question for a specific discussion 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@1liamo78 You can still enter flow, even if you don't know what you're doing. It's just a little harder because you are going to be busy figuring out what you are doing. If you never played the keyboard you are going to be busy testing out what each key does and how it sounds and so on. 

That being said, you have no control over flow. Flow just happens. You can't make it happen by will. You can prepare your mind in a certain way, but whether flow actually occurs isn't up to you. You have no control over it, because control isn't the point of flow. The point of flow is to let go of control. Trying to force flow will keep your from getting into flow.

[freejoy]

14 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Not necessarily. For me it's about the fact that nothing is separate. Everything is connected to everything else. One can't exist without the other. No light without any darkness. Free will requires you to be able to make decisions in a self-contained bubble, independently of your environment. That means your culture, the society you live in, your family, your friends, the laws of nature, the will of other people and so on.

Also how free is your will exactly? Can you manifest an apple right now? Can you speak every language? Can you dance on the moon? Can you even choose what you want? Like did you choose your favorite color? Did you even choose to be born with a working pair of eyes so that you could perceive color in the first place?

You have a will, but your will isn't separate from my will. Like what if you want me to give you 10 bucks, but I don't want to? What if I want to live, but you shoot me with a pistol? 

Perhaps there is free will at the ultimate level, which would mean that you are an expression of free will, rather than an entity possessing free will. But you, as an ego, are rather limited in what you can do. You can't for example fly. If you want to fly you have to do that within the boundaries of physics (in the form of air planes for example)

Also I as an artist have to say that free will isn't needed for creativity to happen. The best art happens when you are in a state of flow. A state of complete detachment. A state where there is nobody doing anything. Nobody creating anything. It's just art expressing itself. Creativity in it's purest form. Almost as if the art was creating itself. Flow means that you are like water in a river. You just flow. The water doesn't decide whether it flows left or right. It automatically goes with the path of least resistance. When I play a melody on my keyboard I'm not really creating anything. I didn't create sound. I didn't create notes. I didn't create the keyboard I am playing on. I can't even choose what sounds good and what sounds bad. It just sounds as it does. I just go with the flow, channeling the creative energy at the core of everything. So the creating is kind of happening all by itself. Reality creating itself for itself.

We don't have complete free will.

We are mostly programmed. It seems we first have a learn things.

Like how to paint. One can say painting took over but not if you don't know what a paint brush is.

Say in a few minutes a hundred thoughts come to mind. Where did those thoughts come from? Most likely quantum probabilities between the synapses in the tublicales.

One has free choice to focus on any particular thought by intention. Maybe?

[1liamo78]

@DefinitelyNotARobot exactly 

[1liamo78]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I'm a musician myself,  and for sure,  the more I practice a piece the more my "in flow" recordings sound better