How do you prove that reality can't be finite?

[Holygrail]

How can I prove that reality can't be finite? I kept arguing with a materialist and I kept explaining to him that reality must be infinite because if reality was finite, then there would have to be a force enforcing the boundaries of our reality, and that force would also have to be explained, and so on ad infinitum... But he kept arguing that in fact reality can be finite and that could just be a brute fact about the universe, that there wouldn't have to be a force enforcing the finitude of our reality. 

[Moksha]

Many scientists consider the universe to be finite. If it wasn't, how else could it expand and contract? Of course, that doesn't prove there aren't other universes, infinitely expressed. Nor does it prove there are.

The only bulletproof argument against finite materialism is direct realization of yourself, and of every other self, as Consciousness. In other words, you can't convince anyone else of anything, through conceptual arguments. The mind is incapable of grasping ultimate reality. It is called a Mystery for this reason. Awakening is beyond conceptualization, and is the direct realization that You are not your mind.

[Holygrail]

58 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Many scientists consider the universe to be finite. If it wasn't, how else could it expand and contract? Of course, that doesn't prove there aren't other universes, infinitely expressed. Nor does it prove there are.

The only bulletproof argument against finite materialism is direct realization of yourself, and of every other self, as Consciousness. In other words, you can't convince anyone else of anything, through conceptual arguments. The mind is incapable of grasping ultimate reality. It is called a Mystery for this reason. Awakening is beyond conceptualization, and is the direct realization that You are not your mind.

That's what I kept explaining to him, that only really through direct experience can you awaken to your true existential infinite self, as he just kept brushing it off at a hallucination and as something that can't be trusted. it was already obvious that he was making an ungrounded assumption about the validity of enlightenment. If you ever wanted to pursue any potential truth, it requires faith and radical open-mindedness, I have faith that I can have an enlightenment experience that is beyond "fantasy" and you'll just know, no further debate or explanation needed. And of course the metaphysical and epistemological theory helps a lot towards guiding you to truth. Great answer btw

Edited March 23, 2021 by Holygrail

[LastThursday]

You could just be super pragmatic about it.

I have a briefcase full of my stamp collection (nerd). Despite that briefcase only taking up a small corner of my study, I could easily spend the next month looking at the detail of each stamp and sorting them by country etc. Or, I could go into my friend's modest garden and start examining every blade of grass with a magnifying glass and each would be different, and spend the next year doing just that.

That is reality, there's just so much damn stuff out there. It's moot whether it's infinite or not, your life isn't long enough to see it all.

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Holygrail said:

How can I prove that reality can't be finite?

Imagine you did prove reality isn’t finite. That proof would be an individual separate something, or, finite. 

How could you prove that anything can’t be something else? It’s sort of a hang up of a double negative in thought.  Like, how could you prove a horse isn’t a unicorn? You can’t, cause it already isn’t. 

Perhaps the opposite approach would be of interest....reality isn’t finite, how can he prove that it is?  He can’t, because it isn’t. 

It’s possible this leads him to question his experience a little more. 

[Tim R]

@Holygrail

2 hours ago, Holygrail said:

How can I prove that reality can't be finite?

Look for the boundary. Where the universe "ends". There can't be such a boundary, because all boundaries have two sides. 

The universe therefor never ends. The 3D space-time-continuum might be finite, yes. But even so, it simply constitutes a "larger" 4D "space", since an infinite number of dimensions always constitutes the next higher dimension. Like 3D is "made out of" infinitely many 2D plains, which in turn are "made out of" infinitely many 1D strings. 

But the key thing to understand is Non-Duality. Every boundary has two sides.

Non-Duality = Infinity

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, Holygrail said:

That's what I kept explaining to him, that only really through direct experience can you awaken to your true existential infinite self, as he just kept brushing it off at a hallucination and as something that can't be trusted. it was already obvious that he was making an ungrounded assumption about the validity of enlightenment. If you ever wanted to pursue any potential truth, it requires faith and radical open-mindedness, I have faith that I can have an enlightenment experience that is beyond "fantasy" and you'll just know, no further debate or explanation needed. And of course the metaphysical and epistemological theory helps a lot towards guiding you to truth. Great answer btw

The thing about awakening ourselves, or about helping others awaken is that, as you already realize, it only happens when Consciousness decides it is ready for it to happen. An interesting note from commentary on the Bhagavad Gita:

Krishna does not want these profound truths told to anyone who is not ready. Anyone lacking devotion or self-control, who does not want to hear spiritual instruction or who scoffs at it, should not be accepted as a student.

- Eknath Easwaran

You are right about the clarity of awakening. When it happens, it is a profound, direct realization that is undeniable. It feels like you have been enjoying a good night's sleep, riding along with the dream as if it were real, and suddenly your eyes pop open and you realize that it was all just a dream. It is complete clarity.

Conceptual arguments can be entertaining, but only if you don't take them too seriously, and realize their ultimate futility. I agree with you that science can help open the door, especially when you look at the extremes of reality, beyond ordinary human experience. Quantum physics and metaphysics both point to a far more mysterious reality than any honest scientist can claim to understand. If nothing else, the materialist should at least admit that he knows nothing about these ultimate extremes.

[Batman]

Proof is itself finite, so how could you prove 'that' which is in-finite with that which is finite? In other words, proof is a limitation within infinity, and will never, ever, could represent, not to mention be, infinity.

Infinity is the 'substance' of every proof, and already is self-evident. 

Even in court, a proof is not the truth of the matter which is being litigated by the parties. Proof serves to convince a judge or an arbitrator regarding factual claim. But the judge or the arbitrator will never have direct experience of the facts in the matter they adjudicate. They can only judge based on the claims and facts brought by the parties to them, and rule for in favor of the party that argued the more probable case. 

This is so with Consciousness (although every analogy eventually fall short of the mark when you approach absolutes). You cannot proof Consciousness because Consciousness is the substance of the proof. This is a self-referential problem, and why only you can be directly conscious of infinity, because it is you (and by you I don't mean the self ego mind). Only Consciousness can be 'conscious' of Consciousness, for it is it's inherent 'quality'.

You, as a self, will never be able to prove to another self that Infinity exists, because it does not exist in the relative reality that a relative self exist in. This is also why arguing with materialists, or trying to convince anyone regarding absolute truth, is doomed the failure. Only Consciousness can 'know' itself. So you can only invite a relative self to inquire it's true infinite nature as Consciousness.

[snowyowl]

How about black holes? Relativity theory tells us that gravity stretches and warps space-time. So how much does it get stretched going from the outside to the inside of a black hole? Including at the singularity. 

Imagine having a very long tape measure with a clock on the end. You hold onto one end and throw the other end with the clock into the singularity at the centre of the black hole. How far is the measurement at the singularity end? And what date is it? 

From my limited knowledge, the usual answer is that the equations break down when you divide by zero at the singularity to get infinite density (and scientists hate infinity in the physical universe - maybe zero really is infinity ). But perhaps someone else in the forum knows the science better than me. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by snowyowl

[Carl-Richard]

If we assume reality to be everything that exists, ask to be shown what it is that limits reality, and ask if that limit isn't a part of reality as well.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

A materialists world view is radically different than yours, you can't convey these ideas through language and logic. At least not if the person you are trying to convey them to holds such a different perspective on reality.

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

Perhaps the opposite approach would be of interest....reality isn’t finite, how can he prove that it is?

This puts it quiet perfectly. Your mistake was that you were trying to argue from YOUR perspective. A materialist lives in a different reality than you do. What's true for you might not be true for them and vic versa. You have to take that into account. Don't argue from your POV. Don't defend any position. Don't even argue at all. Just guide them towards the truth, one step at the time. Try to see life from their POV. Try to understand what makes them think the way they do. You can't pour understanding into their head. You have to cause it to happen, from within their mind.

It's like you are carefully laying out a path of breadcrumbs so that they can follow you, one point at a time. But in order to do so you have to figure out where they are and where you are. Then you have to figure out how to get them from A to B.  Then you sort of "invite" them into your mind. Your way of thinking.

How you do that depends on you. Some people will have an easier time following you than others. Some will understand you rather quickly, while others are going to be very stubborn. Some won't get what you are saying at all and will keep insisting on their way of thinking. And that's fine! Don't get frustrated. Don't get annoyed. It can be healthy to kind of "test" your ideas on a person who's much more different than you. To hear their arguments and see the holes in your own. To fail at guiding them to the truth. It can show you what you could do better next time.

So what could you do next time? Well as @Nahm put it: Try the opposite approach. You've tried to talk about an infinite reality to a person who believes in a finite one. You are basically trying to get them to accept the polar opposite of what they believe to be true. First they have to admit to themselves that they actually don't know. That they actually can't proof that reality is finite. That it's just an assumption they're making. This opens their mind up just a little bit. Then you have to start guiding them towards the truth. You'll learn a lot from just trial and error.

But most people are so stuck in their own world view that this will take months if not years. So unless you are ready to invest a lot of time into a person, which doesn't even guarantee that they are going to understand you, there is barely a point in having an argument other than to learn something from it or to try and understand the other person, while making them understand you. For most people it's not about creating a mutual understanding, but about being right.

[Aaron p]

If, for the sake of ease of understanding, we take spacial finitude for example...and ask the question, "when you come to the edge of your finite spacial existence, whatever is beyond that must be infinite." 

What would happen if you crossed that barrier. Or what would that barrier look like. Either the universe is limited or unlimited, both are impossible.

[Forestluv]

@Holygrail If reality is finite, it’s finite relative to what? . . . Oops, we just popped that finite bubble ?

[Scholar]

This is like debating what Little Red Riding Hoods grandma made herself for breakfast two days before the wolf ate her. Believe it or not, but the answer to your question depends on whatever you want it to be.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Scholar

[Megan Alecia]

Infinity = things not being still. Infinite possibilities, guaranteed that you know what to do and how to do it (like this man with his molotov cocktails he saw from a game).

Edited March 31, 2021 by Megan Alecia

[Mason Riggle]

@Holygrail Ask him where the Universe is. 

"Where is the universe? Ever thought of that one? Where is it? Well, you can’t say where because everywhere has to be in relation to something. There would have to be another universe to say where this one is. But then, since those two together would constitute ‘the universe,’ we wouldn’t—still—be able to say where it was. It isn’t anywhere." - Alan Watts

[BipolarGrowth]

For your entire existence, new experiences, information, thoughts, people, etc. have continually come into your present moment experience of reality. Literally everyone has dreams at night in which their consciousness generates completely new realities. There is no memory before birth, but there also is no real memory of what you did at 3:02 AM on June 18th, 2010. Where is the empirical evidence that this present moment experience is not permanent? Where is the evidence that the ever-growing complexity ends? Your conscious present moment experience is Infinite, all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent (only it exists), etc. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[Mu_]

@Holygrail How do you prove the world is finite?

[SoonHei]

simple, by proving that it is infinite.

[Jodistrict]

We can easily conceive of infinities in our minds through mathematics.  The integers go on for infinity.  The even number and odd number go for infinity.  And mathematicians  can prove the integers, odd numbers, and even numbers are the same size.  There are also different sizes of infinity.  Even though our particular known universe is finite, it should give a materialist pause to wonder that our minds are able to so easily articulate infinities and describe their properties.    In addition, the universe is only about 14 billions years old meaning time doesn’t go back farther than that, so what occurred before the big bang and how do you measure it, raising the issue of eternity.