Should I follow Stage Orange success advice?

[Elevated]

6 hours ago, Woke456 said:

So what do you mean by waking up, you mean like when you on psychadelics?

By Waking Up I mean having an enlightenment experience. Psychedelics can give you a temporary blast deeply into this. I've experienced myself as the Universe while on acid for example. I literally felt as if I was everything around me, and that every person was myself as the Universe. There was still an "I" in the sense that I was still there, but "I" was the exact same as the "You" and "It" of the rest of the Universe. As such, I felt intense love for all things as myself.

These experiences can be had completely sober to a lesser and even greater extent. There are also different types of these experiences, like different flavours that can be tasted alone or in various combinations. 

In the sense that I have used it in this thread though, I am highlighting the realization that all knowledge you have about reality is NOT the reality. Given all the cognitive biases we have, the imperfect memory, the inability to fully understand the infinite experience around us, it's like we are walking around with an imperfect map of Paris. We think we've actually seen Paris when we've really just had our head buried in our imperfect map. That's how our consciousness interfaces with the reality around it. When we Wake Up, we are waking up to that fact. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Elevated

[Woke456]

2 hours ago, Elevated said:

By Waking Up I mean having an enlightenment experience. Psychedelics can give you a temporary blast deeply into this. I've experienced myself as the Universe while on acid for example. I literally felt as if I was everything around me, and that every person was myself as the Universe. There was still an "I" in the sense that I was still there, but "I" was the exact same as the "You" and "It" of the rest of the Universe. As such, I felt intense love for all things as myself.

These experiences can be had completely sober to a lesser and even greater extent. There are also different types of these experiences, like different flavours that can be tasted alone or in various combinations. 

In the sense that I have used it in this thread though, I am highlighting the realization that all knowledge you have about reality is NOT the reality. Given all the cognitive biases we have, the imperfect memory, the inability to fully understand the infinite experience around us, it's like we are walking around with an imperfect map of Paris. We think we've actually seen Paris when we've really just had our head buried in our imperfect map. That's how our consciousness interfaces with the reality around it. When we Wake Up, we are waking up to that fact. 

Not trying to be a dick (really I mean that), but I'm still seeing that if I invest in biotech so that blind people can see again, that's more real than you sitting around altering your state.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Woke456

[Elevated]

48 minutes ago, Woke456 said:

Not trying to be a dick (really I mean that), but I'm still seeing that if I invest in biotech so that blind people can see again, that's more real than you sitting around altering your state.

Firstly, you're still not seeing the difference between map and territory. It doesn't matter how useful a map may be, or what effect it may have on reality. It is still imperfect, it is still illusory because it cannot fully capture the entirety of reality. Just think it through. Can your mind fully capture the intricate complexity of reality? The answer is no. It cannot. Therefore, you are operating in reality with a map that does not perfectly reflect that reality. That doesn't mean the map is useless. The map is incredibly useful for certain goals and can become more useful the more complex it becomes and the more accurately it reflects reality. 

Secondly, I am not saying that Waking Up is any more useful than using a map. We are not talking about usefulness here. We are talking about Truth. It is true that if you use a map that informs you to invest in biotech so that blind people can see again, you are creating a reality in which blind people can see again. That is true and incredibly useful. The "Truth" of the map though, is that the map you and the people in biotech used to inform your decisions doesn't perfectly reflect the reality you are changing. That doesn't mean you cannot use it to create very real change, but you are still just using an imperfect map.

So then, what is the usefulness of Waking Up? It opens up your epistemological and ontological toolkit. Once you realize that your interface with reality is an imperfect map that will never be perfect you are able to see the map for what it is, an imperfect map. This prevents you from becoming ideological about whatever map you're currently using, be it Christianity, Islam, Science, Capitalism, etc., because you realize that whatever the belief system, whatever the toolkit, it is an imperfect map.

You may argue then that science already does this through peer-review and the other elements that ensure science is being updated and more accurately reflecting reality, that science doesn't claim to have a perfect map. This is also true. However, it is also true that science informs and limits how science can be used to understand reality. The system you use to create your map defines what shapes the map can take, and what elements of reality the map can represent. Many people within science don't understand this, and assume that science is a perfect map for creating maps. It is not. That does not mean I am anti-science, nor does not it mean that I don't think science is useful. I am a behavioural neuroscience student, I love science. However, it does mean that I think science is imperfect. Waking Up to that fact helps us do science better, rather than being dogmatically blind about science. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Elevated

[Woke456]

@Elevated

57 minutes ago, Elevated said:

This prevents you from becoming ideological about whatever map you're currently using, be it Christianity, Islam, Science, Capitalism, etc., because you realize that whatever the belief system, whatever the toolkit, it is an imperfect map.

Cool.   There's literally a subreddit with 400,000 users that makes jokes about dogma imperfections all day if you're intersted. It is pretty cool and freeing once you get to that level.

I think the next step is cognitive enhancement without using pscyadelics or meditating all day because both are such passive techniques.  Breathing methods seem to help me see and particpate on more levels without taking up much time.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Woke456

[fopylo]

@Elevated

On 3/22/2021 at 11:04 PM, Elevated said:

Consider that it's not a case of "either one or the other," but is instead, "both this and that." You can have practices that are very Stage Orange and, "anti-mystical," so to speak, but are okay when you know that they are at the end of the day, all bullshit. Remember, what mysticism tells us is that the map is not the territory, but that doesn't mean that the map is not useful.

Learn to build a very robust Stage Orange map, while knowing that it is just a map at the end of the day. Once you feel you've really integrated the lessons of Stage Orange, then begin updating that map with Stage Green ideas, and then Stage Yellow ideas, and so on.

How can I have practices to focus on while knowing that it is all bullshit? lol
But what do you mean by "the map is not the territory"? I mean, we kind of use maps to navigate through life if I understood what you're meaning by maps.

Also, the main issue I was bringing up is about the integration of all other stages since some of them contradict each other. There are many paradoxes, and the more I learn, the more paradoxical it seems. Not gonna lie, it scares me a bit, yet I know there's no way back so I feel stronger. But still I feel the need to resolve paradoxes because it really creates barriers for me to continue with my life

[EddieEddie1995]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:51 PM, Elevated said:

These experiences can be had completely sober to a lesser and even greater extent. There are also different types of these experiences, like different flavours that can be tasted alone or in various combinations. 

I em having defferent flavours only on weed. It is Amazing!

I can't wait to dive deeper with psychedelics

[Elevated]

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

How can I have practices to focus on while knowing that it is all bullshit? lol

Remember, there is a difference between useful and Truth. Useful is that it will help you accomplish your goals. It's okay to want to have goals or to have experiences, that's part of Growing Up and part of enjoying your time here. Many people will focus solely on "Waking Up," and say that having any goals or any desires whatsoever is anti-spiritual. I feel like that mentality can be a little anti-spiritual, although if someone wants to live in a monastery and focus only on Waking Up that's totally fine for them to do.

However, many spiritual teachers have "returned to the masses" and taught what they learned. To teach spirituality to a modern audience, you need to understand how they think, and so that means having the proper map of reality to understand them. That means learning how to speak to Stage Orange, learning how to speak to Stage Green, Yellow, etc.

Take Leo for example. He has gone through the stages, but he has also had many awakenings. His awakenings have shown him the "Truth," but going through the stages has taught him how to communicate it to people. Going through Stage Orange self-improvement was what allowed him to make his channel in the first place and to amass enough wealth that he could focus solely on the higher stages. It was incredibly useful and part of his process. 

We know these maps are ultimately not the territory but they allow us to achieve high consciousness goals and to communicate with the people at those stages. 

 

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

But what do you mean by "the map is not the territory"? I mean, we kind of use maps to navigate through life if I understood what you're meaning by maps.

By "map" I mean any understanding that humans have about the territory or reality. No matter what you do you are only ever working with a map. Think about it. If you have an imperfect mind, which we all do, and you are understanding all of your experience with that imperfect mind, that means you will always have an imperfect map. As such, you will never actually "know" the territory, or reality, exactly as it is. The map is not the territory. Your understanding of a thing is not the thing itself.

Like I said earlier, your entire experience of reality is like exploring Paris with your head buried in a map. You go see everything, you see the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, and all the other sites of Paris. However, you never actually lift your eyes from your map. You think, "wow Paris was so amazing, I saw and experienced so much!" And yet, you never actually saw anything besides the map you have of Paris. Given the imperfect human mind, the cognitive biases we have, the self-deception, the imperfect sense organs (we only see a fraction of the total light spectrum), etc., how could it possibly be any other way? We are walking around Paris with our head buried in our map, believing that the map is Paris, when in reality it is not even a very good map of Paris! 

That is what I mean by the map is not the territory. You never actually see reality. You only have see your map of it. 

 

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

Also, the main issue I was bringing up is about the integration of all other stages since some of them contradict each other. There are many paradoxes, and the more I learn, the more paradoxical it seems. Not gonna lie, it scares me a bit, yet I know there's no way back so I feel stronger. But still I feel the need to resolve paradoxes because it really creates barriers for me to continue with my life

Yepp that's self-improvement haha, welcome to the club. This why many people here, including myself, are not yet at Stage Yellow. Stage Yellow is where you really begin to make sense of the paradoxes, because you begin to see the paradoxes in the context of each stage. What is true for one stage might not be true for another stage, but it is still useful at that stage. And, of course, you have to go through all the stages. You cannot truly understand Stage Green until you've gone through and integrated Stage Orange. It's like building a house with a missing floor. It doesn't matter how pristine and beautiful all your other floors are, if you're missing one of the floors your building is going to collapse.

Keep educating yourself, keep taking action, and keep moving forward. Things will make more and more sense the more you understand the theory, and you'll really understand the theory when you've practiced it in your life by taking massive action. If you're at Stage Orange, focus on Stage Orange. Do self-improvement programs, make some money so you can follow your passion, get better social skills so you can have the type of people you want in your life, get a better body, etc. Go through that process, while knowing at the highest level, that it's all bullshit and it's all just part of a larger process. 

[fopylo]

@Elevated

21 hours ago, Elevated said:

You never actually see reality. You only have see your map of it. 

I understand what you said about Paris, but I can't really apply this metaphor to reality. From what I understood you say that all what I'm experiencing is not everything I can actually experience now?

 

22 hours ago, Elevated said:

Do self-improvement programs, make some money so you can follow your passion, get better social skills so you can have the type of people you want in your life, get a better body, etc. Go through that process, while knowing at the highest level, that it's all bullshit and it's all just part of a larger process.

I was reading that like "ok I see, to dive into stage orange without giving it a meaning that I'm better than it, ok" and then you hit with the "while knowing it's all bullshit" haha, this is exactly the problem. It's hard for me to start a business or something like that because I feel like I understand higher things and that "I'm better". I know you can say to take only the important elements of stage orange, but I feel that in general I don't have so much passion for creating a business (in fact, a book publishing business - That's because I've lost passion to publish books on "low stage orange topics" forgive this way of saying but I'm trying to be honest). Don't you get also this weird feeling of diving into something you believe you've outgrown already?

[Elevated]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Elevated

I understand what you said about Paris, but I can't really apply this metaphor to reality. From what I understood you say that all what I'm experiencing is not everything I can actually experience now?

What I'm saying is that you cannot experience all that there is to experience. Think about it. When light from a lightbulb hits the surface of something, that light bounces off the object and then goes to your eye. You are never actually seeing the object. You are only seeing the light reflected from the object. Your interface with visual reality is based on light bouncing off objects, rather than objects themselves. You have never seen any of the things you currently see around you. You are only ever seeing the light reflected from them. How can you really say that you know what you look like, your parents look like, or your friends? You've never actually seen them. You've only ever seen the light that is reflected from them.

Your brain generates an image for you based on how it processes that light. 

You are operating within a world simulation and assuming that this world simulation accurately reflects the world around you. It does well enough to survive, but how accurately do you really think that it reflects reality?

This is not only true for vision, but for all the senses. All the senses operate on physical laws whereby the brain generates a simulation based on the physical properties occurring around us that are then interpreted by sense organs and converted into "mind stuff" by mechanisms in the brain. These mechanisms are very good, but not perfect. 

Now what about our thoughts? Our brain interprets the information, both sensory and linguistic, that we receive from the outside world. The mechanisms that we use to interpret that information are imperfect. We have cognitive biases, we have a cap on our intelligence, we have a cap on the knowledge that we can know about the things in the world, etc. Our brain is generating an understanding about reality with several deficits. That understanding can be useful, but it will never be perfectly accurate. Never. You do not know anything you think you know half as much as you think you know it. 

 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

I was reading that like "ok I see, to dive into stage orange without giving it a meaning that I'm better than it, ok" and then you hit with the "while knowing it's all bullshit" haha, this is exactly the problem. It's hard for me to start a business or something like that because I feel like I understand higher things and that "I'm better". I know you can say to take only the important elements of stage orange, but I feel that in general I don't have so much passion for creating a business (in fact, a book publishing business - That's because I've lost passion to publish books on "low stage orange topics" forgive this way of saying but I'm trying to be honest). Don't you get also this weird feeling of diving into something you believe you've outgrown already?

What was the point of publishing books? For yourself to read? Or for others to read? If it's for yourself to read, then yeah okay I understand that you only want to read books above Stage Orange. If it's for others though? Why not create a publishing company that contains books all along the Spiral? If someone is Stage Orange, your publishing company could release Stage Orange books, build some trust and credibility with this person. As they read the books you publish, you can advertise Stage Green books in those Stage Orange books. Then, maybe a few of them decide to buy those books. This would expose these Stage Orange people to Stage Green ideas. You've just triggered their evolution into Stage Green. But it doesn't stop there, you also advertise Stage Yellow books in Stage Green books, and Stage Turquoise books in Stage Yellow books.

You are helping people move up the Spiral. Each stage is important and each person must go through all the stages. By owning a publishing company you can help people ascend the Spiral, merely by exposing the right people to the right next stage. 

[Waken]

My best feeling thought on how to navigate these things: just do what attracts/excites you most

Edited March 29, 2021 by Waken

[fopylo]

@Elevated

14 minutes ago, Elevated said:

You are never actually seeing the object. You are only seeing the light reflected from the object. Your interface with visual reality is based on light bouncing off objects, rather than objects themselves. You have never seen any of the things you currently see around you. You are only ever seeing the light reflected from them. How can you really say that you know what you look like, your parents look like, or your friends? You've never actually seen them. You've only ever seen the light that is reflected from them

I mean, there is literally no other way to see the object. There is literally no seeing without light, so we can forget about this sense altogether without light.
You could also go further and ask - well, maybe everything here is not real since it's an interpretation of the mind (sounds, visuals, touch)? Maybe those things don't even exist but our mind makes it look like it does? (it is hard for me to believe that). But then you can also ask "what if our minds are actually projecting to ourselves what is in fact real, and not just a mere interpretation? (and to take this question seriously).
Even if the conversion is imperfect, how does it help? I mean, how can you experience what might be the real deal behind what the mind is capable of delivering? (We do it through the mind though).

 

26 minutes ago, Elevated said:

Now what about our thoughts? Our brain interprets the information, both sensory and linguistic, that we receive from the outside world. The mechanisms that we use to interpret that information are imperfect. We have cognitive biases, we have a cap on our intelligence, we have a cap on the knowledge that we can know about the things in the world, etc. Our brain is generating an understanding about reality with several deficits. That understanding can be useful, but it will never be perfectly accurate. Never. You do not know anything you think you know half as much as you think you know it.

I get what you say about having cognitive biases which prevent you from opening your mind to understand things deeper, or to see the bigger picture. So if it will never be perfectly accurate, then what's the point in even talking about it? It's sounds kinda sad lol

[fopylo]

@Waken It's hard because of all those resistances I've created because I'm always thirsty for the bigger picture and want to evolve to the highest stages possible. I feel like this is still a Stage Orange mentality I have which I feel is serving me both good and also not so good

[Elevated]

32 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Elevated

I mean, there is literally no other way to see the object. There is literally no seeing without light, so we can forget about this sense altogether without light.
You could also go further and ask - well, maybe everything here is not real since it's an interpretation of the mind (sounds, visuals, touch)? Maybe those things don't even exist but our mind makes it look like it does? (it is hard for me to believe that). But then you can also ask "what if our minds are actually projecting to ourselves what is in fact real, and not just a mere interpretation? (and to take this question seriously).
Even if the conversion is imperfect, how does it help? I mean, how can you experience what might be the real deal behind what the mind is capable of delivering? (We do it through the mind though).

 

I get what you say about having cognitive biases which prevent you from opening your mind to understand things deeper, or to see the bigger picture. So if it will never be perfectly accurate, then what's the point in even talking about it? It's sounds kinda sad lol

I think at this point any more discussion will just make you more confused. I don't mean that as an insult, but these are just very big topics that you're just learning to grapple with. Trust me, I've been there, and still find myself getting stuck. As does everyone.

I highly recommend the book, "The Listening Society," by Hanzi Freinacht. It's about what a Stage Yellow society would look like, he even talks about Spiral Dynamics. He talks about several dimensions of development that I think will really help you begin making the fine distinctions you need to piece apart these paradoxes. I cannot recommend it enough, it's probably one of the best books I've read in the past 5 years. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Elevated

[Waken]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Waken It's hard because of all those resistances I've created because I'm always thirsty for the bigger picture and want to evolve to the highest stages possible. I feel like this is still a Stage Orange mentality I have which I feel is serving me both good and also not so good

Yea, I understand. Years ago I was much more tryhard, trying to read and understand all sort of things. Even if I didn't feel like doing that so much in the moment, sometimes I would push myself to do something in order to get something. A lot of that, needless to say, wasn't really coming from a relaxed or joyous place. If you do something with for example anxiety, like a restless energy, what energy are you anchoring within yourself there? Of course more of that restless, tryhard, anxious energy. That's not a very advanced feeling/state.

How I see it, whatever you are choosing is what you'll be getting more and more of. If an anxious drive is what you chose, you become more of that and you'll live more in that world. If you look at all you can do now, and choose what option contains most joy, bliss, peace, curiosity, etc, then the more you make that your world. And aren't these feelings of relaxation, well-being, joy, excitement, etc, higher "stage" energies? So I would say that if you want to become the most advanced version of yourself, then especially you would act on the option with the best feeling in it. That can in some moments just be calling up a friend, taking a walk, etc. I would say that if you chose the path that makes you feel best in every moment, you'll end up in the best feeling state.

I would relax more, act less from your head and more from what feels best.