illbeyourmirror

Free will - does it exist?

135 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

And why are you dreaming this up , your comment sound just as silly as your logic. LOGIC!!!

arent we funny? haha

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11 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95 you're not being open minded enough for me.

@Origins Just because i am not accepting your ideas doesnt mean i am not taking them into account. 

Notice i said i can be wrong. You assume i am the closeminded one maybe it is the opossite.

I am still open to taking into account any arguments you may bring in the future if you want though.

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On 3/11/2021 at 5:01 AM, EmptyVase said:

I find that once a certain threshold is reached, longer periods require less and less effort. Involuntarily 'snapping back from the void' into thought realm happens rather random ime, though the degree of 'involuntarilesseness' is also a matter of practice. 

For me, that threshold was about 5 seconds of thoughtless gaps. That was long enough to realize that it's actually possible to perceive without thoughts. Then the thoughtless gaps between thoughts turned into their own realms.

I've also noticed, it's not so much the thoughts themselves - it is the mind's relationship with thoughts. Many minds are immersed into thinking - like a person swimming in an ocean. It's not so much the ocean water, it's one's relationship to the ocean water.

I know enter conscious states in which thoughts may appear, yet they aren't thought-ish. Technically, it is a thought - yet in essence it's not a thought. It just becomes part of the experience. A thought may appear, yet it's part of the dance with emotions, sensations, images, intuition, creativity etc. During the experience, the mind isn't even judging what counts as a "thought, there is experience of being prior to that. 

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9 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95 You haven't refuted them either. I can only roll from questions, not continuous statements of what you've already said statements which I've asked questions about that you haven't provided answers to. I really can't be bothered with this kind of conversational style, all I want is straightforward (1) questions (2) answers (3) discussion not (1) statements (2) defend statements without any changes (3) defend statements without any changes while pretending that you've been open minded. Why would you believe you've been open minded when you've barely done any investigation into my statements? I've asked you questions but you've provided very minimal if any answers to them, so what is fair to conclude on my end versus your end? Open mindedness involves behaviours not beliefs. "I believe I am the most open minded person in the world" is a delusional statement when you show no evidence for it. Do not waste my time. This is a public forum where real people say shit, they or at least I don't want my life taken up with needless bullshit when I'm trying to get stuff done, so if you wanted to be respected involve yourself seriously with demonstrating that you're sincerely looking for the truth or just fuck off like I told you earlier. Get into it, or get out. I don't give a shit about your "open mindedness in the future" when you've shown little to no evidence here, you're full of shit pandering to "ego and god" nonstop while not answering questions in relation to.

I was arrogant i admit it. You have the right to assume these things from what i presented here.

I actually have one question.

do you have any other evidence to support free will apart from that anecdotal exercise you gave me wich include switching my awareness from one thing to another?

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Just now, Origins said:

@AdamR95 Refute them then. This is a discussion. If you don't wish to refute them just quote someone else in future. Let's not waste anymore of each others time.

you are wasting your time freely based on your free will :P

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2 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

you are wasting your time freely based on your free will :P

@AdamR95 More evidence for me to take you as seriously as a woman with a chihuahua in a handbag wearing a hat with "Pepper spray beware" written on it.

Free will is an experiential phenomenon @AdamR95 , if you can't experience, maybe you actually just don't have it. I am saying I have free will and it is something that I can rawly discriminate between determinism, something that I've attempted to provide you with exercises and questions to comprehend but that you've failed to so far be able to reflect on enough to see my perspective. Is it my failure to come up with exercises for you to see it? No. I'm not at all responsible for what you can and can't see, merely provide what I believe are the building blocks for developing a proper discussion on the subject, questions and an exercise, the former to promote discussion and the latter to generate an experiential component to reinforce the discussion. You haven't delved into my questions deeply and you haven't expounded upon my retorts very well, I corner you on "ego" and then all of a sudden "ego" doesn't matter, I corner you on "god" and now "god" doesn't seem to matter anymore either as I've heard little more from you there. I can't conclude anything more other than pursuing this any further is a waste of time until you're able to demonstrate that you're properly reflecting on and engaging the topic as I have.

For whatever reason you want my attention, like I said in the beginning I thought of you as an attention seeker, I ask you to stop quoting me unless you're going to get into it and you follow up like a chihuahua around dinner time. I won't be giving you anymore.

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I feel as though I have to believe we have SOME control over what we think, or at least over our level of awareness of the thoughts/impulses/cravings that come to mind. Is our level/state of consciousness an independent factor, or is it yet another aspect of all that falls under a lack of free will? 

Would raising your level of consciousness/awareness affect the degree to which you may have some percentage of free will? I struggle to see the point of "working toward self-discipline" or planning the development of any sort of disciplinary practice ie. yoga, meditation, etc. if things are simply meant to work out however they may. Do I sit on the sidelines and watch my life unfold before me?

To say that free will doesn't exist is to admit to being a puppet in the world we live in. Everything has, is, and will be decided for us. How we feel, how we think, what we do, how we react, where we go, the rate at which we do things... LIKE WHAT? How could I have been so clueless as to believe I had any control over everything that's happened in my life up until this point if every sense of control I had was merely an illusion? How could I have bought into something so fundamentally wrong, but natural? I just don't get it. 

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4 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95 More evidence for me to take you as seriously as a woman with a chihuahua in a handbag wearing a hat with "Pepper spray beware" written on it.

Free will is an experiential phenomenon @AdamR95 , if you can't experience, maybe you actually just don't have it. I am saying I have free will and it is something that I can rawly discriminate between determinism, something that I've attempted to provide you with exercises and questions to comprehend but that you've failed to so far be able to reflect on enough to see my perspective. Is it my failure to come up with exercises for you to see it? No. I'm not at all responsible for what you can and can't see, merely provide what I believe are the building blocks for developing a proper discussion on the subject, questions and an exercise, the former to promote discussion and the latter to generate an experiential component to reinforce the discussion. You haven't delved into my questions deeply and you haven't expounded upon my retorts very well, I corner you on "ego" and then all of a sudden "ego" doesn't matter, I corner you on "god" and now "god" doesn't seem to matter anymore either as I've heard little more from you there. I can't conclude anything more other than pursuing this any further is a waste of time until you're able to demonstrate that you're properly reflecting on and engaging the topic as I have.

For whatever reason you want my attention, like I said in the beginning I thought of you as an attention seeker, I ask you to stop quoting me unless you're going to get into it and you follow up like a chihuahua around dinner time. I won't be giving you anymore.

@Origins I am gonna try to go with your suggestions and keep it more civilized though just because i am curious.

lets sum it up, correct me if i am wrong anywhere:

1- You say that we are awareness wich has free will

2- free will operates within energetic fields

3 - awareness has power through energetic fields to manifest something into reality

4 - the way to prove it to oneself is through self observation

this points i consider the important ones maybe i missed any?

and my points simplified are:

1 - reality is the way it is

2 - any part (wich includes ego) of reality has no power over the way reality is

3 - what we call "free will" is a feeling wich occurs within awareness

4 - you can be aware of ilusory nature (points 1,2,3) of "free will" with self observation

the 3 and 4 i added now to represent more accurately my point of view

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@AdamR95 

"1- You say that we are awareness wich has free will"

"2- free will operates within energetic fields"

"3 -awareness has power through energetic fields to manifest something into reality"

Where did I say this? Explicitly.

This is why its important to ask questions Adam, it can be easy to make poor assumptions about what another person is saying otherwise.

There are obviously language barriers here Adam, you need to be self honest about that and ask more questions so you're not drawing incorrect inferences. This is just how it has to be for you, that's my recommendation as a linguistic doctor here I suggest you take it. Dr. Nick by the way, you can see me featured in many Simpsons episodes.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95 

"1- You say that we are awareness wich has free will"

"2- free will operates within energetic fields"

"3 -awareness has power through energetic fields to manifest something into reality"

Where did I say this? Explicitly.

This is why its important to ask questions Adam, it can be easy to make poor assumptions about what another person is saying otherwise.

There are obviously language barriers here Adam, you need to be self honest about that and ask more questions so you're not drawing incorrect inferences. This is just how it has to be for you, that's my recommendation as a linguistic doctor here I suggest you take it. Dr. Nick by the way, you can see me featured in many Simpsons episodes.

You didnt say that explicitly. i put that into my words so i can see if i understand it.

make your own points if you disagree with what i wrote.

Edited by AdamR95

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@AdamR95 I have zero need to anymore. I did not even imply it. If I did not even imply it, I imagine "theory of implication" is going to be the devil at the heel right throughout what little of this can be referred to as a "discussion"; more like the avant-garde of internet arguing. Not enough artisanship for me though. I'm out. If you're unable to either stick to what I say explicitly, show that you're capable of drawing correct inferences or invite more questioning after being told your inferences were incorrect, holding you back after school to concentrate further on your studies in detention with the naughty kids would be a waste of time. So class dismissed.

If anyone else wishes to discuss the topic of free will with me be sure to follow the guidelines I've set-out for Adam here and I'll be the best boy scout I know how to be keeping my gun in my holster and the cookies I'm meant to sell door to door only between my teeth. You can see how I operate though, so only to the point discussion, with sincere questions to invoke further creative inquiry otherwise I simply won't take you seriously. If not. Glad this is over with.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/9/2021 at 4:27 PM, illbeyourmirror said:

I recently watched a documentary on the late Zen master Wu Bong, and in it he says, “You didn’t choose when you’d be born, and you don’t choose when you’ll die, so what makes you think you can choose what happens in your life?”

And I read a quote today by Sadhguru that went, “Your life, your making. God does not interfere in it.”

And in the video by Leo on self-love, he says that self love doesnt mean that you’re just totally passive - that you take care of yourself in a conscious, mindful way. Which makes me think that god is absent/hands-off most of the time, and that we are in control of our lives.

Being honest here - it seems like spiritual teachers / speakers use the idea of free will willy nilly and loosely. One moment they're saying that everything is an illusion and that the body is an imagination, and the next moment saying  our brains need to take care of our bodies

My idea up until this point has wavered between thinking that there is no such thing as free will (even actions you think you’re doing out of your free will are being controlled) to thinking that god - the force that holds everything in perfect unity - can catch you and fill you with its presence, if it’s right, when you’re truly falling.

Writing to get others’ thoughts on free will, and to see if Leo has talked about the idea more in depth in one of his videos.

The topic of free will has been on my mind a lot for quite a while.

Different past spiritual experiences seem to come to widely different conclusions, but I don't ultimately know for sure if we do have or do not have free will. 
Some of these experiences seem to point towards having free will and others make it feel like there is ultimately no free will, and those experiences seem to be mostly at the top of the food chain.  If I look around with the lens that there is no free will, then everything just Is.

I think of, cosmically, "All for you."  From God, to you.  And that your life is the gift.  But you have to show up to receive it and that is your choice.  But it also directs this, if you do or do not.  And there is some greater plan.

Edited by Keyhole

Don't invest in the virtual.
Focus on yourself.

?

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@Hanna Luna if you pay close attention, you can notice that you have no more idea what you will think next than you know what I will type next. Thoughts arise. What will your next thought be? You have no idea until it arises.

But don't fret! You are lucky! Your organism is intelligent, and has intelligent thoughts. You have intelligent will. Even if you aren't you 'freely', you are you intelligently. :D

Consider, if you were me, you would be doing what I'm doing, because you would be me. You would have 'no other choice'. 

Recognize that you can't 'do nothing'. This is because you, your organism, is something that's happening, and you're not 'doing it'. Your organism is growing hair. Your orgamism is hearing sounds. Your organism is thinking thoughts. It does this automatically. It's doing it now. Are you 'doing that'? How hard are you trying to 'be you', to grow your hair, to hear sounds, to think your thoughts? The answer is 'not at all'. Being you is effortless, because you're not 'doing it'. 

 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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24 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Hanna Luna if you pay close attention, you can notice that you have no more idea what you will think next than you know what I will type next. Thoughts arise. What will your next thought be? You have no idea until it arises.

But don't fret! You are lucky! Your organism is intelligent, and has intelligent thoughts. You have intelligent will. Even if you aren't you 'freely', you are you intelligently. :D

Consider, if you were me, you would be doing what I'm doing, because you would be me. You would have 'no other choice'. 

Recognize that you can't 'do nothing'. This is because you, your organism, is something that's happening, and you're not 'doing it'. Your organism is growing hair. Your orgamism is hearing sounds. Your organism is thinking thoughts. It does this automatically. It's doing it now. Are you 'doing that'? How hard are you trying to 'be you', to grow your hair, to hear sounds, to think your thoughts? The answer is 'not at all'. Being you is effortless, because you're not 'doing it'. 

 

Notice how you notice and talk bullshit of what you can notice. If you really believe in no free will then all of your comments are just nonsense. 

Thoughts are minuscule part of your experience or huge part of it depending on how you decide to experience. 

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Posted (edited)

   What's missing from this free will vs determinism, is a serious desire to know the answer. That intention is so important to have and get clear on that without it nobody really gets far, along with a way to re-commit to finding that answer.

   Leo's way, by far, is the quickest way to receiving the answer, which most here knows of and hopefully tried. Not polished for thousands of years, but gets it done, like grilling steak.

   For whatever reason, hard accessibility, multiple barriers, too early in development, that you can't do Leo's way in near future, there are other ways as well, mainly two: the shock the system way like extremely radical spirituality unlike the norm, and the tried and true way, which is the classical spiritual tradition path, similar to Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta. These both have their pitfalls and traps, and are less guaranteed to give you the answer quicker, but that also lets you age well as you receive parts of the answer, as embodiment also. Like slow cooking lamb shank, takes time, but not so jarring that it scars you off too early.

   

Edited by Danioover9000

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26 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

If you really believe in no free will then all of your comments are just nonsense. 

Not nonsense.

Intelligent organisms behave intelligently. They use language. They weigh options. They assess risk. Masters of survival. How cool! 

Can you choose that which does not occur to you to choose? Who chooses what occurs to you? 

Recognize that there are certain thoughts you can't even think because you lack the vocabulary to think them. You think in a language you didn't choose. 

Notice that even as you are reading this, thoughts are arising in your awareness. You are thinking about how to respond perhaps. Maybe other thoughts are arising.. a sound from another room.. did you remember to put the garbage out? 

Where are these thoughts coming from? From your perspective, you have no idea. They merely arise. 

You can't think your thoughts before you think them. Thinking is happening. 

 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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