Women And Enlightenment

[Prabhaker]

20 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

We talk a lot about non-duality, but yet gender comes up.

We don't no know more than great masters like Gurdjieff , Buddha, Mahavira. Somebody can say , we talk a lot about non-duality, but yet animal species comes up.

Gurdjieff has said that a woman cannot attain except through a man – and he is right. He is right because female energy differs from male energy.
It is just as if someone says that only a woman can give birth to a child. A man cannot give birth to a child – he can give birth to a child only through a woman. The physical structure of the woman carries a womb; the physical structure of a man is without a womb – he can have a child only through a woman. And the same in reverse order happens in spiritual birth: a woman can get enlightened only through a man. Their spiritual energy differs also, just like their physical part. Why? Why is this so?
And remember, this is not a question of equality or of inequality – this is a question of difference. Women are not lower than men because they cannot attain directly; man is not lower than woman because he cannot give birth to a child directly. They are different. There is no question of equality or inequality, there is no question of evaluation. They are simply different, and this is a fact.

Love needs another; meditation can be done alone. Man can achieve through meditation – that’s why he can achieve directly. He can be alone. He is alone deep down. Loneliness comes naturally to man. For a woman, to be alone is difficult, very difficult, almost impossible. Her whole being is a deep urge to love, and for love, the other is needed. How can you love if the other is not there? You can meditate if the other is not there – there is no problem.

Upto a certain level of spiritual development , male and female energies differ, mystics know about it. After fifth or spiritual body , there is no difference. 

 

[Key Elements]

@Prabhaker

It's going off topic. Non-duality has no gender. Teachers make mistakes. No one is perfect. It's your choice to believe in whatever you want. 

The map is not the territory. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Key Elements

[JL]

Whoa whoa whoa

[Neo]

Enlightenment requires being quiet for a minute... (joke) hehe (runs for cover)

[Sevi]

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by Sevi

[LisaMRichardson]

It also depends on which country you live in. Yes, it does matter, as most women in other countries are actively discouraged from pursuing spirituality and even more so, speaking up about it. "Most" countries. How many countries hold a man back from a spiritual journey? The journey is for all and all can attain but you don't know what you don't know and a lot of women are in the unfortunate position to rely on men for knowledge. I have 2 daughters, both trying to attain enlightenment, as well as, some of my relatives that are women. You could also ask yourself how many women are you exposed to? Do you have a lot of females in your family? If you are sensitive to wanting to know about women - search them out. Who knows - take every opportunity as something to expand your awareness with. 

I'm fortunate to live in America. But, I still don't feel the need to comment on every topic. You all are doing a fine job ;-)

Edited October 11, 2016 by LisaMRichardson

[Soulbass]

Womens are advanced so that actualization topics seems boring to them^^

It's like we boys are learning to "read" in primairy school, while girls are allready writing.

I could easily imagine at prehistoric ages, womens saying "we are fine here, it's a nice place to live, there are some fruits here, life is easy, it's peacefull..." while the man says "I WANT THE MAMMOUTH" and think all day long about travelling thousands kilometers in the wind and snow, to catch the mammouth.

This animated movie describe quite good the feminine and the masculine energies :

Also I would point to this movie :

Womens are born with psychic abilities allready

Edited October 11, 2016 by Soulbass

[Emerald]

It's important to keep in mind that Leo's target audience is predominantly male. There are plenty of women interested in spirituality and enlightenment as well. It's odd to me that a couple of the people on this thread think women are so different than men, and there is this simultaneous tone of denigration and sacralization to the whole thing. Like women are these sacrificing angels far higher than any man and who abide in love and reach enlightenment in a completely different way... but are also incapable because they are not men. It makes me roll my eyes because being a woman who is a whole person, it feels silly to have such a stereotype placed over top of me. I see the human animal as primarily the same. We eat the same way. We sleep the same way. We shit the same way. And we probably get enlightened the same way. Certainly, there are general differences that can be noticed. But if we look really honestly at real men and women and not at polar sexual ideals, we find that men and women are 98% the same even if we like to focus on and exaggerate our very subtle differences.

[jjer94]

2 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

We shit the same way.

Women shit!!!???!! Mind = blown.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

It's important to keep in mind that Leo's target audience is predominantly male.

When  men and women are 98% same, how they could be targeted differently ?

There is a distinction between gender and polarity. Gender is a biological identity. Polarity is a term used in Tantra to refer to the style in which we open (open to life, open to existence, open to God). There are two different polar ways to open:

The masculine style of opening (in a man or in a woman) is when we open through silence, meditation, aloneness, asceticism, facing death and through discipline. 

The feminine style of opening (in a man or in a woman) is when we open through energy, movement, connection, love, touch, the senses, merging into life, pleasure and through surrender. 
This is NOT saying all men open only through discipline nor that all women open only through surrender. Tantra understand that we all have a masculine and a feminine aspect and that these open and develop in different ways.

It is not about an external set of societal behaviours, nor about gender or sexual identity. The masculine aspect is the part within us that is pure witness consciousness, never changing, eternal, known as "Shiva". The feminine aspect is all of the rest...life as it manifests in ever-changing unfolding energy. The body, the emotions, the mind, our life events...all is referred to as the feminine or "Shakti".

 Now many, though certainly not all, women resonate with the feminine principle. As female bodies have wombs that birth children and breasts that nourish life, they have a natural resonance with life and creation. Many women open through dance, music and feeling energy in their bodies. These same women may not open so much through fasting and isolation and silent sitting meditation.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Prabhaker said:

When  men and women are 98% same, how they could be targeted differently ?

There is a distinction between gender and polarity. Gender is a biological identity. Polarity is a term used in Tantra to refer to the style in which we open (open to life, open to existence, open to God). There are two different polar ways to open:

The masculine style of opening (in a man or in a woman) is when we open through silence, meditation, aloneness, asceticism, facing death and through discipline. 

The feminine style of opening (in a man or in a woman) is when we open through energy, movement, connection, love, touch, the senses, merging into life, pleasure and through surrender. 
This is NOT saying all men open only through discipline nor that all women open only through surrender. Tantra understand that we all have a masculine and a feminine aspect and that these open and develop in different ways.

It is not about an external set of societal behaviours, nor about gender or sexual identity. The masculine aspect is the part within us that is pure witness consciousness, never changing, eternal, known as "Shiva". The feminine aspect is all of the rest...life as it manifests in ever-changing unfolding energy. The body, the emotions, the mind, our life events...all is referred to as the feminine or "Shakti".

 Now many, though certainly not all, women resonate with the feminine principle. As female bodies have wombs that birth children and breasts that nourish life, they have a natural resonance with life and creation. Many women open through dance, music and feeling energy in their bodies. These same women may not open so much through fasting and isolation and silent sitting meditation.

That's fair enough to say. Certainly the polarities of Yin and Yang can be noticed in all living and non-living systems, including individuals. And it can be noticed that women as a group tend to be more Yin in nature, despite there being many individual exceptions.

It just sounded like you (or someone else as I didn't go back and read the posts I was reacting to) were saying that a woman's enlightenment comes from loving a man who is enlightened... like enlightenment through osmosis. Which honestly seems a bit silly to think it would work that way. Also, there was a strong paternalistic and simultaneous patronizing/sacralizing tone to the post about a woman becoming a mistress and not a master. Like it was saying something positive and uplifting about women but in a way that disenfranchises women and clips their wings through the use of identification with the feminine principle itself. This sacralization/denigration is a social pattern that I've experienced all throughout my life since childhood, and it has always irked me. It's not a wonder that so many women (and men alike) are actively repressing their feminine side. No one wants to be pinioned by it.

But one thing that I read regarding the feminine principle has stuck with me as a good piece of wisdom: Never identify directly with the Goddess. To identify with Yin itself at the expense of Yang is incredibly dangerous and crazy-making as identifying with the feminine principle is self-negating. But not self-negating in terms of self-transcendence... but moreso a repression of the ego and all aspects of the particular self. When this happens life becomes like a chess game with no king. There is no direction, no understanding, and even everyday tasks become impossible. Life becomes like a prison. Since the Yang is the particular and the changing and the Yin is the general and the unchanging, everyday life necessitates Yang to function well. So, the masculine principle is like a really efficient vehicle for survival and all the goings on of the world. The feminine principle is being and existing. So, both are needed for proper functioning. But of course these principles even ebb and flow back and forth between the physical and non-physical. The masculine is the spiritual and the feminine is the material. But the feminine is being and the masculine is the particularities of the content within being.

But all this is an understanding that springs from the vantage point of duality. Enlightenment is perception beyond the illusions and false dichotomies of duality. This includes the dichotomy of masculine/feminine, male/female, or yin/yang. If we look at our first-hand awareness of reality, there is nothing particularly masculine or feminine about what we're perceiving beyond our interpretations of and thoughts about our emotions. Our visual field is not masculine or feminine, neither are our other sensory fields. The content of our thoughts might reflect ideas of masculinity or femininity or identifications with these principles but thoughts themselves are not masculine or feminine. Now, when I had my experiences of ego transcendence (for want of a better term), this state felt unmistakably feminine. And I had always since wondered if that transcendent state was inherently feminine or if it was repressed femininity coming to the surface. But if I look at the experience I had just become more aware and allowing of the sensations of the body. So, perhaps the content of my emotions were feminine by my interpretation. It's difficult to say.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

It just sounded like you (or someone else as I didn't go back and read the posts I was reacting to) were saying that a woman's enlightenment comes from loving a man who is enlightened... like enlightenment through osmosis. Which honestly seems a bit silly to think it would work that way.

Female energy (now, don't read 'woman') has created the path of love and devotion. Even a divine lover will do – there is no need to find a physical lover. Krishna will do for Meera, there is no problem, because for Meera the other exists. He may not be there, Krishna may just be a myth, but for Meera he is, the other exists – and then Meera is happy. She can dance, she can sing, and she is nourished.
The very idea, the very notion, the very feeling, that the other exists and there is love, and a woman feels fulfilled. She is happy, alive. Only with this love will she come to a point when the lover and the beloved become one. Then meditation will happen. For female energy, meditation happens only in the deepest merger of love. Then she can be alone, then there is no problem – now she can never be alone – the beloved has become merged, now it is within. Meera or Radha or Teresa, they all achieved through a lover – Krishna, Jesus.

 One of the Jaina (Jain sect in India) tirthankaras (omniscient Teaching God) was a woman by the name of Mallibai. The Swetamber sect of Jainism calls her Mallibai while the Digamber sect of Jainism calls her Mallinath; they take her to be a man. Jainism path is such that any woman who goes through it is bound to become a man. His path is not of devotion but of knowledge, and so it is completely aggressive. His path is not one of receptivity.

In Bengal, in India, there is a small sect which believes that only Krishna is male and everybody else is female.They sleep with a statue of Krishna in their bed. If any man begins to sing and dance like Meera for years on end, sleeping with the image of Krishna on his chest and considering himself his beloved, he will remain a man in name only. His consciousness will undergo a complete transformation.  

Mystics say that after crossing the fourth plane (mental body) the meditator is neither a male nor a female. After fifth or spiritual body , there is no difference, there is nothing like male and female there. So, when you become enlightened, in that moment you are no more man or woman. In that moment you transcend all duality. 

[aurum]

I don't at all see more men than women seeking enlightenment. Strip away the layers of delusion and everyone is seeking the same thing. We may just go about it in very different ways.

[Jhonny]

On 10/8/2016 at 10:09 AM, Leo Gura said:

My audience is largely male because my approach is rather blunt.

@Leo Gura I know that your approach is rather blunt that is why Eckhart Tolle's got all the girls. LOL. 

[Leo Gura]

Those of you thinking that women can't or don't want to do enlightenment work need to read up on nuns.

Or women yogi's like this: http://www.yogananda-srf.org/lineageandleadership/Sri_Daya_Mata.aspx#.WAZmGsnz8UI

[Travis]

There is nothing special about having a penis. In fact, in a lot of ways, us guys are more deluded than women. Case in point, being deluded by a belief that women are not as equipped for enlightenment work as men are. Is this a fact? How do you know? Did you believe someone who told you this? How many enlightened women are on the planet? How many enlightened men? 

How many other beliefs are held by men concerning women that are utterly without proof? "Women cannot attain enlightenment except through a man," "female energy is different from male energy," "women are just not as interested in existential matters." Bullshit. Bullshit to all of it. 

I see a lot more delusion and stupidity perpetuated by men around the world and here at home than by women. Also, around the world and throughout history men have actively worked (and are working) to keep women subservient to men and, effectively, have relegated many of them to the status of second-class citizens with regard to spirituality. 

Remember, the whole game is about freeing ourselves from delusion. That's it. Male or female, the tools are the same.

[Prabhaker]

5 hours ago, Travis said:

How many enlightened women are on the planet? How many enlightened men? 

Nobody here said that lesser number of women become enlightened in comparison to men. 

5 hours ago, Travis said:

How do you know? Did you believe someone who told you this?

How do you know that humans can become so called 'enlightened' ? Can you even quote a scientific study ? Who told you this ?

5 hours ago, Travis said:

female energy is different from male energy

Yin Yang is perhaps the most known and documented concept used within Taoism. It is one of the dominant concepts shared by different schools throughout the history of Chinese philosophy.

Indian traditions call it Shiva and a Shakti. 

I have explained it earlier that there is a distinction between gender and polarity. Many, though certainly not all, women resonate with the feminine principle. Many women initiate through dance, music , love, devotion, prayer. These same women may not open so much through fasting and isolation and silent sitting meditation. Do you want to force 'path of meditation' on all of them ?

 

[Travis]

3 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

Nobody here said that lesser number of women become enlightened in comparison to men. 

How do you know that humans can become so called 'enlightened' ? Can you even quote a scientific study ? Who told you this ?

Yin Yang is perhaps the most known and documented concept used within Taoism. It is one of the dominant concepts shared by different schools throughout the history of Chinese philosophy.

Indian traditions call it Shiva and a Shakti. 

I have explained it earlier that there is a distinction between gender and polarity. Many, though certainly not all, women resonate with the feminine principle. Many women initiate through dance, music , love, devotion, prayer. These same women may not open so much through fasting and isolation and silent sitting meditation. Do you want to force 'path of meditation' on all of them ?

 

Who came up with all of these ideas and concepts about spirituality thousands of years ago? Men. 

History has much to show us regarding what happens when men run the show. Usually women get shit on in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

[mandyjw]

I like Leo's blunt approach but I also love Eckhart Tolle's. I can't imagine having had to do without either along the way. As a mom of young kids, the trips and the hard core meditation work aren't for me at this point in my life. Going through labor and having to figure out how to calmly deal with my autistic 3 year old's daily temper tantrums are way more bad ass than all the hardcore shit you men can come up with.  

[Emerald]

16 hours ago, Travis said:

Who came up with all of these ideas and concepts about spirituality thousands of years ago? Men. 

History has much to show us regarding what happens when men run the show. Usually women get shit on in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

Although there are certainly some regressive things relative to spirituality in the past and there has been a lot of devaluing and disenfranchisement of women, there is truth in the idea of the masculine and feminine principle, yang and yin respectively. And it truly isn't just men making it up... even though people often use it socially to disenfranchise women. These polar energies can be found in every living and non-living system and supersede but imbue human gender. Everyone has a unique signature inborn and though there is a strong correlation to gender, we can see that everyone is different as nature is never black and white.

When I had my awakening experiences, and zoomed out from the particular self that I thought myself to be more things were allowed into my experience because I no longer had a sense of self to protect. So, I was okay with accepting all parts of myself and no fear of inferiority, and the feeling that came over me was a thick pervasive feeling that I immediately recognized as femininity. Given that I was raised in a place that valued the masculine over the feminine, I had been repressing and denying my femininity for years and instead allowing only my masculine side to flourish. I thought of it as an impediment and weakness to be feminine as I saw it as something of a limitation. But this was an overwhelmingly empowering feeling as all social concepts of femininity as weakness fell away, and I was really myself then. Prior to this, I always thought masculinity and femininity were just social constructs but they're much deeper than that. So, in my experience, masculinity and femininity are real but are often socially used to keep women down. So, I always sense this othering that happens in these types of conversations and I really hate it. But to ignore the idea altogether isn't helpful either, even though it can be painful given the social baggage that often comes along with it.