What do you think of hedonism?

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Are you saying Unconditional happiness love and pink unicorns is woo woo stuff?

There's no such a thing as an unconditional experience. All experiences are conditional by definition, and it's delusional to think otherwise. Because without conditions, no experience would even be possible. Any experience can only take place on the foundation of a certain set of conditions. And if you change these conditions, your experience will change with them.

If you want to define happiness according to this perspective, it's the perfect alignment with whatever conditions are currently occupying experience in the present moment. But since reality is constantly shifting and changing, it is clear that happiness won't last forever and you will need to flow with change in order to be happy.

[calibrate]

I believe you can make an argument against it along the lines that it creates a ripple effect across society which leads to more suffering. Look at the 2008 GFC and why it happened, look at the typical wealthy businessman who decides to deforest an area to eventually line his pockets more, look at a group of managers who decide to gut employees from a company to reduce overhead and improve profits for investors. More selfishness creates more suffering in some way.

[calibrate]

But hell the hedonist cant see that at all, all the hedonist cares about is his OWN pleasure. Stuck on that side of the pendulum

[Kuba Powiertowski]

I think that from our, very low perspective pleasure is an extremely difficult word to define, so we'd better be very careful with that:)

[Pistachio2]

@Tim R Hey how could one have this insight? I feel like I understand what you are saying theoretically but I still haven't been able to integrate it.

[Pistachio2]

On 2/7/2021 at 5:35 AM, Tim R said:

Well I guess to answer that question, we first have to define happiness. 

The way I see it, there's happiness and there's satisfaction. 

Satisfaction is conditional: "if I had a million dollars, if I had had this car, if I had a hot girl-/boyfriend, if I had a bigger house", etc. 

Happiness on the other hand is unconditional: "no matter what, I'm happy."

 

We confuse happiness with satisfaction/hedonism. We think that in order to be happy, certain things must happen. And if these things don't happen, we won't be happy. We've been chasing satisfaction all our lives long, not realizing that it is a complete fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? 

Because to be happy is to be satisfied with what is - satisfaction is something very similar, the only difference: specific things must be. 

We all know what it's like to be satisfied. When we get what we want, we say "I'm happy" and in a sense that's true! Because in that moment we are satisfied with what is, the only difference to happiness is that we are clinging to this specific condition! And if this specific condition seizes to be, we aren't satisfied ("conditionally happy") anymore. 

And happiness drops this conditionality. Happiness drops expectation. Happiness drops the desire for specific conditions; specific events/things/people/feelings/experiences/etc. 

Here's the funny thing: we think that if we drop all expectations and desires, we won't be happy and we won't be unhappy either. We think it will simply be sort of neutral because after all, why should there be any happiness? Doesn't it make much more sense that it will simply be neutral? 

Haha... But what we don't see is this:

 

Happiness is this neutral condition

 

Happiness is the baseline of existence. 

It can't be anything else. Because "no-desire-for-anything-specific-other-than-this" and "that-which-is-now" are the baseline of existence. 

This is just so incredibly obvious. Unconditional happiness is the nature of existence. It's exactly the same way for love, these words "love" and "happiness" are describing the same, only seen from a slightly different point of view. 

So happiness isn't something that comes from anywhere, it is always the case, only it's clouded by desire and expectations for specific conditions other than the current moment. The only way to happiness is to realize what is.

And what is, is always the case, so happiness doesn't come from anywhere. It's not something you get from somewhere else, it's something you find. Don't make the mistake to think that you'll find it in any specific place, you see? Because then you're back again at satisfaction. 

To be happy is simply to be. And you already are, only you think you're not.

 

Here's the trick: the moment you start to realize this, you'll say "oh okay then, I'll drop my desires and expectations so I can realize the unconditional happiness within."

Well. But you're still caught in conditions then. Because you say "if I could drop desire and expectation, I'd be happy."

Same old rat race. 

"What can we do about that?" Why do you wanna do something about that? You see? Your desire to change the current circumstances shows that you still haven't understood! 

No road leads to happiness. Happiness is, and the only way to be happy is to be happy. No method, no way, nothing.

You can't go to where you already are

This insight. Also, I saw you and OP discussing which made me very confused. This must be a difficult thing to fully understand 

[Someone here]

17 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

There's no such a thing as an unconditional experience. All experiences are conditional by definition, and it's delusional to think otherwise. Because without conditions, no experience would even be possible. Any experience can only take place on the foundation of a certain set of conditions. And if you change these conditions, your experience will change with them.

If you want to define happiness according to this perspective, it's the perfect alignment with whatever conditions are currently occupying experience in the present moment. But since reality is constantly shifting and changing, it is clear that happiness won't last forever and you will need to flow with change in order to be happy.

I agree with that.  

[Dunnel]

@Someone hereI havent read all the replies but all I can say that if you cant be happy right now like the rest of us, getting into a meditation habbit would be a good idea. It is technicnally possible to just be happy right now, the problem is that your ego is not gonna let you do that. Because to fully accept that you can be at peace right now would be super painful to your ego. This is what happened to me. All activities had become meaningless to me once I fully realized the flaw in hedonism. This is why I pursue awakening (no more suffering/total acceptence). Ironic considering that i dont accept the fact that im not accepting reality. But you just have to accept that your ego wont let that attachment go for now. So either you countinue your hedonistic lifestyle, this neither good or bad in the absolute sense, or you pursue unconditonal happiness. Just a preference of living. There is no right or wrong way of living. I hope you just get what im saying. You may logically understand it but I dont think you feel it. You dont seem to be in exstential terror. Thats what im experiencing right now. Because I had to realize that my entire life was a lie. 

[Jacob Morres]

by itself hedonism as a strategy is a lie. the mind deceives you into thinking sex, food, money, achievement will make you happy. happiness does not come from that alone. 

great question which leads me to a corollary question, what is happiness really?

Edited March 1, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Zigzag Idiot]

On 2/27/2021 at 9:41 AM, Gesundheit said:

There's no such a thing as an unconditional experience

 
What about non=conceptual awareness aka objectless awareness? The specific state mentioned in connection with Zazen practice and Centering Prayer Meditation. Unconditional experience sounds possibly similar. ?‍♂️ After pondering a bit I thought the notion had a little merit anyway.
 

Don’t want to come off as adversarial but by all means reply if your moved to. I’m just asking rhetorically as a type six ‘devil’s advocate’ and not an argumentative know-it-all looking for a pissing contest. 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

11 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

by itself hedonism as a strategy is a lie. the mind deceives you into thinking sex, food, money, achievement will make you happy. happiness does not come from that alone. 

No Sir, but at times, they seem to be major contributors.

[Gesundheit]

@Zigzag Idiot Let me correct what I said there.

There's no such thing as an unconditional human experience. Human = Conditions.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Gesundheit

[ilja]

there can be no pleasure without pain

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, ilja said:

there can be no pleasure without pain

Hedonism debunked 

[Zigzag Idiot]

20 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

@Zigzag Idiot Let me correct what I said there.

There's no such thing as an unconditional human experience. Human = Conditions.

Unconditional human experience still sounds similar to non conceptual awareness or objectless awareness. These could also be labeled as transpersonal states of consciousness. People who have attained the station of the Pearl beyond price could still be in a personal state of awareness as being realized of the nature of being. Maybe?
My imaginative conjectures may be getting shaky though,,,, 

Just having fun,,,,

[Gesundheit]

31 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Unconditional human experience still sounds similar to non conceptual awareness or objectless awareness. These could also be labeled as transpersonal states of consciousness.

They may be transpersonal states of consciousness, but they're definitely not unconditional.

It seems you are pointing to the absolute, but I wouldn't try to conceptualize it as conditional or unconditional. It just is.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Gesundheit

[ilja]

@calibrate it will catch up with him eventually

[Someone here]

@Zigzag Idiot what are you talking about? 

[Someone here]

On 3/1/2021 at 2:10 AM, Dunnel said:

@Someone hereI havent read all the replies but all I can say that if you cant be happy right now like the rest of us, getting into a meditation habbit would be a good idea. It is technicnally possible to just be happy right now, the problem is that your ego is not gonna let you do that. Because to fully accept that you can be at peace right now would be super painful to your ego. This is what happened to me. All activities had become meaningless to me once I fully realized the flaw in hedonism. This is why I pursue awakening (no more suffering/total acceptence). Ironic considering that i dont accept the fact that im not accepting reality. But you just have to accept that your ego wont let that attachment go for now. So either you countinue your hedonistic lifestyle, this neither good or bad in the absolute sense, or you pursue unconditonal happiness. Just a preference of living. There is no right or wrong way of living. I hope you just get what im saying. You may logically understand it but I dont think you feel it. You dont seem to be in exstential terror. Thats what im experiencing right now. Because I had to realize that my entire life was a lie. 

Hedonism is a way of life.. A lot of people In this Era adopt it. characterised by openness to pleasurable experience. There are many qualms about hedonism. It is rejected on moral grounds and said to be detrimental to long-term happiness... As you can see some of the replies here pointing that out. That by engaging in short term pleasure.. That's actually antithetical to long term happiness. Several mechanisms for this 'paradox of hedonism' have been suggested and telling examples of pleasure seekers ending up in despair have been given. But is that the rule? If so.. how much pleasure is too much? . The relation between hedonism and happiness is really tricky.... At the individual level it is similarly linked with hedonistic attitudes and also correlated with hedonistic behaviours such as frequent sex and use of stimulants. In most cases the pattern is linearly positive. The relation between happiness and consumption of stimulants follows an inverted U-curve... As you develop tolerance.. Now you need to do more extreme kinds of pleasures to get similar buzz. 

 

@Nahm curios about your take on the subject.  You sound to me like a hedonist sometimes lol.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Someone here

[Nahm]

@Someone here

I’d add some tweaks.

There’s no ‘ego’ which anything could be said to be painful for. The same one feeling the suffering, is the same one creating the suffering. 

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 curios about your take on the subject.  You sound to me like a hedonist sometimes llol.

This brings to mind one’s connotation of hedonism. 

Definition of hedonism

1: the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life

2: a way of life based on or suggesting the principles of hedonism

Only one creating suffering and ignoring how & that they are, would project identity, such that someone else who is happy, is a “hedonist”. 

Hedonism often has the connotation of seeking physical worldly / bodily pleasures. That would be seeking good feeling, as a product of experience, what ever that experience might be...substances, food, money, sex, other bodily / physical stimulation, etc. 

What I’m suggesting is not the common connotation of hedonism, and not quite exactly the definition either. 

Feeling is nondual. You can not “take feeling off” like a pair of shoes, because feeling is not some ‘thing’ you have. It is that which is infinite, formless, without beginning or end, which is appearing as ‘you’...by appearing as the sphere of the world, and of the lens by which to experience the world. 

I’m not saying ‘do what feels good & brings you physical bodily pleasure’. 

I’m saying you have guidance in regard to thought...and the guidance is feeling. 

The way one is creating the suffering...is feeling the guidance of feeling...yet being unwilling to let the thought go...the thought which is in discord...with feeling. To say the suffering is “because of ego”, or because of anything else...is to say “the way I feel is because of something other than what I’m thinking right now”. 

I’m not appealing to wisdom, or something to be learned, or subscribing to any ‘ism’s’. I’m suggesting common sense, which is the love that each of us is...and that we can listen to the common sense.