Husseinisdoingfine

Did Ken Wilber distort Spiral Dynamics?

40 posts in this topic

This is from Don Beck's Facebook page:

Quote

“I reject all of this and is yet another example of Wilber attempting to exploit the Graves model and Spiral Dynamics. He lacks, entirely, the 7th Code, and has no idea how/when/where each of the Codes have emerged. I will gladly challenge him to a public debate but he still hides out in his loft in Denver. The whole idea of “tiers” is uniquely language from our work which he “steals” in order to market his. The many lacks any ethical basis when he does so. He is nothing beyond RED-ORANGE. If he wants to develop his own system then he should do so without exploiting my life time of work which he continues to do. 

Also from Don Beck:

Quote

“Our 7th and now emerging 8th Code are functional, resolve real world problems, and emerge out of the Life Conditions; not out of some mystical realm from Eastern viewpoints which, belong to those cultures, not to Western societies. I still like the man but have no respect for him. I have seen too much. The new Star Wars movie — “The Force Awakens! "as ‘art mirrors reality.” The 8th Code is beginning to take shape. It will NOT be the 6th code on steroids as many in the “Integral World believe.” the Progressive movement add to the emergence of civilization, and there are still places where it is valuable, it is no longer the relevant system for the whole….that is in the 7th Code of Integral Flow that deals with billions of people passing through premodern, modern, and post modern views. This is the prime reason we are having so much trouble with militant Islamic structures. I work in the Middle East. It is unfortunate that Ken’s illness has kept him out of the real world.”

What do you guys think? Did Ken Wilbur distort SDi (Spiral Dynamics integral)?

My view is that I'm going to have to agree with Don Beck here. Don Beck along with Chris Cowen and Claire Graves (the real O.G.) have been working on SDi for so long, they've dedicated their lives towards the development of this model, and Ken Wilbur without doing any research creates his ''integral organization matrix'' (Google it pls). Don Beck is a serious researcher who has traveled the world to develop SDi and is using his life's work of research to fix issues in the Middle East, and Ken Wilbur is a philosopher in Denver who hasn't even left his home state to conduct research to develop his model.

Also @Leo Gura, as well as everyone else reading this, what do you think of Beck describing Wilber as RED-ORANGE. As well as the accusations that ''he lacks entirely the 7th code (YELLOW)'', or that what Wilber is proposing, is the ''6th code (GREEN) on steroids''

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Edited by Husseinisdoingfine

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Following. Still haven't even really taken a bite out of wilbers work. I thought I remembered him sourcing Don Beck in his books, even refering to it and many others who have created models like this. Seems kind of like ego to me. 

interesting point.

Edited by Thought Art

It's just turtles all the way down.

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This has be answered. Use the search.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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If someone finds the thread let me know

Edited by Thought Art

It's just turtles all the way down.

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33 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

will gladly challenge him to a public debate

33 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

he should do so without exploiting my life time of work which he continues to do. 

This is pure orange right here. And he's feeling threatened that someone took his model and made it way better and more detailed. 

33 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

“Our 7th and now emerging 8th Code are functional, resolve real world problems, and emerge out of the Life Conditions; not out of some mystical realm from Eastern viewpoints which, belong to those cultures, not to Western societies.

And this is pure blue/orange. Ken Wilber is so far beyond his understanding that he will never come to agree with his views since he's not even gone beyond orange. Ken is actually one of the most yellow people I'd be able to name and he brings that systems thinking up to turquoise. 

If you've not read Wilber's work, you'll instantly see how much deeper it goes, way beyond social evolution. 

Edit: I've actually not researched Don Beck enough to be able to say what stage he's at. I'm sure has a lot of yellow qualities to him. 

 

Edited by fridjonk

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@Husseinisdoingfine Can you link to Don Beck's Facebook page where the quotes are from? Did Don Beck himself write this, or followers on his FB page? I stopped following another Spiral Dynamics page because it turned into an anti-Wilber fest. Sad that people who agree 98% with each other spend so much time bickering over the 2%. 

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@tuckerwphotography A case of different spiral levels?

Or a mac and a window?

Leo gave his opinion in the thread Beck = Trump supporter 

 

So counter intuitive that the guy who made spiral dynamics isn't at the top of his model. Interesting. How did he gain these insights? Seems impossible. 

Edited by Thought Art

It's just turtles all the way down.

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It sounds like Don Beck is just salty Ken Wilber took his model and improved it. Ken is the epitome of Tier 2 thinking, so for Don Beck to say he's nothing beyond Orange is absolutely outrageous.

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9 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@tuckerwphotography A case of different spiral levels?

Or a mac and a window?

Leo gave his opinion in the thread Beck = Trump supporter 

 

So counter intuitive that the guy who made spiral dynamics isn't at the top of his model. Interesting. How did he gain these insights? Seems impossible. 

If Don Beck is a Trump supporter then I am absolutely lost as to how he created the SD model lol.

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I personally think SD and the Ken Wilbur version of it are both a little spacey into Turquoise territory.  I found the 9 stages of ego development by Cook-Greuter to be a somewhat more practical guide to that territory.

All of these models are somewhat limited in their teachability by the upper tiers, unfortunately, because they shift from "3rd person objective" to "1st person subjective," inevitably requiring subjective mystical experience / personal deconstruction to validate upper tier claims.  For anyone at lower tiers, being presented with such a model is well outside their realm of consideration for all of the reasons Leo is constantly ranting about (lack of open-mindedness, cultural/scientific bias, materialism, self-bias/deception, projection, epistemology errors, thinking 3rd person objective is even a real thing, ETC ETC).

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8 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

He is nothing beyond RED-ORANGE.

Would've never believed such a claim from a guy like Don Beck. Even if WIlber did exploit the model, that accusation is kinda radical from a mouth of a yellow person.

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I'll chalk up that you sided with Beck to the fact that you know so little about Wilber to constantly misspell his name :P


To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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Wilber has never been interested in any one model. He studies and integrates dozens of models. So the idea that Wilber is somehow hurting Spiral Dynamics is like saying that a philosopher is hurting Christianity by studying other religions. If you are a fundamentalist Christian (Don Beck in this case with SD) then to you it will seem wrong and even evil that people study other religions. But to someone at Tier 2, this criticism is laughable.

"The better the model, the bigger the problem."

The simple fact that Beck devoted his whole life to one model, is his problem.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wilber has never been interested in any one model. He studies and integrates dozens of models. So the idea that Wilber is somehow hurting Spiral Dynamics is like saying that a philosopher is hurting Christianity by studying other religions. If you are a fundamentalist Christian (Don Beck in this case with SD) then to you it will seem wrong and even evil that people study other religions. But to someone at Tier 2, this criticism is laughable.

"The better the model, the bigger the problem."

The simple fact that Beck devoted his whole life to one model, is his problem.

thank you.

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11 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@Snader He isn't yellow. More like blue orange.

Never did research on him but if that's the case then it explains a lot.

Didn't think that would be possible cause he's modeling above his level of development But yeah, he's not even behind the original MEMEs so it was stupid of me to assume him being more developed.

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Notice this, if you were a fundamentalist Christian and you heard someone else from another worldview talking about God, you would assume they stole it from you and corrupted it to boot. And this would make you righteously pissed off.

That's what paradigm lock does. Everything is interpreted through the lens of that rigid paradigm, creating a lot of distortion and emotional frustration.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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