neutralempty

Navalny Unmasks Putin

193 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Naviy said:

 

I don't think all this will have a very significant political impact though.  

I am not able to pass 400 meter with one step either.

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15 minutes ago, Naviy said:

I don't think all this will have a very significant political impact though.  

Less analyzing, more protesting!

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1 hour ago, GreenDragon said:

Regarding Navalny, he said in an interview that the main things he wants to do with the country are: fight corruption, change the government system to a parliamentary republic, create independent courts with educated judges, simplify the conduct of business. He also has said that he basically wants to turn Russia into Canada.

Sounds good. I was just wandering about the timing or protests. I would rather expect the protests after change of constitution abolishing democracy. Or in case of Navalny after he was poisoned by a russian government. Goverment poisoning the citizens are no government for me but a shitty gang. But palace... Well Putin is known to be the richest person in the world. He might have a palace o two... What is new or strange about it? Is it such a revealation for russians that their leader is very rich and very corrupt? But well maybe it was the last drop...

Edited by Hulia

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9 minutes ago, Hulia said:

But well maybe it was the last drop...

Well, yeah, and all these events stacked on top of each other: Navalny's poisoning and its investigation (and Navalny calling his own poisoner is really something!), Navalny's unlawful arrest and the movie. Regarding the movie: it's not that the fact of Putin stealing 100 billion rubles caused such a reaction. It's how he spent it. It's all about the image. The image of Putin that many people had in their mind - a kind of classical, strong Russian tsar, a patriot and honest proponent of traditional values, which elicited a kind of respect. Now that very image is destroyed and Putin is seen by the people like a shallow mafia boss: personal casino, a hookah room with a pole for elite strippers, an underground hockey field, multiple "wives" etc. People react much more strongly to such things than to abstract stuff like "abolishing democracy".

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29 minutes ago, GreenDragon said:

The image of Putin that many people had in their mind - a kind of classical, strong Russian tsar, a patriot and honest proponent of traditional values, which elicited a kind of respect. Now that very image is destroyed and Putin is seen by the people like a shallow mafia boss: personal casino, a hookah room with a pole for elite strippers, an underground hockey field, multiple "wives" etc. People react much more strongly to such things than to abstract stuff like "abolishing democracy".

ok, I see. But this is what I am afraid of  - an old tsar with a palace replaced by a new tsar without palace. I think as long as people are craving for a tsar (even an honest one), the protests make no sense. Sorry. 

The new putin might be even worse than the old one. Take Stalin. He didn´t have any palaces.

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12 minutes ago, Hulia said:

ok, I see. But this is what I am afraid of  - an old tsar with a palace replaced by a new tsar without palace. I think as long as people are craving for a tsar (even an honest one), the protests make no sense. Sorry. 

The new putin might be even worse than the old one. Take Stalin. He didn´t have any palaces.

That's just the fear of change talking out of you.

There is no 100% guarantee for anything you do to be a success.

Stalin lived in a different time. There is no way he would be the same today.

And I find it unlikely putin will be replaced by someone worse.

Edited by neutralempty

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@Hulia Again, the culture is different. It's not that "If someone else rather than Stalin came to power everything would be alright". No. Stalin is a product of his time. Even if someone like Stalin comes to power he will be kicked out soon enough. Just like Putin. I think that people are not just disappointed with Putin, they are also disappointed with this kind of "tsarism" in general, and young people especially (of course).

I've watched the stream on Rain TV. I think there's a civil war coming. And I'm kinda glad, because it must happen sooner or later, and sooner is better.

EDIT: About "respect for the tsar". I specifically inserted "a kind of" there to indicate that it's not only stage Blue worship, but also stage Orange/Green's "Yeah, it sucks, but whatever, it's really not that bad". I thought that way too. Now that is no more.

Edited by GreenDragon

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@neutralempty @GreenDragon Maybe you are both right. I don´t know what are the current vibes in Russia. Though I rather don´t beleive that Putin will be kicked out soon. Look at Belarus. The protests are more massive than in Russia. And Lukashenko has less military and policemen at his disposal than Putin. So what? Nothing. People protest and protest and nothing happens.

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@Hulia Yeah, exactly, the vibes are different. Subtle, but important. I don't think people in Russia are going to tolerate what Putin is going to do in the same way as how people in Belarus are peacefully tolerating what Lukashenko is doing. That's why up until now Putin has been playing games, still trying to keep up the pretense of a democratic leader. But that's just what I feel.

In the end it's going to be a war, of course.

Edited by GreenDragon

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Also, having a very popular charismatic leader (Navalny) I think is extremely important. Many Russian people don't support Putin, but would still vote for him because they don't see an alternative, and now it's there. Someone who is ready to be imprisoned for a long time or even tortured and killed (God forbid) for the cause.

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@Hulia yeah, it is an uncertain struggle, but what else is there left to do? Suffering comes in both ways.

I guess you can wait until they change on their own very slowly over generations.

Edited by neutralempty

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1 hour ago, GreenDragon said:

 

In the end it's going to be a war, of course.

 

The thought of a civil war in a nuclear power such as Russia is terrifying. And best believe, NATO and China would be involved in some fashion.

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2 minutes ago, abundance said:

 

And best believe, NATO and China would be involved in some fashion.

I don't think so. It'll probably be quick and small-scale.

 

4 minutes ago, abundance said:

The thought of a civil war in a nuclear power such as Russia is terrifying.

Think the bunker grandpa is going to bomb his country? I wouldn't expect that even from him.

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Make Russia like Canada?

Ha! :D

The key difference between Russia and Canada is that in Canada, government doesn't poison you for wanting to be like Canada ;)


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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2 hours ago, GreenDragon said:

In the end it's going to be a war, of course.

According to recent pole 53% of Russians want to leave their country. Without having a sense of patriotism, how are they gonna be able to withstand in the face of adversity when the going gets tough (as it will if they try and start up something real).

 

What are your thoughts on the fact that Navalny family themselves sent their child to study abroad (Stanford University)?

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It's gonna be a long painful transition from Red/Blue to Orange before Green can flourish there.

Russia lacks widespread accessible Orange for average people. They need to ramp up their economy into tech and other stuff like that. Russia could potentially be very good at tech type work.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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5 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

What are your thoughts on the fact that Navalny family themselves sent their child to study abroad (Stanford University)?

My thoughts are that they are sending their children (their daughter, more specifically) to the best university they can. Unfortunately, Russia doesn't posess the best universities in the world as of yet.

5 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

According to recent pole 53% of Russians want to leave their country.

I, too, wanted to leave. But now I get that don't have any moral right to leave all these millions behind. Besides, 47% is still a lot, and people are gonna get really angry after what happened today.

Of course it would be better if change happened peacefully, through political means (there are going to be Duma elections in 2021). But it's clear now that the government is not going to play this way.

EDIT: @Leo Gura My thoughts exactly.

Edited by GreenDragon

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16 minutes ago, GreenDragon said:

My thoughts are that they are sending their children (their daughter, more specifically) to the best university they can. Unfortunately, Russia doesn't posess the best universities in the world as of yet.

I, too, wanted to leave. But now I get that don't have any moral right to leave all these millions behind. Besides, 47% is still a lot, and people are gonna get really angry after what happened today.

Of course it would be better if change happened peacefully, through political means (there are going to be Duma elections in 2021). But it's clear now that the government is not going to play this way.

 

With hopes that after graduation they come back to contribute to the prosperity and the improvement of their homeland? They must have a moral right to do so, don’t they...?

 

Who do you think the other 47% are? The older generation whose love for Putin will die with themselves, and the passive dull mediocrity who are either too content or too scared to ever rock the boat that they’re sitting in.

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