Level of consciousness of Antifa and BLM?

[Scholar]

@Nyseto

This is the crux of the matter my brother, contemplate these words deeply:

Quote

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

 

My brother, what you fail to see is this. What you say is not what is revealing to me the state of your heart. It is what you are not saying that is revealing it. It is not merely what you are focusing on, but that to which you are blind to. And you are blind because of fear. I do not judge you for this, but this is the truth. I can see it so obviously in you because I have seen and continue to see it in myself.

Any person of higher consciousness on this forum could come here and tell you the same.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Scholar

[Consept]

15 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Here's the thing though. Not using this as distraction as some may like to assume. But at the end of the day, we are equally different. We will never have perfect equality and I feel like some people are just looking too much at a utopia instead of reality. There's a point where we can only be so equal. The best way to equality is through consciousness. As long as people aren't conscious enough, there will be devils thinking they're better than others and devils always thinking someone's out to get them.

There should be some type of room to compete. That isn't a low conscious cloak for fueling old, destructive ways. I'm looking at it from a higher consciousness where competing is a part of life, it's a dance. It should be fun, an expression of love. Demonizing inequality is just as bad as demonizing equality. 

I think equal opportunity and programs providing equal opportunity for the unfortunate is pretty good. 

Again you still havent provided any solutions for the issue youve raised. I also agree consciousness is important to raise, but if people are in poverty and survival mode that is almost impossible to do so therefore you would want to raise people out of poverty or help them to raise themselves out and then you can work on raising consciousness. 

But i take from what you wrote that there shouldnt be an effort to move to a more equal society because we arent born equal and we should have to compete. Ill go with you on this for a second, lets say you and me are competing in terms of who can make a million the fastest, if youre born into a poor family who cannot afford private education, are scraping by a living, dont teach you anything about starting a business or a trade etc and im born with every luxury imaginable, i go to a private fee paying school, my dad has connections that get me a great job, i get money to buy my own house and start my own business. Its not really a fair competition then is it? If you believe in competition surely you would believe in fair competition, at the very least everyone getting the same education, medical care or justice right? These are the things people want when they talk about equality, if you want a meritocracy then follow it all the way through and youll inevitably end up with a more socialist society 

 

[Consept]

29 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This is the distinction from criticizing from above or criticizing from below. Jordan Peterson does this a lot. He says he is pro-environment, lgbtq or gender equality and then 99% of his view becomes criticizing the environmental movement, lgbtq or women in in a way that pulls down into the status quo rather than pulling up to higher consciousness.

If some was at a high conscious level and wanted to progress toward greater equality, they would focus the vast amount of their attention toward solutions and moving toward greater equality, since they are sick of living with inequality and injustice. They may criticize components of the movement, yet there would be a very different orientation. For example, if our #1 goal was to decrease injustices and increase equality in our city and we are at a city hall meeting to design best strategy, we wouldn’t sit there all day cherry picking and complaining about aspects of Blm. In terms of our goal toward greater equality, we may bring up the issue of looting incidents in the context of how this impacts our strategy toward greater equality. Yet the vast amount of attention would be spent on addressing problems of injustice and solutions toward equality. And everyone with this goal would jump on the opportunity to discuss it. 

Exactly, this is what i see constantly from people like Shapiro and Peterson, theyre very good at the criticisms but they offer no alternative solution. I have many criticisms and suggestions for blm but my aim would be to improve the movement from my perspective, not question whether or not it should exist

[Nyseto]

1 minute ago, Consept said:

Again you still havent provided any solutions for the issue youve raised. I also agree consciousness is important to raise, but if people are in poverty and survival mode that is almost impossible to do so therefore you would want to raise people out of poverty or help them to raise themselves out and then you can work on raising consciousness. 

But i take from what you wrote that there shouldnt be an effort to move to a more equal society because we arent born equal and we should have to compete. Ill go with you on this for a second, lets say you and me are competing in terms of who can make a million the fastest, if youre born into a poor family who cannot afford private education, are scraping by a living, dont teach you anything about starting a business or a trade etc and im born with every luxury imaginable, i go to a private fee paying school, my dad has connections that get me a great job, i get money to buy my own house and start my own business. Its not really a fair competition then is it? If you believe in competition surely you would believe in fair competition, at the very least everyone getting the same education, medical care or justice right? These are the things people want when they talk about equality, if you want a meritocracy then follow it all the way through and youll inevitably end up with a more socialist society 

 

I did, I replied back to you asking me again what I would do about inequalities. Scroll up a bit, it got lost.

I believe in a fair competition hands down. But there will always be someone out there who won't see it as such. Devils aren't just those out to screw others over, but also those who constantly feel like someone's out to get them.

[Nyseto]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

@Nyseto

This is the crux of the matter my brother, contemplate these words deeply:

 

You jumped to conclusions too fast and started demonizing me right away. There are always two sides to one situation. If someone is acting like an idiot and gets hurt, I feel compassion for him but I also feel he was an idiot at the same time. You are only taking one part of life and rejecting the other, creating a duality in yourself. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nyseto

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

 

I believe in a fair competition hands down. But there will always be someone out there who won't see it as such. Devils aren't just those out to screw others over, but also those who constantly feel like someone's out to get them.

Then why on earth are you focused to perpetuate unfair competitive systems and the power devils that pull those levers?  Why undercut movements and policies that increase playing fields. Giving access to universal education and medical care would massively empower people and equalize playing fields. Why not be focused on that, rather than side issue obscurities? 

[Consept]

1 minute ago, Nyseto said:

I did, I replied back to you asking me again what I would do about inequalities. Scroll up a bit, it got lost.

I believe in a fair competition hands down. But there will always be someone out there who won't see it as such. Devils aren't just those out to screw others over, but also those who constantly feel like someone's out to get them.

OK sorry if i missed it, so your solution is things like what Kapernick did, even though he was still demonised by the right and got sacked from his job. The other thing was to celebrate successful black people, this is done but probably not enough, theres a history of suppressing black inventors for example, these things arent taught in schools, mainly youre only taught about slavery in the context of black history. This can have not only a psychological effect on black students but not expose them to the knowledge of how successful some black people have been, which means they dont think they can achieve these things themselves. Even so black people do celebrate other successful black people its just not talked about in the mainstream as much. 

So youre suggesting things that have already been done, these are already part of the movement yet high levels of inequality, or if you like an unfair playing field, still exist, so question is should people just leave it at that and accept the unfairness or should they do something else and if so what should they do in addition to what theyre already doing, which you said were good things 

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

You jumped to conclusions too fast and started demonizing me right away. There are always two sides to one situation. If someone is acting like an idiot and gets hurt, I feel compassion for him but I also feel he was an idiot at the same time. You are only taking one part of life and rejecting the other, creating a duality in yourself. 

Consider for a moment that I am right about what I am saying. Come back when you feel open hearted, and re-read this conversation with a fresh mind. This can't hurt you, treat it like an experiment. The worst that can happen is that you will learn something valuable.

 

This is all.

[Nyseto]

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Then why on earth are you focused to perpetuate unfair competitive systems and the power devils that pull those levers?  Why undercut movements and policies that increase playing fields. Giving access to universal education and medical for all would massively empower people and equalize playing fields. Why not be focused on that, rather than side issue obscurities? 

I want to know what you think of this one issue. Venezuela used to be capitalist and ever since it started going socialist, they've gone downhill. Why?

[Nyseto]

14 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Consider for a moment that I am right about what I am saying. Come back when you feel open hearted, and re-read this conversation with a fresh mind. This can't hurt you, treat it like an experiment. The worst that can happen is that you will learn something valuable.

 

This is all.

I've always felt open hearted. Being open hearted takes many forms. You assumed I have no compassion because I simply said someone brought a situation upon themselves. That's a pretty big jump to a conclusion like that. Do you always write off people that quickly? 

Instead of being more considerate you jumped the gun straight away saying I'm insensitive, condemning me, etc. Then you want to turn around and tell me you're open hearted and I'm coming from fear? You went as far as saying to leave the thread which I started and I responded back to you kindly. I don't know if you just wanted to provoke me or troll me somehow to feel a little bit better but there was never was any lack of compassion here brother. I feel compassion for anyone who suffers but at the same time many people suffer due to their own ignorance so sometimes the things they do end up being hilarious. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nyseto

[Scholar]

Just now, Nyseto said:

I've always felt open hearted. Being open hearted takes many forms. You assumed I have no compassion because I simply said someone brought a situation upon themselves. That's a pretty big jump to a conclusion like that. Do you always write off people that quickly? 

Instead of being more considerate you jumped the gun straight away saying I'm insensitive, condemning me, etc. Then you want to turn around and tell me you're open hearted and I'm coming from fear? 

Nyseto, I am not saying you have no compassion, you certainly lack some dimensions of compassion, this is true. And it is not just because you said a particular thing. If you will one day re-read this conversation, maybe you will be able to understand my perspective.

I am not condemning you, I do believe you lack sensitivity. It is clear to me and others. This could be a powerful moment for you if you could recognize this in yourself. It would be a leap in consciousness, but this doesn't need to happen. It is not expected, currently fear is occupying your heart.

 

Look, you are not open hearted at this very moment. You wouldn't be so defensive. You would say "Brother, I can see how you would interpret what I said in this way, but here, let me show you how I meant this in another way. I actually do care about the animals that are suffering, I am a vegan myself and I seek to advocate for it.", something of this sort.

You would not compare yourself to me, this is an act of fear. You would not respond to what you perceive to be attacks on your personality the way you do. You would have compassion for me and be patient.

 

All of this will be very obvious to you when the time has come. You are not at the end of the path, nor am I my brother. There is no point in comparing ourselves to each other. We should help each other on our paths. And this is my attempt to help you. It might not succeed, but I am not perfect either.

[Nyseto]

Just now, Scholar said:

Nyseto, I am not saying you have no compassion, you certainly lack some dimensions of compassion, this is true. And it is not just because you said a particular thing. If you will one day re-read this conversation, maybe you will be able to understand my perspective.

I am not condemning you, I do believe you lack sensitivity. It is clear to me and others. This could be a powerful moment for you if you could recognize this in yourself. It would be a leap in consciousness, but this doesn't need to happen. It is not expected, currently fear is occupying your heart.

 

Look, you are not open hearted at this very moment. You wouldn't be so defensive. You would say "Brother, I can see how you would interpret what I said in this way, but here, let me show you how I meant this in another way. I actually do care about the animals that are suffering, I am a vegan myself and I seek to advocate for it.", something of this sort.

You would not compare yourself to me, this is an act of fear. You would not respond to what you perceive to be attacks on your personality the way you do. You would have compassion for me and be patient.

 

All of this will be very obvious to you when the time has come. You are not at the end of the path, nor am I my brother. There is no point in comparing ourselves to each other. We should help each other on our paths. And this is my attempt to help you. It might not succeed, but I am not perfect either.

I don't see it as being defensive in anyway and so I think you're taking it the wrong way and projecting that onto me. I'm just explaining what I think.

Lacking sensitivity or being more rigid is all an expression of love too. You have too much of a one size fits all approach to people. 

Thx for the help but pushing it on me isn't really help.

 

[Consept]

9 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I want to know what you think of this one issue. Venezuela used to be capitalist and ever since it started going socialist, they've gone downhill. Why?

This is an easy go to usually from right wing, libertarian types, not saying you are that but thats usually who comes with this points, its an argument to make it seem like socialist policies shouldnt be pursued. Its lacking so much context its kind of ridiculous, there are many reasons why it didnt work in Venezuela, you can have a look into that yourself rather than using it as a check mate point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Chávez_administration#Cooperatives_and_economic_democratization

One point for example is - "Since Chávez was elected in 1998, over 100,000 worker-owned cooperatives—representing approximately 1.5 million people—were formed with the assistance of government start-up credit, technical training, and by giving preferential treatment to cooperatives in state purchases of goods and equipment. There has been an increase in the amount of cooperative enterprises that have tax incentives in the new 1999 constitution. As of 2005, approximately 16% of Venezuela's formally employed citizens were employed in a cooperative. However, a 2006 census showed that as many as 50% of the cooperatives were either functioning improperly, or were fraudulently created to gain access to public funds."

The main reasons it failed is that it was just poor management, corruption, no future planning. This of course is very likely in a country with high levels of poverty. In places like Sweden, Denmark etc, they also have a lot of social policies and have been pretty successful, not just financially but the citizens have more opportunities, less poverty etc

[Scholar]

Just now, Nyseto said:

I don't see it as being defensive in anyway and so I think you're taking it the wrong way and projecting that onto me. I'm just explaining what I think.

Lacking sensitivity or being more rigid is all an expression of love too. You have too much of a one size fits all approach to people. 

Thx for the help but pushing it on me isn't really help.

 

Alright, but I do hope you heed my advice and come back to this conversation at a later point. You could bookmark it and one day when you remember and feel open-hearted, you can come back and read this.

[Nyseto]

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

This is an easy go to usually from right wing, libertarian types, not saying you are that but thats usually who comes with this points, its an argument to make it seem like socialist policies shouldnt be pursued. Its lacking so much context its kind of ridiculous, there are many reasons why it didnt work in Venezuela, you can have a look into that yourself rather than using it as a check mate point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Chávez_administration#Cooperatives_and_economic_democratization

One point for example is - "Since Chávez was elected in 1998, over 100,000 worker-owned cooperatives—representing approximately 1.5 million people—were formed with the assistance of government start-up credit, technical training, and by giving preferential treatment to cooperatives in state purchases of goods and equipment. There has been an increase in the amount of cooperative enterprises that have tax incentives in the new 1999 constitution. As of 2005, approximately 16% of Venezuela's formally employed citizens were employed in a cooperative. However, a 2006 census showed that as many as 50% of the cooperatives were either functioning improperly, or were fraudulently created to gain access to public funds."

The main reasons it failed is that it was just poor management, corruption, no future planning. This of course is very likely in a country with high levels of poverty. In places like Sweden, Denmark etc, they also have a lot of social policies and have been pretty successful, not just financially but the citizens have more opportunities, less poverty etc

Venezuela may be an easy go to by the right wing but damn does it have some merit to discuss. One thing though, it's not really the best to right away dismiss it as oh it comes from the right let's ignore it (not saying you did). But I have seen people doing that and I've been guilty of it myself. For example when I hear equality I think immediately...of course the left wing!

I can say I know a lot of people who think that Sweden and Denmark are largely capitalist though so idk. 

I'm just glad you elaborated on it rather than dismissing it as right wing bullshit. That part you mentioned where it already had high levels of poverty made a lot of sense. But my question now is, since it already had high levels of poverty, why did it still get worse after socialism? It was in better standing before 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nyseto

[Nyseto]

15 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Alright, but I do hope you heed my advice and come back to this conversation at a later point. You could bookmark it and one day when you remember and feel open-hearted, you can come back and read this.

Hey man, I've said all I had to say to that. If there's anything else you want to talk about, I'm down

[Forestluv]

36 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I want to know what you think of this one issue. Venezuela used to be capitalist and ever since it started going socialist, they've gone downhill. Why?

Did you really pull the Venezuela card? ?

That is nowhere near what I’m advocating for and the U.S. has a very different history, structural systems, wealth and power dynamics than Venezuela. 

The U.S. is a mixture of socialism and capitalism. It’s not binary of 100% capitalist or 100% socialist. The U.S. is not going to become a purely socialist or communist country. That is a strawman. The question is wether the U.S. is too far shifted toward capitalism or socialism. To me, the U.S. is glaringly shifted toward capitalism to the point of toxic capitalism. Look at the military industrial complex, the most inefficient healthcare system in the developed world, for-profit prison system, lobbyists, election funding, wealth inequality, opioid crisis etc. I would advocate for a shift that disempowers toxic capitalism and empowers healthy socialism. Yet this is a shift, within a hybrid system. I would say Denmark is an example. I think the best we can hope for at this point is regulated capitalism with a strong social net. Countries with such systems consistently rank highest is wellness.

[Nyseto]

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Did you really pull the Venezuela card? ?

That is nowhere near what I’m advocating for and the U.S. has a very different history, structural systems, wealth and power dynamics than Venezuela. 

The U.S. is a mixture of socialism and capitalism. It’s not binary of 100% capitalist or 100% socialist. The U.S. is not going to become a purely socialist or communist country. That is a strawman. The question is wether the U.S. is too far shifted toward capitalism or socialism. To me, the U.S. is glaringly shifted toward capitalism to the point of toxic capitalism. Look at the military industrial complex, the most inefficient healthcare system in the developed world, for-profit prison system, lobbyists, election funding, wealth inequality etc. I would advocate for a shift that disempowers toxic capitalism and empowers healthy socialism. Yet this is a shift, within a hybrid system. I would say Denmark is an example. I think the best we can hope for at this point is regulated capitalism with a strong social net. Countries with such systems consistently rank highest is wellness.

Lol! But see look man, you're already pre judging it as the big bad "Venezuela card" from the horrible right. The left and the right do this to eachother everyday, this is why they can't work together from too much animosity. I hope you can be open minded enough and offer some good points on it. I'd like to know. 

The left is all about globalization therefore we can't ignore Venezuela. What is up with Venezuela? 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nyseto

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Lol! But see look man, you're already pre judging it as the big bad "Venezuela card" from the horrible right.

No, I’m not. I see it as a ridiculous absurd point that has zero relevance to what I’m talking about. It would be like you saying “we can’t deal with the covid crisis because microbes don’t exist”. I would laugh that you pulled the covid hoax card. 

If you think I’m advocating for a Venezuelan system of government, you are so far from what I’m actually talking about that we can’t have a discussion.
 

8 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I hope you can be open minded enough and offer some good points on it. I'd like to know. 

I’ve given over a dozen points about toxic capitalism and how shifting some toxic capitalism toward social programs would be beneficial. Yet you don’t seem to want to discuss the issues.

[Nyseto]

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

No, I’m not. I’m seeing it as a ridiculous absurd point that has zero relevance to what I’m talking about. It would be like you asking “but how can we deal with the climate crisis if the world is flat”. I would laugh that you pulled a flat earth card. 
 

I’ve given over a dozen points about toxic capitalism and how shifting some toxic capitalism toward social programs would be beneficial. Yet you don’t seem to want to discuss the issues.

I understand your point on toxic capitalism and social programs being beneficial. I don't disagree. 

I've addressed your point, now will you address mine? ? 

You're pro universal healthcare and education which is socialistic. 

What's up with Venezuela? Let's say I'm your 10 year old kid and I come home saying, "If socialism works, then what happened in Venezuela? All these Trump supporters talk about Venezuela. What are they on to? Are they all just tripping balls or what? 74 million people is a lot of people." 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nyseto