Why is Brexit bad?

[Consept]

5 hours ago, Claymoree said:

I am one of the people have benefited the most from EU too, as I am not UK citizen and came here thanks to EU, I didn't vote, but if I would vote , I would vote exit, as I  think that this country has to recover, I just feel that it is right direction,

I can't point to what will be better, as it could go either way, from point of trade it seems UK will be fine based on article I read like week ago, they have already made huge amount of trade deals with possibility of improving them, also EU is not closed, or non-option to improve trade agreements with.

Also do not see problem with traveling besides current situation with Covid, or that opportunity for qualified people moving within EU disappearing. 

What I hope for is that housing and wage will be able to catch up with restrictions on immigration, wages are very hard to predict, as it depends on how industries will be able to cope, grow and if they don't decide to move, if that happens then we will have bad few years

Overall will have to be more competitive and innovative, find niches where this country excels, if it does then it will be great and make it better for everyone in UK.

 

 

There is no economist you can find that would tell you the UK will be better off, potentially it may not be a massive disaster as was predicted but thats about it. Even Boris Johnson when he was running was London mayor said how important being in the EU was, meaning he doesnt truly believe its best to be out he just did what he needed to be leader. The only people really for brexit is some rich people who may benefit and seems to be people who are concerned about immigration, which includes you despite being a migrant. This argument doesnt really work considering EU migrants an average contribute £2,300 net per year to the public purse, also non-eu immigration is 4.5 times higher than eu immigration and non-eu immigrants contribution is actually negative (this is because of extra healthcare costs etc). 

Obviously the Brexit deal will have no effect on non-eu immigration, Britain could always set whatever immigration policy they wanted, Brexit does not help in that regard at all. 

Travelling and working for British people will be explicitly affected as you can only live in a country for for 90 days in a 6 month period, meaning if you want to live and work in another country you will not be able to, despite being able to drive to other countries. Its like if you live in Ohio america but can only live and work in Ohio, thats a very restrictive measure. 

[Blackhawk]

This is one of the disadvantages of democracy. Stupid people can make stupid decisions, like leaving the EU, voting for Trump, not joining Nato, etc. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Blackhawk

[snowyowl]

13 hours ago, Consept said:

In terms of whether people have been better off in the UK - since joining in 1973 the UK has experienced 103% per capita gdp growth which is more than the USAs 97%.

But how do you know if this is due to EU policies, or domestic govt? How to separate the complex variables? Don't forget there was another massive shift in politics in the late 70s when the nationalising Labour party approach gave way to privatisation, monetarism and deregulated free market policy of Margaret Thatcher (who was pretty Eurosceptic).  We've had higher average incomes, but inequality is still a major problem, and the North-South divide is as bad as ever. There's plenty of old mining communities up north here which had their industries destroyed while there's still plenty of coal left underground. (Rant over, the 80s was my formative time politically!). 

[Consept]

53 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

But how do you know if this is due to EU policies, or domestic govt?

Im not really saying its specifically because of the EU, it is hard to pin down and as you say there are a lot of variables. The point is that its hard to make the argument that the UK has been hindered or been worse off because of the EU when the numbers are actually higher than American growth which has no such restrictions and is a world super power. So essentially we're trading in something that has worked at least as good as high performing economies and gambling on something that every economist is saying is a step in the wrong direction, i just dont see the logic. 

Inequality is still a problem of course but this would be something domestic government can really make a difference with through policy, minimum wage increase etc. In fact the EUs human rights policies at least acts to try and prevent exploitation of people. 

[Danioover9000]

@Consept

14 hours ago, Consept said:

Im from the UK born and bred, in some ways it is worse, some of the things you mentioned like getting a house is definitely harder but that isnt due to being in the EU, im not sure thats your argument, the reason why its harder for younger people is because of things like recessions, austerity, trickle down economics, wages stagnating etc. But this is all due to bad economic policy that favoured the rich. Again if you want to link these things to joining the EU im happy to hear your theory on it. Whats funny is that its mainly older people that voted to leave, these older people have benefited the most from the economy during the EU, theyve managed to own their houses and get full pensions, whereas the young people who mainly voted to stay are the ones that will not benefit from the EU and also will not be able to freely travel. There are even British people who enjoy their retirement in Spain but voted to leave. 

 Again can you point to what will be better after we leave the EU?

 

Nothing just showing the reasoning behind the publics vote, and also i thought it was funny

   It's just not enough evidence from one video to show that the British public are stupid in voting to leave. The video caller happened to be for leave, yet how he answers the podcast person's questions is his use of his mind and his perspective only, not the perspective of all who voted to leave. I think we need a bigger sample size to actually determine if these people are stupid, not to only use one video as a voice representing all leavers.

   Of course, those that voted to remain are stupid too in their own ways, so I'm not picking a side. It's all a huge mess.

[snowyowl]

@Consept fair enough, it's not a simple matter of one side = good, the other side = bad. Just different visions. It's pretty clear that we all need some radical and creative thinking, 'outside the box' because we're entering an uncertain new phase. Plus, there's other disruptive forces around, technological, geo-political, demographic, environmental, medical too, meaning that no-one can just carry on in the old way. Who knows, perhaps the EU will be slower and more bureaucratic adapting to the future than small independent states? But we're still Europeans, we will have relationships for the economy, security etc. 

[Danioover9000]

@Blackhawk

2 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

This is one of the disadvantages of democracy. Stupid people can make stupid decisions, like leaving the EU, voting for Trump, not joining Nato, etc. 

   Would you rather have authoritarianism instead of a democracy? 

[Blackhawk]

32 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Blackhawk

   Would you rather have authoritarianism instead of a democracy? 

I think there should be some authoritarianism. And luckily there is some degree of authoritarianism. For example, heroin is illegal, etc. It's for our own good, to protect idiots from their idiocy.

So the question is where to draw the line. Maybe it shouldn't be possible for the idiots to make your country leave EU. And maybe your country should be forced into Nato, and maybe it sholdn't be possible to vote for sociopath dictators like Trump, etc.

Children need boundaries.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Blackhawk

[Consept]

33 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

It's just not enough evidence from one video to show that the British public are stupid in voting to leave. The video caller happened to be for leave, yet how he answers the podcast person's questions is his use of his mind and his perspective only, not the perspective of all who voted to leave. I think we need a bigger sample size to actually determine if these people are stupid, not to only use one video as a voice representing all leavers.

   Of course, those that voted to remain are stupid too in their own ways, so I'm not picking a side. It's all a huge mess.

Of course, i wasnt saying everyone that voted is stupid, i just found the video funny, its not so serious. Having said that, on that channel there are a lot of people who call in that have similar perspectives, even in my own experience talking to people im yet to hear a coherent argument of why we would be better off out of the EU. It usually comes down to immigration and this was what the campaign was based on, Ive attached an example picture of a brexit advert. The argument that the EU is responsible for problem with immigration is just not correct at lacks a lot of context, ive pointed out why this immigration argument doesnt make sense in an earlier post. So if the decision was based on this it is a stupid decision, anything after the fact is just trying to justify it. There maybe other good reasons to leave and im more than open to hear them i just havent yet. 

39 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

fair enough, it's not a simple matter of one side = good, the other side = bad. Just different visions. It's pretty clear that we all need some radical and creative thinking, 'outside the box' because we're entering an uncertain new phase. Plus, there's other disruptive forces around, technological, geo-political, demographic, environmental, medical too, meaning that no-one can just carry on in the old way. Who knows, perhaps the EU will be slower and more bureaucratic adapting to the future than small independent states? But we're still Europeans, we will have relationships for the economy, security etc. 

Yes things always need to change and evolve, i just feel that Britain does have a bit of an obsession with this idea of 'sovereignty' and independence sometimes to its own detriment, its very possible to be both independent and work as part of a collective that is mutually beneficial, espeicially in a world thats growing evermore closer together. 

40 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Would you rather have authoritarianism instead of a democracy? 

Another way would be to educate people about politics and critical thinking, instead of giving them misinformation and targeting their fears to make them vote a certain way. Freedom to vote should also mean freedom of manipulation 

[Blackhawk]

The racists always blame everything on immigration.

And they are always against alliances and cooperation. Their desire is to be alone and isolated.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

18 minutes ago, Consept said:

Another way would be to educate people about politics and critical thinking, instead of giving them misinformation and targeting their fears to make them vote a certain way. Freedom to vote should also mean freedom of manipulation 

Yes.

[Danioover9000]

@Blackhawk

24 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

The racists always blame everything on immigration.

And they are always against alliances and cooperation. Their desire is to be alone and isolated.

 

   Which one do you mean: Nationalists, civic nationalists, religious nationalists or ethnic nationalists?

[Consept]

I wouldn't go as far to call all of them racists, but there are a decent amount of racists in the UK and I can bet you all actual racists voted to leave. 

You can be nationalist but the arguments still have to make sense, if youre voting for something that could potentially damage your country then how can you even claim to be a nationalist? If they want to sort out immigration that is something that could've been looked at and changed whilst being in the EU. A lot of people literally thought all immigrants would have to leave once we left, also race hate crimes went up significantly after brexit. 

[Blackhawk]

9 minutes ago, Consept said:

I wouldn't go as far to call all of them racists, but there are a decent amount of racists in the UK and I can bet you all actual racists voted to leave. 

You can be nationalist but the arguments still have to make sense, if youre voting for something that could potentially damage your country then how can you even claim to be a nationalist? If they want to sort out immigration that is something that could've been looked at and changed whilst being in the EU. A lot of people literally thought all immigrants would have to leave once we left, also race hate crimes went up significantly after brexit. 

?

[Claymoree]

11 hours ago, Consept said:

There is no economist you can find that would tell you the UK will be better off, potentially it may not be a massive disaster as was predicted but thats about it.

So what is your point? Ofc no economist will say it, but it is not like there is no potential for it to be better even from such standpoint, it is just very unclear as they are talking about economic growth of the country, they are not talking about how people are becoming replaceable slaves, how housing is way to expensive, how debts are huge problem , homelessness or other issues, because it has nothing to do with economical growth.

 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Claymoree said:

So what is your point? Ofc no economist will say it, but it is not like there is no potential for it to be better even from such standpoint, it is just very unclear as they are talking about economic growth of the country, they are not talking about how people are becoming replaceable slaves, how housing is way to expensive, how debts are huge problem , homelessness or other issues, because it has nothing to do with economical growth.

 

OK breakdown how being out of the EU instead of in will help with the problems you've highlighted 

[Blackhawk]

There is no rational reason when the little child revolts against its parents. The little child revolts for the sake of revolting.

[levani]

cheaper airplane tickets for the brits bro

[hyruga]

Wrong campaigning: Should not have used the word #Bremain.

#Bremain sounds like being left behind after many people join another side. It also sounds like dead people remains.

Should have used #Brstay which means they choose to stay! Not remain behind!

 

Bremain vs Brexit was big in Twitter in 2016.

[Danioover9000]

23 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

The racists always blame everything on immigration.

And they are always against alliances and cooperation. Their desire is to be alone and isolated.

 

    Also, by some users' logic here, the man above that decides to leave his country and live in a different country, is a coward. Why? Because other users on a different thread called such people cowards below: 

   and I'll tell you that cowardice is relative, because we don't know and have a universal standard for cowardice.

   Is the contractor, hired to work for 1-2 years in a different country, living in that time period of 1-2 years, a coward in his home country?

   Is the immigrant that's seeking asylum, or is migrating for a better working life, leaving his/her home country, a coward?

   Is the person on vacation for a week-a month, on a foreign country, a coward?

   Is the person whose doing a retreat/solo retreat for a week, a few weeks or a month, a coward?

   Is the person whose a permanent staff, who refuses to take a vacation, or to live on a different country, a coward?

   I don't know what will happen to the UK, post-Brexit for 5-10 years give or take, but I will say that I don't have enough information to assume that the UK will bankrupt itself and go down a spiral, or that the UK will be much better off being more independent as a sovereign nation onto itdself, with a different trade deal between it and the EU.

   I will certainly say that I'm aware of how and when my ego projects it's fear and insecurities around this socio-political shift, desiring that the UK needs to remain in the EU just for security sake, and desiring that the UK should be more independent, and establish new trade deals with other countries that is between the UK and those other countries, and not have the EU act as a middle-man between the new trade deals.