machinegun

Karma doesn't exist

37 posts in this topic

 

I don't know if this is a revelation everyone has, but a few days ago I came to the conclusion that life is not even remotely fair. This was because I read about the case of Junko Furuta. Don't read the Wikipedia page unless you're willing to cry and/or vomit. 

I think karma is something we all want to believe in-bad guys getting punished- but seriously, a lot of the times it works out in favor of the bad guy.

I watched a video from Leo about how karma comes back in the form of a guilty conscience, but some actions are so fucked up that guilt alone could never absolve the pain these people cause.

Like do you really think a motherfucker like Gengis Kahn was feeling remorse at the end of his life? People were celebrating this mass rapist and murder as a hero, he must have felt like a fucking god.

I guess I'm just disappointed because I have always wanted to believe things return to balance at the end. This world is truly fucked up.

 

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Yeah there seems to be a lot of injustice in the world, I can see where you are coming from. I don't think that material punishment (jail, bad luck, negative emotions) is all that people mean when they refer to karma. I don't have any true understanding of what karma means, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it doesn't exist.

Neither I nor you, as I'd guess, know what will happen after death. Maybe these guys will just die one day and that will be the end of their story. Maybe there truly is a hell that these guys will go to. Maybe they will be reincarnated as Furuta and will have to suffer through the torment that they have brought upon her. I don't know enough about reality in order to be able to judge whether karma is a thing or not, but I guess that the topic of karma is much deeper and way more nuanced than mere material punishments like going to jail.

Like I once found a lost phone and returned it to it's owner. A couple of years later I lost my own phone and never saw it again. I could use this as 'proof' that karma doesn't exist, but perhaps karma is a much larger phenomena than the simple game of justice/injustice?

I mean justice and injustice are just interpretations of your ego mind. It's an important function of survival. If humans didn't think in terms of just and unjust we would have went extinct a long time ago. Justice is how we survive, but don't confuse survival with spirituality. I don't think that the same rules that apply for humans (our interpretations of what is 'good' and 'bad'), apply for all of reality.

 

I am basically just trying to say that our perspectives are way too limited to be able to properly determine whether karma is the real deal or not and how exactly karma works. I doubt that we can understand what karma really means as long as we are still stuck playing the game of duality. Of right and wrong. Of good and evil. Maybe transcending this game will reveal the true consequences of our doing.

Edited by DefinitelyNotARobot

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10 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I mean yeah, I guess. But, based on what we can see, and speaking from my experience, there's little to no retribution. If there were some proof of karma I'd like to see it

@DefinitelyNotARobot

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@machinegun This may be hard to believe, but everything that happens in life is a gift for you. Everything, bar none. If it wasn’t for your highest good, it wouldn’t be happening. 
 

Karma doesn’t exist, but not because life is unfair. It doesn’t exist because nothing bad happens in life that requires retribution. 
 

This is something that I have directly experienced. The only reason you’re not seeing it is because your ego is doing a good job of hiding it. Once you’ve done enough work on your ego, I’m sure you’ll see it too. Life is good!


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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2 hours ago, machinegun said:

If there were some proof of karma I'd like to see it

Well if you want to proof/disproof it you'll have to transcend your current state of mind. These are things that you'll have to find out for yourself. Nobody can show you what karma is. You'll have to find the meaning for yourself. But I'd bet that you'll have to enter some higher state of consciousness if you want to get some true understanding. I doubt that it will make much sense from within our everyday experience.


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42 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

It doesn’t exist because nothing bad happens in life that requires retribution. 

But does karma require the existence of the concepts of 'good' and 'bad'? What even is karma in the first place?

Some people see it as some kind of universal justice system. But is THAT really what our ancestors meant? It feels like there is a lot more beneath the surface.


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@machinegun Karma is just an idea. There isn't any actual Karma being collected or cleared. 

Karma means "action" or "deed". 

Ok, so what does that mean? It means, that if you think "you" act, then there is Karma. It means that there is still an identification with thought, because you think that behind every "doing/deed" there is a "do-er"; somebody, who is doing certain things. The "do-er" however is itself just a thought; there isn't any individual self exerting control. 

So, to "lose" Karma means to see though the illusion of a separate self. 

This is connected to the idea of Samsara: if you think that you as a separate self exist, "you" were born. And as long as you think that you were born, you will also have to think that you're going to die because birth implies death (life is not the opposite of death, it's birth).

Edited by Tim R

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8 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Ok, so what does that mean? It means, that if you think "you" act, then there is Karma. It means that there is still an identification with thought, because you think that behind every "doing/deed" there is a "do-er"; somebody, who is doing certain things. The "do-er" however is itself just a thought; there isn't any individual self exerting control. 

Could you explain that further? Why does karma need an actor/doer? You've already said that it means 'action' or 'deed'. But action doesn't require an actor, or does it? I mean look at an ocean. The waves aren't in a state of doer ship. They just go with the flow. No questions, no objections. No good, no bad. They just do what they do. But still, there is a consequence to each wave. In fact, the wave itself IS a consequence, caused by another consequence, causing another consequence.

Similarly we are nothing but waves in this ocean of life. We go with the flow, telling ourselves that we don't. So can't karma just be that?

I'd like to hear your opinions on that. Also can we get clear on a definition of what karma means, I feel like a lot of the problems I have with understanding this concept is that different people have different definitions of karma.


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15 hours ago, machinegun said:

Like do you really think a motherfucker like Gengis Kahn was feeling remorse at the end of his life? People were celebrating this mass rapist and murder as a hero, he must have felt like a fucking god.

He by himself would have been unlikely to cause much trouble. Ditto for Hitler and others. Humanity wants to blame everything but itself, which unfortunately ensures progress will be minimal.

I believe there are mechanisms in the bigger picture to balance the extremes of unfairness and injustice that we appear to witness here. But if there is only one of us, it becomes harder to judge anything as good or bad.

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29 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

The waves aren't in a state of doer ship.

That's right, therefore there is no Karma, no illusion of doing, no birth (the wave doesn't believe itself to be a wave, "waving" along) and hence no death.

Can you see how there aren't any "waves"?xD We aren't waves, we are the ocean believeng itself to be a wave.

29 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

But still, there is a consequence to each wave. In fact, the wave itself IS a consequence, caused by another consequence, causing another consequence.

Consequence and cause are also just illusions (albeit very, very tricky ones); Dogen says it in his "Shōbōgenzō": "Spring doesn't become summer. There is spring, and then there is summer."

Which is exactly correct of course. Look at the sky: are the clouds leaving a trail? No. Are the birds leaving a trail? No. Look at wood, burning: does it leave a trail? No, there is wood and then there is ashes, but the wood doesn't become the ashes. 

Why not? Because the past doesn't exist (and neither does the future).

Now look at yourself in the same way: you aren't the consequence of who you were, what you really are is who you are now! But if you think that you are somehow a consequence from the past and a cause for the future, you are under illusion; that is your Karma. 

To think that you are the consequence of your past is your birth (= cause), and to think that you are the cause of your future is your death (=consequence), you see? That's Samsara. (since all consequence is also a cause, birth and death are of course identical)

Whereas in reality, you only exist now! And now is neither birth nor death because you as a separate self don't exist and therefore were never born and are never going to die!!xD That's Nirvana! 

 

btw if you're into Zen/Buddhism in general, I highly recommend you read Dogens "Shōbōgenzō". It might be a difficult book, but definitely worth giving a shot!:)

Edited by Tim R

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@Tim R Okay that makes sense. I was thinking about it in terms of ocean = cause, wave = consequence, in the sense that the wave can't be without the ocean. But what you are saying is that the sense of something being done is just another wave, right? Are there even any waves or is the ocean completely still?

I first have to experience the eternal now before I can make any statements on the second part.

Edited by DefinitelyNotARobot

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1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

the sense of something being done is just another wave, right?

Right. 

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I first have to experience the eternal now

@DefinitelyNotARobot And when do you expect that is going to happen, hm?:D

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1 minute ago, Tim R said:

And when do you expect that is going to happen, hm?:D

Perhaps somewhere in the future? xD


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I'm reading a book at present by Alan Watts entitled "You Are It!". In there he states that the word karma has been mistranslated in English. @Tim R has hit the nail on the head with his explanation above. It correlates with what Alan Watts describes. 

The book is well worth a look too. Also available on Audible 

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@machinegun Karma is not about rewarding the good and punishing the bad. Karma is about cause and effect on different levels: individual, collective, physical, metaphysical and so on, which are all interconnected with each other in a very complicated way, which is difficult to track down. And which is impossible to track down for somebody whom you know only from Wikipedia. A lot of dimensions and interactions get lost for you.

When I observe people and events around me, I don´t see any irregularities or something illogical. But I am speaking really about the 1st circle, not the friends of the friends and not about Gengis Kahn and his victims :) 

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17 hours ago, machinegun said:

This world is truly fucked up.

No it's not. Maybe you need to get into nature more.

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2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Are there even any waves or is the ocean completely still?

The ocean is not still. "Stillness" is just another idea. The ocean isn't moving, "movement" is also just an idea. 

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4 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

But does karma require the existence of the concepts of 'good' and 'bad'? What even is karma in the first place?

Some people see it as some kind of universal justice system. But is THAT really what our ancestors meant? It feels like there is a lot more beneath the surface.

When Sadhguru talks about karma, he basically means ‘consequence.’ If you do x, then expect y to happen. For example, if you gorge on sugar, expect to gain weight. That definition of karma makes sense to me. But most people, especially in the west, define karma as ‘retribution’, which I believe is false.


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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22 hours ago, machinegun said:

I don't know if this is a revelation everyone has, but a few days ago I came to the conclusion that life is not even remotely fair. This was because I read about the case of Junko Furuta. Don't read the Wikipedia page unless you're willing to cry and/or vomit. 

Some months ago an acquaintance of mine told me about that Junko Furuta case, that shit was crazily horrific and stills sticks in my mind. It made me feel physically sick when I first read it, not so extreme a reaction anymore but it still leaves me unsettled with a "moment of silence" mood. 

I think we have to see the fact that we don't know why suffering and human cruelty like this exists, or don't know if the universe will make things even, as hard as that might be. 
 

22 hours ago, machinegun said:

I guess I'm just disappointed because I have always wanted to believe things return to balance at the end. This world is truly fucked up.

I'm not sure if you were ever religious, but when the worldview of Islam fell apart for me, one of the things which bothered me was surrendering the idea of heaven and hell. Because those two concepts give you the security that no matter what happens in this life, a higher wisdom will sort things out once everything is done and we're dead.

Maybe there is a higher wisdom, but we have to empty our cup of old and familiar, and recalibrate our senses to see it. And that includes emptying the cup of old unfounded beliefs in a higher wisdom. 

---
https://filmdaily.co/news/junko-furuta-2/ This very simple article summarises a lot of the wisdom to be learnt from acts of cruelty such as these. 

Edited by lmfao

Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough.

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