Should cultural artifacts be returned to their native countries?

[Lyubov]

Basically artifacts stolen during colonialism and the British empire were placed into museums in western countries. Should they be returned to their native countries as these countries develop and create their own museums?

 

[Preety_India]

A firm no. 

Cultural hegemony is rubbish. 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Preety_India

[Yog]

@Lyubov  As you said man, they are stolen. We know what we do with stolen stuff.


I remember having to study some local bronze age artifacts, but I could never do it, I could not get to them because they were in London, or New York. It suxed.

Lets say Its a sign of respect and a demonstration of a will to cooperate, play together, show well manners.

[Preety_India]

There is no need to return anything. They are fine in the museums where they are. 

In fact if they are returned to native cultures then these cultures or countries will either sell them, they might get stolen by local thugs or they will rot because these countries either don't care about their own Artifacts or they don't have the resources to preserve and respect these Artifacts of their own ancestors. 

So they are safe in the London museum and let them remain there. 

There is no need to create stupid culture wars over some country holding your Artifacts. They are also taking good care of it. Let them. 

 

[Yog]

Meh, Idk.

Most archaeological work is done/studied locally. That is the best way it can be studied.

It kind of sucks when someone takes stuff from middle of your research space and locks it in his private home collection. It just doesn't vibe.

With museums, its a bit better I guess. You'll just have to travel for your local meant stuff.

[Preety_India]

I understand that they were stolen. 

But what's the big deal even if they were stolen? 

It's not like they are sold to someone who is breaking or destroying them. 

At least they're safe. 

 

[Apparition of Jack]

7 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I understand that they were stolen. 

But what's the big deal even if they were stolen? 

It's not like they are sold to someone who is breaking or destroying them. 

At least they're safe. 

 

A nation's cultural makeup is influenced by a lot of things, part of which is its archeological treasures.

It would be like if, idk, Korea went and dismantled the statue of liberty in New York then put it in a stadium in Seoul instead. It would hurt the American psyche a lot and a lot of people would feel angry / depressed etc.

Also, by putting them back in their original place, you re-connect that part of history to the "living world" around it, by letting people experience those statues / carvings / artefacts etc. in the same location that humans from thousands of years ago did. It's all about connecting with the past.

[Opo]

@Preety_India By that logic would you be ok if rich people stole children from some village in third world and they took them to a safer place and took good care of them? 

[Preety_India]

@Opo that's a stupid comparison. We're talking about non living objects. 

 

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

A nation's cultural makeup is influenced by a lot of things, part of which is its archeological treasures.

It would be like if, idk, Korea went and dismantled the statue of liberty in New York then put it in a stadium in Seoul instead. It would hurt the American psyche a lot and a lot of people would feel angry / depressed etc.

Also, by putting them back in their original place, you re-connect that part of history to the "living world" around it, by letting people experience those statues / carvings / artefacts etc. in the same location that humans from thousands of years ago did. It's all about connecting with the past.

Not necessarily. It's all about perception. 

Honestly if Korea took a statue from India and displayed it in their museum, I'd more than glad for such a cultural mix. To me it would represent how much they love and respect our culture that they chose to display something from our culture in their country. 

I'd like their stuff to be displayed in our museums. I'd see it as mutual love and respect and admiration for other cultures 

So even their ancestors stole something, but if they displayed it with pride in their country in their museums I'd be more than happy about it. 

It would be a different case if they displayed it badly or insulted it or used to mock the culture to which it belongs 

I don't believe so much in nationalism and national pride. Because that only creates more division. 

In fact if I found an Indian artifact in a Korean museum I'd be so delighted and surprised and honored that I saw my culture being represented somewhere else in the world, in contrast to finding an Indian artifact in an Indian museum. That would be boring because it's obvious that Indian museums will have Indian Artifacts, but it would be more exciting in knowing that another country is interested in our cultural history. 

I'm not very strict with cultural boundaries. I want cultures to love each other and mix. So I'm not going to hold any hate or resentment because some country is having my country's statues. Not at all. 

I see it as very ungenerous to ask a country to give items back. If they want it they can have it. It's no big deal if they love something and want to keep it with them. 

 

[Opo]

16 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Opo that's a stupid comparison. We're talking about non living objects. 

 

That was a hypothetical example to show you that your arguments work only when you don't care about something and as soon as we start talking about something you care about those arguments become silly. 

Btw I don't care about stupid cultural stuff but there are obviously people who do. 

So im just pointing out that these arguments won't work against those kinds of people. 

[seeking_brilliance]

I would say yes, unfortunately some of those countries are very hard or impossible to visit. Would want a full round-the-world tour with special pieces, and in a perfect world, no one would attempt to steal it. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[Preety_India]

14 minutes ago, Opo said:

That was a hypothetical example to show you that your arguments work only when you don't care about something and as soon as we start talking about something you care about those arguments become silly. 

Btw I don't care about stupid cultural stuff but there are obviously people who do. 

So im just pointing out that these arguments won't work against those kinds of people. 

I still wouldn't associate feelings with such things. In my mind it's very selfish and ungenerous to make such a demand. 

Let's say the Queen in another country wears a diamond from my country in her crown. So I'm supposed to demand it back from her? That would be very embarrassing for me to want back the diamond she wears. It would make me look selfish and very closed minded to not let her wear if she likes to wear it.. 

In my mind it's very immature and childish to make such demands. 

It's not like they are stealing the whole nation. It's only a few items at the most. That shouldn't be made into a big deal. 

Let's say a neighbor's kid came to my house and stole my dinner plate because he liked it so much. Now if the parents came to return the dinner plate to me, I'd tell them to keep it if their kid really likes it. It's another matter if their kid is stealing my whole house. 

But of course I wouldn't want to be so strict with someone who stole something out of unconsciousness. 

It's important to get over the past and not disrupt the relations between countries over a few stolen Artifacts. 

It would be very rude and closed minded to demand a country to return back items. It doesn't matter who owns them. Of course people who visit the museum already know where it belongs. As long as it is in safe hands it doesn't matter. 

If I were to move to another country and I have a large cabinet or sofa that I cannot move, maybe I'll leave it with my neighbor or even offer it to them for free. This is about trust. 

There should be a bond of trust between two countries. Demanding items back reflects Insecurity and lack of trust,as though we don't trust the country with our items. 

A truly generous country wouldn't show such Insecurity and lack of trust 

There is a certain big heartedness in saying "hey, you can keep it. Don't worry." 

Whereas creating a conflict over a few items shows childishness and lack of mutual trust and lack of open heartedness. 

I see it as children fighting over toys and saying "this is mine not yours" and the other kid saying "no its mine now." 

It's childish. 

 

[Monomachus]

Sometimes cultural artefacts surpass the boundry lines of nation states in importance.

[snowyowl]

Why the anti-western and anti-British bias in the original question? Lots of empires in history have looted their conquered subjects. Also, how do you know which artefacts were stolen vs purchased? The Elgin marbles are an interesting case of the complexity: although taken by a Scottish aristocrat, Greece was under Ottoman occupation at the time, and with looting and fighting they were arguably safer in Britain. But now, there's a good argument returning them; the point is, each artifact needs deciding individually rather than a blanket approach. 

[Opo]

9 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I still wouldn't associate feelings with such things. In my mind it's very selfish and ungenerous to make such a demand. 

It's ok. 

In my mind it's selfish not to take another person's perspective. 

[Leo Gura]

Rule of Acquisition #124: Finders keepers.

[Hansu]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rule of Acquisition #124: Finders keepers.

Lmao You are a man of culture!

19 hours ago, snowyowl said:

Also, how do you know which artefacts were stolen vs purchased?

I dont think cultural artefacts are for anyone to sell. They are significant for a specific culture, and just because someone has high position in that culture doesn't mean they can sell their artefacts and reap short term monetary gains.

Artefacts should be returned to their original owners, if that is requested and the owner is capable of keeping them safe.

 

[PurpleTree]

mostly no

a lot of them didn't even really care about those artifacts in the first place

it took french, british etc. people to come to egypt and dig this stuff up, the people living there didn't care

now some time in the future when these countries are peaceful, stable, valuing education etc. then probably

[Lyubov]

5 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

mostly no

a lot of them didn't even really care about those artifacts in the first place

it took french, british etc. people to come to egypt and dig this stuff up, the people living there didn't care

now some time in the future when these countries are peaceful, stable, valuing education etc. then probably

Isn't this kinda like taking candy from a baby though? the people they took it from were at a place of development where it was easy to justify taking them but this is still stealing non the less. Now that these countries are modernizing the process should begin to return them.