Guest EmptyVase

Discovering Awesomeness

186 posts in this topic

You asked me whether I have struggles relating to other people or whether I feel that there is a gap between me and them. I initially thought that this is a purely social question, so I answered “no”. I even said that, through feeling, I can even relate to them better than ever, which still is true.

But as I’m very successfully moving up the emotional scale with the work on social anxiety and insecurities, I’m noticing that there is a deeper layer to this – the topic you addressed came to the surface. It was only one or two weeks after I realized this discrepancy, that I remembered that you said that to me.

When I first discovered Spiral Dynamics, I looked at the world through this lens for quite some time, as I found it absolutely remarkable. Soon, I realized that this created a gap between me and friends/family/strangers. It disconnected me from the actual beauty of the moment, I was too much in my head with this model, judged too much. I didn’t necessarily saw myself above others, but it felt like I “knew too much” (from the perspective of Spiral Dynamics). That made me feel really uncomfortable. I learned a lot from it, but for social interactions, I ditched the SD perspective. I think it’s important here to mention that I did not really have struggles with socializing. I had a good time, others had a good time, I could totally relate to them, and understand from where they were coming from. But it still felt like as if I knew too much. So I sorta learned to forget the SD perspective for social matters and everything was good from there on. Honest communication at eye level. And it didn’t feel like as if I “knew too much” anymore. That was very relieving.

As I kept on working on my emotions on a social level, clearing out the last bits of insecurities and anxiety, I noticed something rather unexpected.

I noticed that, with this work, I opened up a lot. Open to completely new ways of being, open towards reality. This super open way of being became my new status quo so to speak. I picture it like this, I think it is a helpful analogy: We humans are like antennas, which can perceive/receive different frequencies – one of which is the world as we know it. But through an inner opening, you can blow up that antenna, so that you become receptive towards a wider frequency band. You can choose to be in the “earth frequency”, but you can also tune in to other frequencies.

For me, it feels as if though the antenna is always in search for new channels in which I can dial in (be it willingly or unwillingly, most of the time unwillingly though). So that’s my new “standard” way of being, which is also the same thing which guides me to source.

Now my problem is, whenever I go deep with spirituality, become more silent, receptive, and aware, I blast open the frequency band more and more. Which is nice. But as I tune in to “more frequencies”, the “human/earth frequency band” only becomes one of many frequencies. This makes “being human” kinda challenging, because with spirituality you’re, in a sense, in a fundamental unlearning process – and you forget the simplest things you learned, and fuck up things you’re “supposed to know”. This could be anything. From complex scientific/informational stuff to simple things, being social etc.

Sometimes I even forget that others did not go through a deeper self-discovery journey, but I talk to them, as if though they did. Then the “oh, right” moment waits right around the corner. At the latest, when I see that they have no clue what I’m really trying to talk about or what I’m trying to point towards (most of the time, it’s not even about spirituality, but about everyday life). Sounds super ego-loaded to write it out like this, and it probably is, but that is my experience.

I think it’s really interesting how my social anxiety transformed from insecurities towards not-knowing (in this case ditching the social insecurities towards not-knowing what it even is to “be social” – thus eliminating the fear behind the insecurities). And it’s also interesting how the problem of relating to other people really turned into a problem of relating to myself. In a social setting, it sometimes feels like "well, how do you even behave/act as a human being?". And it is great that this question makes me stumble because it gives space for source to fill it in creatively. But I don't really know how to actualize it. Being willing to go through the awkwardness of it is probably one of the most essential things though. xD

Being in a state of not-knowing while simultaneously being able to function as a human is a gap, which I could not yet quite successfully fill with creative energy. Especially with my more silent phases, it becomes extra challenging to be social, as I dissolve that very thing which is being social. I think I shouldn’t force anything, but I also shouldn't stand there passively. Creative, loving action from the unknown is neither forced nor passive.

Sorry for the super long text, but I couldn’t keep it shorter, as it was really challenging to put this dilemma into words. After writing it out, I was even unsure whether I should post this here or not, but here you go.

I think the problem will solve itself merely through exposure to the problem, but I also recognize that there could be some drastic or radical phases, in which reality crumbles apart in front of my eyes.

I would like to ask you two for your advice. And thanks in advance for reading, I really appreciate it a lot that you take the time, even if you only read it.

@Nahm because you initially posed the question to me.

@mandyjw because you had a video out on knowing and not-knowing, which resonated a lot with me. I hope it's okay that I ask you directly for advice.

:)

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@EmptyVase Of course! My thoughts from reading this and not knowing much more about it are that you're in the tension of searching for a "how I relate to people now" which is searching for a new self concept or identity that holds over time, that you'll never really find and secure. Kinda feels like the ground fell out from under you, and you wanted and loved the freedom of that, but it still feels funny sometimes, and every now and then you're like "OMG where's the f-ing ground?!". xD  

So a great way to deal with this is to determine what we want. Before, we were wanting to see ourselves a certain way, and now there's no reason to do that. It's tricky with other people because we want to use how we THINK they see us as how we will see ourselves, that's the perpetual search, "how do I see myself?". But what you really want now is to either drop the subject because it feels confusing the perplexing and because you can't receive and answer if you're continually putting out the question vibration. If you want to or must think about it focus on how you truly WANT to feel when you interact with people. Some of us have been driven so far into self image concerns and people pleasing that reclaiming that dream or vision feels like the most coveted thing, covered over, disallowed fantastical thing that we ever could have dreamed to want. And finally we get to allow that desire. We have no reason not to.

So love, fun, standing in my truth even if on the surface it seems like an uncomfortable interaction, truly appreciating the other person, truly hearing/receiving/feeling what they have to say, and truly listening and receiving and feeling for the response, in flow, inspired. Not judging myself when I'm not feeling all these things I want to feel. 

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

My thoughts from reading this and not knowing much more about it are that you're in the tension of searching for a "how I relate to people now" which is searching for a new self concept or identity that holds over time, that you'll never really find and secure. Kinda feels like the ground fell out from under you, and you wanted and loved the freedom of that, but it still feels funny sometimes, and every now and then you're like "OMG where's the f-ing ground?!". xD

Yess, exactly that!! It sure is funny, especially when you're in a situation where you say or do something unexpected, and it's a bit awkward and weird, and you can't help but laugh about it. Kinda reminds me of the question that Phil asked me: "What's appropriate and what's inappropriate?" ..Can't find the damn ground. xD

9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

But what you really want now is to either drop the subject because it feels confusing the perplexing and because you can't receive and answer if you're continually putting out the question vibration.

Yes, that's it. The reason why I hesitated to put this out was because I didn't even really want to think about the subject anymore. Letting it go, going out there, and letting the problem solve itself is the way to go. :)

9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

If you want to or must think about it focus on how you truly WANT to feel when you interact with people. Some of us have been driven so far into self image concerns and people pleasing that reclaiming that dream or vision feels like the most coveted thing, covered over, disallowed fantastical thing that we ever could have dreamed to want. And finally we get to allow that desire. We have no reason not to.

God yes, that was me a few months ago. It truly is mind-blowing how self-image concerns can totally distort the clarity of the mind and the clarity of feeling. Self-image concerns = chaos.

9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

So love, fun, standing in my truth even if on the surface it seems like an uncomfortable interaction, truly appreciating the other person, truly hearing/receiving/feeling what they have to say, and truly listening and receiving and feeling for the response, in flow, inspired. Not judging myself when I'm not feeling all these things I want to feel. 

This hits home, I really felt that. Feeling the love. Thank you so much for your answer. :)

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@EmptyVase

When you are using the scale, are you moving yourself up the scale, a thought about yourself up the scale, a thought about social interaction up the scale, or your thoughts about other peoples’ thoughts about you, up the scale?


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2 hours ago, Nahm said:

2862D9BE-0BBF-45D9-AA36-EEE7B71EE806.jpeg

Lmao that's what I first thought when I read your reply. Had to reread it a few times. ?

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@EmptyVase

When you are using the scale, are you moving yourself up the scale, a thought about yourself up the scale, a thought about social interaction up the scale, or your thoughts about other peoples thoughts about you, up the scale?

Generally speaking, I am, experientially, moving up the scale. Tbh I don't even really think about the scale, I don't even have the order of emotions in my mind. I just intuitively reach for whatever feels better. And then afterwards, when I take a look at the scale again (which, frankly, is not very often) I see how I passed through these different stages, most of the time in the same order.

But I also notice how I'm still thinking about a me, which "should" feel better.

Thinking about other peoples thoughts about me is a bit brighter on my radar, in the sense that I still worry about what others could be thinking about me.

I've never made the connection, but I definitely see how I'm trying to "move the social interaction up the scale" from time to time, instead of just chilling. I try to take full ownership and responsibility about how others feel, what they're thinking about, and what the whole situation is like. For example, if the vibes are low, I always feel responsible for that - which ties back to the thought of what others are thinking about me; and ultimately, what I am thinking about myself. All of it seems to have the same root, with different flavors.

Seems like the only reasonable thing which should move up the scale should be my living experience, eh? Everything else will probably naturally follow. And if not, that should also be no problem, cuz I'm 'up there', chilling in love.

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22 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Lmao that's what I first thought when I read your reply. Had to reread it a few times. ?

? ?? 

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Generally speaking, I am, experientially, moving up the scale.

Key insight imo....no you’re not. The I am, or awareness, is aware of the experience... and is not experiencing itself being moved up any scales. 

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Tbh I don't even really think about the scale, I don't even have the order of emotions in my mind. I just intuitively reach for whatever feels better. And then afterwards, when I take a look at the scale again (which, frankly, is not very often) I see how I passed through these different stages, most of the time in the same order.

But I also notice how I'm still thinking about a me, which "should" feel better.

Move the thought up the scale. It’s great you’re intuitively reaching for the better thought. This does not encroach on that, obviously do that. 

Another way to say this... while moving the thought up scale “oh, ok, this is how I’m creating emotion”. 

One paradigm: “This is how I understand what I’m experiencing, this is how I learn about myself”

Another paradigm: “Well fuck me. I’ve been creating these emotions I’m experiencing this whole time.” 

The difference is subtle and profound. 

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Thinking about other peoples thoughts about me is a bit brighter on my radar, in the sense that I still worry about what others could be thinking about me.

The belief that there is a direct experience of “other people’s thoughts”. Inspection reveals there is not. Missing that belief... one is already trying to “sort through other people’s thoughts”, or “sort through my thoughts about what other people think of me”. What’s being missing is that is all about a unicorn, which you never actually experience. 

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

I've never made the connection, but I definitely see how I'm trying to "move the social interaction up the scale" from time to time,

......instead of just chilling.

Instead of... just your thought - as in, the thought you are believing and are focusing on. “Social interaction” is not direct experience. Direct experience is of the thought “social interaction”... and perception. Mistaking this, one begins to paint social interaction as cumbersome to say the least, or “the problem” in more intense thought attachment cases, and this leads to ‘realms’ like narcissism, or missing one’s own projection of one’s own monkey mind. “Social interaction” is literally whatever you believe it is, if you believe your thoughts in the first place.  

(When I use the term monkey mind btw, it’s not meant derogatory, it point’s to you are not a monkey...and that’s why monkey mind feels ‘off’... look past any ‘beating up on yourself’ and see the liberation pointed to)

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

I try to take full ownership and responsibility about how others feel, what they're thinking about, and what the whole situation is like. For example, if the vibes are low, I always feel responsible for that - which ties back to the thought of what others are thinking about me; and ultimately, what I am thinking about myself. All of it seems to have the same root, with different flavors.

Yes, the root is your belief that you experience “other people’s thoughts”. That belief is in a bubble. My aim is to burst that bubble, because the bubble is made of goodness. This aspect is resonating as ‘video worthy’. Mind if I record a quick explanation and email it to you? Maybe you could give me feedback, like ‘great as it is’, or ‘change this or that’ to make it clearer? 

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Seems like the only reasonable thing which should move up the scale should be my living experience, eh?

Moving a thought up the scale is bursting a belief bubble which = the betterment and enhancement (via injection of more true nature & goodness) of & “into” the living experience.  

23 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Everything else will probably naturally follow. And if not, that should also be no problem, cuz I'm 'up there', chilling in love.

Hz8.gif


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NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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14 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Key insight imo....no you’re not. The I am, or awareness, is aware of the experience... and is not experiencing itself being moved up any scales.

So what you are trying to point to is that I am not the ego which experiences being moved up, but rather "that thing" which is aware of it? What is the difference between being aware of an experience vs. experiencing something? Is it the identification with the belief of experiencing something vs. not-identifying with that which I'm experiencing? It seems to me like the quote below tries to point to the same key insight:

25 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Another way to say this... while moving the thought up scale “oh, ok, this is how I’m creating emotion”. 

One paradigm: “This is how I understand what I’m experiencing, this is how I learn about myself”

Another paradigm: “Well fuck me. I’ve been creating these emotions I’m experiencing this whole time.” 

The difference is subtle and profound. 

What I'm "struggling" though with that insight is, while I do think that truly grasping this insight is profound, reading it ain't gonna make me truly grasp the insight. Insights from the relative domain, I can take home rather easily, as it is "known territory". I quickly get it.

But with these 'absolute/being the creator insights', while I do kinda get it, at the same time I know that it will be a "holy shit :o" moment, when I reall grasp it. It's a bit like being in a limbo, I kinda see that I'm creating this, but at the same time, I don't understand how. Sometimes I get it more, sometimes I get it less.

So what I'm mostly taking away from that is simply inspecting experience and beliefs, until it reeeaaally clicks, so that the profoundness of that insight actualizes "into the living experience".

41 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What’s being missing is that is all about a unicorn, which you never actually experience. 

Referring to the above (correct me if I'm wrong), from the relative perspective: The only thing which I experience is my own thoughts, but not actually the thought of other people. The only thing which I experience are my own beliefs.

And from the absolute perspective: Simply awareness being aware of it.

46 minutes ago, Nahm said:

“Social interaction” is not direct experience. Direct experience is of the thought “social interaction”... and perception

This means that I can't actually "move social interaction up the scale", but only the thoughts and perceptions about "social interaction".

51 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Mistaking this, one begins to paint social interaction as cumbersome to say the least, or “the problem” in more intense thought attachment cases, and this leads to ‘realms’ like narcissism, or missing one’s own projection of one’s own monkey mind. “Social interaction” is literally whatever you believe it is, if you believe your thoughts in the first place.  

(When I use the term monkey mind btw, it’s not meant derogatory, it point’s to you are not a monkey...and that’s why monkey mind feels ‘off’... look past any ‘beating up on yourself’ and see the liberation pointed to)

Lots of inspection material right there. Thank you!

Btw, I find it absolutely hilarious to see myself as a primitive monkey strolling around the world. Thought about creating an art series out of this. A monkey in an office, monkey porn, monkeys at a festival etc. Maybe I'll draw all of these out, one day. ?

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Mind if I record a quick explanation and email it to you? Maybe you could give me feedback, like ‘great as it is’, or ‘change this or that’ to make it clearer?

I'd be most honored. ?

53 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Moving a thought up the scale is bursting a belief bubble which = the betterment and enhancement (via injection of more true nature & goodness) of & “into” the living experience. 

Woooow, alright, now this is super insightful. Makes total sense. Amazing man, thank you for the elaborate response! :)

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16 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

So what you are trying to point to is that I am not the ego which experiences being moved up....., but rather "that thing" which is aware of it? What is the difference between being aware of an experience vs. experiencing something? Is it the identification with the belief of experiencing something vs. not-identifying with that which I'm experiencing? It seems to me like the quote below tries to point to the same key insight:

What I'm "struggling" though with that insight is, while I do think that truly grasping this insight is profound, reading it ain't gonna make me truly grasp the insight. Insights from the relative domain, I can take home rather easily, as it is "known territory". I quickly get it.

But with these 'absolute/being the creator insights', while I do kinda get it, at the same time I know that it will be a "holy shit :o" moment, when I reall grasp it. It's a bit like being in a limbo, I kinda see that I'm creating this, but at the same time, I don't understand how. Sometimes I get it more, sometimes I get it less.

So what I'm mostly taking away from that is simply inspecting experience and beliefs, until it reeeaaally clicks, so that the profoundness of that insight actualizes "into the living experience".

Referring to the above (correct me if I'm wrong), from the relative perspective: The only thing which I experience is my own thoughts, but not actually the thought of other people. The only thing which I experience are my own beliefs.

And from the absolute perspective: Simply awareness being aware of it.

This means that I can't actually "move social interaction up the scale", but only the thoughts and perceptions about "social interaction".

Lots of inspection material right there. Thank you!

:x

Mostly yes, and some examples would be ego, that thing which is aware, identification, relative perspective, absolute perspective.  These are conceptual. As concept/communication it is helpful, but as new beliefs it is not. If you were trying to open a lock box safe, and someone told you the 4 digit combination, you’d then turn to the safe and forget or disregard the combination. 

Though no, in regard to perception. There’s no work to do on perception. It’s perfect as it is. 

16 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Btw, I find it absolutely hilarious to see myself as a primitive monkey strolling around the world. Thought about creating an art series out of this. A monkey in an office, monkey porn, monkeys at a festival etc. Maybe I'll draw all of these out, one day. ?

It is hilarious. That’d be a sweet show! 

16 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

I'd be most honored. ?

Woooow, alright, now this is super insightful. Makes total sense. Amazing man, thank you for the elaborate response! :)

Thank you ?. Emailed it but I don’t think it’s going through. Probably have to change the file type from iMovie and compress it etc. At this point I think I’ll just post it on YouTube. I very much appreciate your willingness to give feedback, I’m thinkin maybe I’ll compress the other video when it’s done, the part 2, and send ya that one. This one’s a few minutes, not much to give feedback on really. ? 


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NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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12 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Mostly yes, and some examples would be ego, that thing which is aware, identification, relative perspective, absolute perspective.

By "examples", do you mean examples for the things I'm not?

15 minutes ago, Nahm said:

These are conceptual. As concept/communication it is helpful, but as new beliefs it is not. If you were trying to open a lock box safe, and someone told you the 4 digit combination, you’d then turn to the safe and forget or disregard the combination. 

Though no, in regard to perception. There’s no work to do on perception. It’s perfect as it is. 

Alrighty! :)

17 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Thank you ?. Emailed it but I don’t think it’s going through. Probably have to change the file type from iMovie and compress it etc. At this point I think I’ll just post it on YouTube. I very much appreciate your willingness to give feedback, I’m thinkin maybe I’ll compress the other video when it’s done, the part 2, and send ya that one. This one’s a few minutes, not much to give feedback on really. ? 

Yep, I didn't receive the e-mail. I'll give you feedback, once it's online. :)

Other than that, as far as I'm concerned, there is a maximum file size for attachments on e-mails. My e-mail client has a maximum upload size of 25mb for example. So the way to go might be uploading the video to a cloud, and then sending the link.

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27 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

By "examples", do you mean examples for the things I'm not?

Yes. 

27 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Yep, I didn't receive the e-mail. I'll give you feedback, once it's online. :)

Awesome, thanks! 

27 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

Other than that, as far as I'm concerned, there is a maximum file size for attachments on e-mails. My e-mail client has a maximum upload size of 25mb for example. So the way to go might be uploading the video to a cloud, and then sending the link.

Thanks! 

Should be uploaded soon. YouTube processing takes a while. 


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NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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@Nahm

Just watched the video, thought I'll just give the feedback here.

I like the 'off the cuff' style of the video. It really makes it feel face-to-face. The content is super straight to the point. Like a good rapper wastes no ink, you don't waste your breath.

And what's especially helpful are the spheres and analogies. They make your points very illustrative and pleasant to digest. Especially the "seeing the reality as it is" one, as well as the "bubbles popping, splashing your face with goodness", were amazing. Don't wanna brownnose here, but I think it's nice to hear, not only that I found it good, but also, why I found it so great. So yeah, good stuff. :)

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@EmptyVase

Much appreciated! ?? 

Learning and getting a feel and scope as I go... seems like the way to go is a longer video with an overview, and very short follow ups with ‘bring it home’ or ‘dot connecting’ single points might be most helpful. 


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27 minutes ago, Nahm said:

seems like the way to go is a longer video with an overview, and very short follow ups with ‘bring it home’ or ‘dot connecting’ single points might be most helpful. 

Sounds amazing! Seems like with that way, you cover both width and depth. Longer videos for the meta view, zooming out. Shorter videos for more detailed explanations, zooming in.

A suggestion came to mind. Nothing big, but I always find it super helpful when YouTubers create playlists for topics. As an example, one could put the longer video as the first video in the playlist, for the overarching overview. And then come the shorter follow up videos. The playlist could then be named after whatever topic is being addressed. That'd neatly tie all of this together. Just as an idea! ✌️

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Disciplines

Science, Religion, Philosophy, Spirituality, Art.

All of these disciplines are ways to access and understand Creation. They seem different on their surface, as they all have a very unique flavor. Deep deep down, in their very core, they are the same though.

All of those words and their implications behind them are concepts. If one blindly believes in any of these concepts, it becomes dogma. Dogma and belief veil the one, undivided Truth behind them.

All of these concepts are man-made. They do not exist independent of our concepts. This is not to be confused with Creation, creating.

These disciplines can be used for different purposes, other than for the discovery of Reality. This is what makes them so unique and beautiful. Creation, or creativity is flowing through all of them. But that is also the same thing, which divides them. If any of these disciplines are being used for different purposes, they seem to be very different from one another. When they branch off from their core, they start to acquire their unique touch. They start to look and feel different. That's the beauty of manifested reality.

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Burning Karma

I find the idea to burn excess karma to be incredibly important, in order to authentically abide in Beingness. If I can't sit in stillness, I will burn the wood in the fire. Once the fire goes extinct, it is natural and simple to fall back into what is.

Ideally, what is being burned serves my own wellbeing on all levels: physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. Even more so, once the identity expands beyond the body, it is nice to spread the love, and serve the world, by burning through ones own karma. This ties back to our individual life purpose.

I like Sadhgurus description of Karma Yoga.

 

 

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Life is not happening to you.

Life is happening for you.

So anytime, you think to yourself "Why is this happening to me?", ask yourself: Why is this happening for me?

On a deeper level, one could ask: Why am I creating this for myself?

The answer, across all levels, is Love. You will start at love and you will end at love because there is neither start nor end. See for yourself, why that is. Don't believe it. 

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