Free Will vs Determinism

[The0Self]

24 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@The0Self How do you know that a snake doesn't experience meaning at all? Are you looking through the eyes of a snake or a human? What is the difference, were humans not once snakes? When did humans develop the concept of meaning? 100 million years ago when we diverged from snakes? If not, when? When we became monkeys? Does a monkey experience meaning? If not, why not? If they do, why dont snakes? Is meaning something thats out there in the world, or something that humans made up? Meaning is after all different from everyone, how do you know that a snakes meaning is such that it has no meaning?

Even if they didn't have meaning, the snake is still an ego because it has recognized itself as different from his environment and seeks to preserve itsself. Which is the fundamental nature of what an ego is. 

Even assuming that we came from monkeys is you imbuing your experience with meaning — that this is coming from somewhere. Not that I wouldn’t do the same, but it wouldn’t come from any knowledge, it would simply be something this character appeared to do. With that said, the human, and only the human, as far as it seems, seems to develop an apparent me in very early childhood. Before this, they get by with regular sensorimotor function just as any animal would, and continue to when they’re an adult — the adult just has the added “me.” It’s entirely possible that in some people, the me never actually even apparently develops. (It’s not actually there in anyone...) No action really proves whether or not there’s an apparent me there, because anything can happen, there is only everything, and no one outside of everything that could know everything. “God” can perhaps pretend to forget that it’s everything, in order to know things; be interested; enjoy the ride... but animals are just life — everything makes sense; no room for meaning (“makes sense“ in that there’s no one to make sense of what seems to be happening; no certainty; no doubt).

Edited October 29, 2020 by The0Self

[Byun Sean]

1 hour ago, SS10 said:

@Byun Sean Look im not sure you understand what I am saying. In the wild, when humans saw lions/snakes, and we received the emotion of fear. It is instinctive to respond in the fight or flight mode. If you wanted to find out what caused that fear and were it came from (the same way in which you wanna do with thoughts), you have such will to do so,but it would result in the possible death from that very snake/lion. God imposes the limit of not knowing where thoughts come from on on you (or on himself technically), so it can better his (your) survival. From the snakes perspective, doesn't matter why he is hungry, the snake doesn't think why it it hungry just that it is hungry - it just responds on such emotion, resulting in its attempt to eat you. If the snake truly realized that the emotion of hunger came out of nowhere and there was no meaning to it - it would literally be the end of his life. So what I am saying is that God imposes that thoughts / emotions come from nowhere for your on good/survival.

Precisely. If you get this insight directly, you will die.

This is what is referred to as enlightenment, moksha, liberation, tao, etc.

The question is only if you are interested in truth, love, and consciousness or if you wish to stay playing the game of survival.

The choice is yours.

[Moksha]

7 minutes ago, Byun Sean said:

The choice is yours.

Is it though?

[Byun Sean]

4 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Is it though?

from the egos perspective yes. 

from the absolute perspective no. 

[Moksha]

4 minutes ago, Byun Sean said:

from the egos perspective yes. 

from the absolute perspective no. 

Since the ego will never choose enlightenment I guess he's screwed

[SS10]

@Byun Sean you make my point

[Someone here]

@SS10

Sit down and stop your thoughts for 30 seconds. If you could we will conclude that you have free will. If you couldn't.. We will conclude that you don't have free will. 

[Claymoree]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

@SS10

Sit down and stop your thoughts for 30 seconds. If you could we will conclude that you have free will. If you couldn't.. We will conclude that you don't have free will. 

What about just sitting for 30 seconds, dos it count as free will? 

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Claymoree said:

What about just sitting for 30 seconds, dos it count as free will? 

No. Nothing counts as free will. You have as much control over your life as you have over my life. Zero. 

[SS10]

@Someone here By you telling my to do a action, you imply that i have the will to do such action.

[from chaos into self]

8 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@Someone here By you telling my to do a action, you imply that i have the will to do such action.

No, that choice is deterministic. You’re confusing choices with free will. Choices are predetermined. You will either do as he says out of curiosity, or disobey out of disbelief. And really, you are responding to his comment, replying to it. Very predictable. Of course you would say what you have said.

Edited October 30, 2020 by from chaos into self

[Someone here]

21 minutes ago, SS10 said:

@Someone here By you telling my to do a action, you imply that i have the will to do such action.

Stop with the nonsense.. This isn't about conceptual games . Sit down and LOOk and OBSERVE how your thoughts and actions come about. 

[Fran11]

Consciousness isn't deterministic. But when it restricts itself to the Human dream it doesn't have unlimited Free Will either.

There are degrees of Free Will according to level of Consciousness and Ego-Idenfication.

The reason people argue that they can't stop/direct their thoughts and that proves no Free Will, is becouse they are trying to do so from a place of Ego-Identification and low Concentration abilies. Of course you can't stop/direct thoughts when you feel like you yourself are a thought.

If you rise your level of Consciousness and develop your Concentration, you can stop your thoughts/direct them the way you want. That's Will.

To the objection that the impulse to Concentrate came from no-where in the first place... yes, it came from no-where, and what made that exact impulse come out of no-where and no other, is precisely your Will. 

And to the objection that impulses/thoughts are determined by previous experiences... they are not determined, but they certainly are influenced and the choice is limited. That's why I say that within the Human-dream Free Will is not Infinite.

The "No-Self" perspective is useful becouse it helps to realise the unreality of the Ego, but it's not the ultimate. You do have a Self... it's God 

So don't get too stuck on that once it has served it's propose, and go deeper.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Fran11

[The0Self]

@Fran11 In a sense there isn’t free will, but there also isn’t not-free will.

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, The0Self said:

@Fran11 In a sense there isn’t free will, but there also isn’t not-free will.

Yes, that's a good way to put it because no concept can do justice to reality.

This is a complicated issue and it requires accessing high levels of consciousness and very careful contemplation to really understand.

[The0Self]

8 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Yes, that's a good way to put it because no concept can do justice to reality.

This is a complicated issue and it requires accessing high levels of consciousness and very careful contemplation to really understand.

When will stops, so does reality. So, reality is contingent, meaning empty. What is is only what is. What has no basis doesn’t even actually have no-basis.

[Claymoree]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Stop with the nonsense.. This isn't about conceptual games . Sit down and LOOk and OBSERVE how your thoughts and actions come about. 

why are you asking to take action if there is no free will?

 

[Someone here]

59 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

If you rise your level of Consciousness and develop your Concentration, you can stop your thoughts/direct them the way you want. That's Will.

No. The core mistake in this whole free will thing is duality. When you take yourself to be a separate self. There is no you and your thoughts. You can't control your thoughts precisely because you are the thoughts. Instead of being a separate entity that create thoughts 

 

[Shin]

8 hours ago, Someone here said:

@SS10

Sit down and stop your thoughts for 30 seconds. If you could we will conclude that you have free will. If you couldn't.. We will conclude that you don't have free will. 

I can do that, even longer, doesn't prove anything except lots of concentration meditation

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

Instead of being a separate entity that create thoughts 

No need for a separate entity, God (aka YOU) wills the thoughts into existance.